I'm not sure TOR was a bad MMO. I just think they didn't realize who makes up the KOTOR fan base. I doubt that MMO's are a popular choice for that demographic. It kills the fun for me when I'm one of many of the SAME hero. And the respawns. Ugh. I only got it because it was BioWare and learned what I already knew: MMO's are not for me. Period. Don't like or want them and won't ever pay for another.
I actually got really into TOR, but then I had computer issues and then gave up on them. Now that it is going FTP I have even less interest in starting up my level 42 jedi sage again.
I'm saddened by this news and would love to know the real reason for their leaving. But we'll never know unless our beer doc gets too drunk during one of his beer reviews and spills the beans. But i too hate EA with all of what's left of my heart and cried the day that Bioware sold out to ea. Hopefully more studios like obsidian will say screw you ea and find an alternate way to make games and not neccessarily through kickstarter, though it certainly serves a purpose.
As to those who hated ME3's ending...i found nothing wrong with it other than missing a bit of finality. It felt to me as though i started towards the final choice , after dicussion with the starchild and then fast-forwarded to the disapointing end. I was glad when bioware made that wonderful gesture(though no one forced them to) of adding that extra free dlc for the ending. As for the indoctrination theory? It was made by people who don't understand plot at all as the theory itself had so many plot holes in it as to be even worse than the original ending lol too funny i thought to myself.
Hopefully i kept that as vague and spoiler free as possible but left a few teasers for those good folk who've yet to play it.
TOR for me was a game that was released at LEAST 6 months to early. I wanted to like it, I really did, but they were missing some crucial things that I've guess they've added in updates by now. Unfortunately the lack of those has caused their subscription numbers to plummet.
I think the real problem with Bioware lately has been their reactions to negative events.
DA2 was obviously rushed and suffered quite a bit in the way combat flowed (waves from the sky) the way the story branched (it really didn't even though it could/should have) and the way there was one large house map and one cave map reused for the entire game. BW's reaction was that this was the way they intended the game to be all along.
ME3 had an ending that BW must have known would be negatively received. It was jarring when compared to the rest of the series. The response to this was that the people didn't like it were too stupid to appreciate the 'art'.
This kind of negativity towards their own fanbase helps remind me that a company is no more than the people that make it. And the people that made Bioware great back in the day are gone; either here, or at Obsidian, or now retired, or just gone... I mean look at the attempt to create hype for Black Isle because Interplay made a new website.
Long story short: follow the people who made the games you love, not the companies they made famous.
@elminster - I don't doubt that some people like TOR. My point is that I believe some people don't like MMO's and that the BG community is less an MMO group than the general populace. I found the game boring and repetitive and I had no sense of accomplishment. The fights were more watching the skills recharge than the actual action going on (did not like this). And slogging through enemies both to and from the objective downright sucks.
I'm sure some of the class stories are good. They say the sith wizard guy is great, writing-wise. Hard for me to care enough to invest the hours required to see that story (and to re-fight the same encounters 15 times to do so). FTP might salvage some of the players; the money wasn't the issue for me. I literally stopped playing it 2 months into my 3 month subscription - not because of the fee, but because I couldn't be bothered. Definitely didn't get my $110 (plus) out of that one, which is why I don't feel badly that it didn't prove economically successful.
I also have an aversion to any game I can't pause or walk away from. If something comes up, and I have to leave the kbd, either (a) monsters respawn and kill my character (forcing me to waste creds on repairing everything) or (b) the server kicks me off (forcing me to wait for the most ridiculously long loading screen I can remember).
For me, all of this equals a big 'no thanks'. I would maybe pay for a single player version that lets me run around and play all of the stories. MMO - nope.
Word on the street is the when Greg moved to go fix TOR with the TX team, he killed himself to try to get that thing back on track, and just burned himself out. Very sad, to have him burned out by a failed game that seemed like such a sure thing a few years ago.
With the doctors gone from Bioware, only Miyamoto leaving Nintendo is all I need to feel like an "old school" gamer who constantly wants to talk about the good old days, when making games was about fun and variety.
I don´t think the reason of their leaving is much different from Trent Oster´s or others. There is some natural descent of passion for making something like games after many years. What deepened this descent is the fact, that for 5 years you are not able to noticeably influence your games after so much work in your own company. THAT is frustrating. After they looked back at all the companies which were devoured by EA and know they are already a half way there, they decided they have nothing to do in Bioware and have to leave. The company has like 1000 employees now. They must have felt strangers in their own company. With all the frustration they didn´t have nerves to start a gaming company from scratch, so they leaved business, at least for now. Even without EA they would quit eventually, but maybe later, with much better feeling of accomplishing something.
