@BelleSorciere my take on it was just that trying to match one thing or another as a nonbinary person is nonsense for most of 'em, and as a nonbinary trans person who is woman-aligned in some ways but mostly just "not a man" I can attest that's true for me for sure. If you meant it another way @KcoQuidam feel free to elaborate!
And by the way @KcoQuidam I love your reply here and agree with it very much, although it is certainly true that some trans people do feel abnormal and broken which is why I didn't want to come at @Ashiel for her lived experience of transness, since it's just as valid to feel that way. But I do definitely gel more with your position here than hers, and feel that the vast majority of what I experience as "broken" and "abnormal" feeling is because of society/culture (and other people Othering me and dehumanizing me as a result of things that are normalized for them because of society/culture), rather than something internal to me. I really appreciate what you've written here, and feel it in my bones (and I appreciate your shoutout to nb trans folks like me!)!
I am not sure what you're getting at re: "nonbinary people (for whom the sexual identity matching thing is...a total nonsense)" - are you saying nonbinary transgender people don't ever need to transition or are you saying something else that I am missing?
Maybe me who have really badly write it. I nether wanting say nonbinary people don't ever need transition, I think it's a total personal thing some want, some other don't that pretty much the same thing as the other trans people : a lot of different experience.
The thing I wanna say it's just for nonbinary people (in my definition: people who don't identity as men or women) there no "actual sex" that correspond to their gender identity in the view of the society (cause society is a binary thing, and split sex between "male" and "female"). You can't have a "nonbinary sex" cause ... that doesn't exist (still in society seeing, clearly not my thoughts) so you can't change your sex to "correspond" to your gender identity. That's why I call that "corresponding thing" a nonsense. That not "you don't need transition" but more "binary society will nether give you the 'matching seal of approvale', no matter what you'll do".
Not sure this response is more clear... Sorry if that bring more troubles than precisions. I'm not quite sure I use the goods terms for english speakers.
I am not sure what you're getting at re: "nonbinary people (for whom the sexual identity matching thing is...a total nonsense)" - are you saying nonbinary transgender people don't ever need to transition or are you saying something else that I am missing?
Maybe me who have really badly write it. I nether wanting say nonbinary people don't ever need transition, I think it's a total personal thing some want, some other don't that pretty much the same thing as the other trans people : a lot of different experience.
The thing I wanna say it's just for nonbinary people (in my definition: people who don't identity as men or women) there no "actual sex" that correspond to their gender identity in the view of the society (cause society is a binary thing, and split sex between "male" and "female"). You can't have a "nonbinary sex" cause ... that doesn't exist (still in society seeing, clearly not my thoughts) so you can't change your sex to "correspond" to your gender identity. That's why I call that "corresponding thing" a nonsense. That not "you don't need transition" but more "binary society will nether give you the matching no matter what you'll do".
Not sure this response is more clear... Sorry if that bring more troubles than precisions. I'm not quite sure I use the goods terms for english speakers.
If it wasn't already clear from my handle, I'm more of a gender nihilist than anything. Maria Lugones' The Coloniality of Gender and Judith Butler's oeuvre, in the academic sense, and both two spirit indigenous people I've been honoured to meet and get to know and nb settler folks like myself, in the more down-to-earth sense, have both greatly informed my own brand of gender nihilism but that manifesto is near and dear to my heart (and also based in part on Lugones' work).
I like that some troll account with 4 posts to their name made this thread to be like "look trans people are angry" and now it's turned into a trans lovefest for the game and each other, we are so resilient and wonderful and I just love trans folks so much right now tbh
Same here, actually. I follow their blog and have since long before that manifesto went up, through url changes and online drama lmao
I remember the link when it first popped up on their blog, and read it voraciously (and was already a gender nihilist by that point because of her and Alyson/genderkills and other bloggers' discussions in that vein lol)
I didn't want to come at @Ashiel for her lived experience of transness, since it's just as valid to feel that way.
I have post mostly because the definition of transness she have shared was really far from the one I know & use. But since I use the french and the "define and mostly share by the trans people"-definition (still as a french speaker) I could have be wrong from the very start in my expression if the english definition are different (not saying I would have more agree).
That a total valid way to feel clearly. I don't blame anybody for feeling that way.
I'll look the link you give ^^. Thank for the share.
@BelleSorciere happy it clear the thing ^^'. Sorry for the first bad phrasing.
*sigh* I just want to play Baldur's Gate again. Ever since this update, I can't play with my mods so I'm waiting for the mods to catch up before I continue trying to play it. I need my Sword Coast Stratagems and NPC Project. (T_T)
I was able to install the BG tweaks mod to both BG1 and BG2 EE 2.1 - so far it seems to be working fine. Don't know if SCS will install, although I will find out soon enough since I think I need it for Ascension.
*sigh* I just want to play Baldur's Gate again. Ever since this update, I can't play with my mods so I'm waiting for the mods to catch up before I continue trying to play it. I need my Sword Coast Stratagems and NPC Project. (T_T)
I didn't see Finch in your needs... THAT is a radical viewpoint.
*sigh* I just want to play Baldur's Gate again. Ever since this update, I can't play with my mods so I'm waiting for the mods to catch up before I continue trying to play it. I need my Sword Coast Stratagems and NPC Project. (T_T)
I didn't see Finch in your needs... THAT is a radical viewpoint.
*sigh* I just want to play Baldur's Gate again. Ever since this update, I can't play with my mods so I'm waiting for the mods to catch up before I continue trying to play it. I need my Sword Coast Stratagems and NPC Project. (T_T)
I didn't see Finch in your needs... THAT is a radical viewpoint.
You just said direct and simple answer when she replied about her name. That would = "I like the name better" that is direct and simple, as it should be.
By that standard, the answer all NPCs would give to questions is "Yes", "No", and "Because".
If someone asks why you got a car, and you say "I liked it better" when the reasons actually were "It gets better gas mileage than the other one I was looking at, and the seats were really comfortable when I tried it out", yes, you may have given a "direct and simple" answer (and it's not actually a lie), but you didn't really answer the question.
The funny thing is, Mizhena DOES give the answer you want: when you ask her why her name is strange, she gives a "direct and simple" answer that doesn't mention her transgenderism at all. It is only if charname isn't satisfied and asks for more detail that she