@kilroy_was_here - Yeah, I really agree with this. I think that now that Bioware is a large and estiblished company that it no longer needs to rely on the hardcore original fanbase that supported them when they were still a small struggling company. IRC, the original Bioware founders were all medical students who gave up their job's as doctors to pursue their passion in video games. I think that that kind of drive definitly forged a company that was capable of creating awesome timeless games.
I think that the retiring of these people who were the basis and the spirit of the company shows that the current Bioware is definitly not the Bioware of the early 2000's. It may not be a bad thing, but the current Bioware is defintly a product of its time spent in the Game Industry. I'm not hating on Dragon Age 2 (although I did think it was a subpar game) but the game was definitly optimized for mainstream play (streamlined "one-race" character creation, lack of isometric view, etc.). What I'm trying to say here is that Bioware won't really listen current fans beacuse they don't really need to; their profit will only be very minorly scratched by the few hardcore fans that refuse to buy it as they have a much broader fanbase that will take whatever Bioware makes and love it.
In a sense I can understand the current mainstream fanbase's sentiments, because I still honestly believe Bioware is a leading and innovative company in creating RPGs. But they're definitly not the same small company that created such classics like Baldur's Gate and KOTOR 1. (IMO, I'm banking my money on CD Projekt, the Witcher 1 and 2 were amazing and any company that translates and localizes the Baldur's Gate series is A+ amazing in my book)
Considering neither of them have any immediate plans in the industry (both are currently moving on to different things) this doesn't look like the old school EA absorption. Usually when there is EA trouble the big names in a company just move on to a different one or start their own.
Plus I think people overreact to EA these days, when they ruin a company, it is really obvious. You can argue about Dragon Age and Mass Effect all you want, but compare that to Origin getting bought up, the Ultima series suddenly went bad, really bad.
I was not one of those people that whine like there was no tomorrow over ME3. But I was disappointed in how mediocre it ended up to be both as an RPG and shooter.
I want to believe that Dragon Age 3 will be better then DA2 to but I shouldn't be this optimistic when so many talents have left the company.
@Dragonspear There should be an ME3 support group. lol It probably sounds pathetic, but after I finished ME3 I felt a little hollow inside. I was actually depressed for a few days, moping around. ME1 and ME2 were replayed like crazy. I can't even bring myself to touch ME3 again.
@Arkynomicon: At least they are making the right noises in relation to apparently listening to feedback. I sincerely hope when DA 3 arrives it has more of a feel of an improved DA Origins than the sequel - which in my opinion was largely a hack and slash fest.
@Arkynomicon: At least they are making the right noises in relation to apparently listening to feedback. I sincerely hope when DA 3 arrives it has more of a feel of an improved DA Origins than the sequel - which in my opinion was largely a hack and slash fest.
Yeah, I hope it will be good. But ever since they made that official statement that they wanted the Call of Duty audience I have just given up hope of a return to the good old days.
Wow would you believe I just found out now after all those days by coming across this post?
In any case, good riddance. Those guys have stopped having any influence on Bioware whatsoever a long time ago. It really makes ZERO difference whether they're in or out. I've not seriously enjoyed a Bioware game since Knights of the Old Republic. If it weren't for its employees I would say that this company can go to hell.
By the way, I know it sounds pretty stupid but does anyone know why they sold out to EA? I was under the impression they were doing well at the time of the sell-out.
When they cancelled the premium modules (which was not bio´s fault....) but had to stop almost any support after 1.69 there magical fire burned out for me. Thats it! 2006 or 07 was it when I didnt realy cared about their games anymore. But i have to say that in my oppinion they supported their and our nwn 101% and i will ever be thankfull for that:)
By the way, I know it sounds pretty stupid but does anyone know why they sold out to EA? I was under the impression they were doing well at the time of the sell-out.
Speculation: If you have a family, are pushing 40, and some guy comes up to you and starts shoving bags of money into your arms, then more bags of money, and then a few more ... You probably aren't going to turn him down.
By the way, I know it sounds pretty stupid but does anyone know why they sold out to EA? I was under the impression they were doing well at the time of the sell-out.
"Speculation: If you have a family, are pushing 40, and some guy comes up to you and starts shoving bags of money into your arms, then more bags of money, and then a few more ... You probably aren't going to turn him down."
At the time, both Greg and Ray said they joined EA for shared resources, to do more and bigger projects. I think they were feeling like they wanted to be teachers and guides to a new generation of designers and transition away from just being heads of a small studio. It seems like they found that life can be harder and less rewarding, especially Greg. My take is that they thought EA would be a place to gradually wind down, and instead got burned out.
@vortican: Oh great, I can already see the criticisms about Oster and the 'whiny elitist fans' coming. Afterall, people are quick to judge nowadays, denial or not.
Comments
http://blog.bioware.com/2012/09/18/from-aaryn-flynn/
As to those who hated ME3's ending...i found nothing wrong with it other than missing a bit of finality. It felt to me as though i started towards the final choice , after dicussion with the starchild and then fast-forwarded to the disapointing end. I was glad when bioware made that wonderful gesture(though no one forced them to) of adding that extra free dlc for the ending. As for the indoctrination theory? It was made by people who don't understand plot at all as the theory itself had so many plot holes in it as to be even worse than the original ending lol too funny i thought to myself.
Hopefully i kept that as vague and spoiler free as possible but left a few teasers for those good folk who've yet to play it.
DA2 was obviously rushed and suffered quite a bit in the way combat flowed (waves from the sky) the way the story branched (it really didn't even though it could/should have) and the way there was one large house map and one cave map reused for the entire game. BW's reaction was that this was the way they intended the game to be all along.
ME3 had an ending that BW must have known would be negatively received. It was jarring when compared to the rest of the series. The response to this was that the people didn't like it were too stupid to appreciate the 'art'.
This kind of negativity towards their own fanbase helps remind me that a company is no more than the people that make it. And the people that made Bioware great back in the day are gone; either here, or at Obsidian, or now retired, or just gone... I mean look at the attempt to create hype for Black Isle because Interplay made a new website.
Long story short: follow the people who made the games you love, not the companies they made famous.
I'm sure some of the class stories are good. They say the sith wizard guy is great, writing-wise. Hard for me to care enough to invest the hours required to see that story (and to re-fight the same encounters 15 times to do so). FTP might salvage some of the players; the money wasn't the issue for me. I literally stopped playing it 2 months into my 3 month subscription - not because of the fee, but because I couldn't be bothered. Definitely didn't get my $110 (plus) out of that one, which is why I don't feel badly that it didn't prove economically successful.
I also have an aversion to any game I can't pause or walk away from. If something comes up, and I have to leave the kbd, either (a) monsters respawn and kill my character (forcing me to waste creds on repairing everything) or (b) the server kicks me off (forcing me to wait for the most ridiculously long loading screen I can remember).
For me, all of this equals a big 'no thanks'. I would maybe pay for a single player version that lets me run around and play all of the stories. MMO - nope.
With the doctors gone from Bioware, only Miyamoto leaving Nintendo is all I need to feel like an "old school" gamer who constantly wants to talk about the good old days, when making games was about fun and variety.
I think that the retiring of these people who were the basis and the spirit of the company shows that the current Bioware is definitly not the Bioware of the early 2000's. It may not be a bad thing, but the current Bioware is defintly a product of its time spent in the Game Industry. I'm not hating on Dragon Age 2 (although I did think it was a subpar game) but the game was definitly optimized for mainstream play (streamlined "one-race" character creation, lack of isometric view, etc.). What I'm trying to say here is that Bioware won't really listen current fans beacuse they don't really need to; their profit will only be very minorly scratched by the few hardcore fans that refuse to buy it as they have a much broader fanbase that will take whatever Bioware makes and love it.
In a sense I can understand the current mainstream fanbase's sentiments, because I still honestly believe Bioware is a leading and innovative company in creating RPGs. But they're definitly not the same small company that created such classics like Baldur's Gate and KOTOR 1. (IMO, I'm banking my money on CD Projekt, the Witcher 1 and 2 were amazing and any company that translates and localizes the Baldur's Gate series is A+ amazing in my book)
http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1609815/mass_effect_fan_negativity_was_too_much_for_ray_greg_exbioware_dev.html
Plus I think people overreact to EA these days, when they ruin a company, it is really obvious. You can argue about Dragon Age and Mass Effect all you want, but compare that to Origin getting bought up, the Ultima series suddenly went bad, really bad.
I want to believe that Dragon Age 3 will be better then DA2 to but I shouldn't be this optimistic when so many talents have left the company.
In any case, good riddance. Those guys have stopped having any influence on Bioware whatsoever a long time ago. It really makes ZERO difference whether they're in or out. I've not seriously enjoyed a Bioware game since Knights of the Old Republic. If it weren't for its employees I would say that this company can go to hell.
By the way, I know it sounds pretty stupid but does anyone know why they sold out to EA? I was under the impression they were doing well at the time of the sell-out.
Speculation: If you have a family, are pushing 40, and some guy comes up to you and starts shoving bags of money into your arms, then more bags of money, and then a few more ... You probably aren't going to turn him down.
"Speculation: If you have a family, are pushing 40, and some guy comes up to you and starts shoving bags of money into your arms, then more bags of money, and then a few more ... You probably aren't going to turn him down."
At the time, both Greg and Ray said they joined EA for shared resources, to do more and bigger projects. I think they were feeling like they wanted to be teachers and guides to a new generation of designers and transition away from just being heads of a small studio. It seems like they found that life can be harder and less rewarding, especially Greg.
My take is that they thought EA would be a place to gradually wind down, and instead got burned out.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/BioWare-Doctors-Fan-Negativity,18015.html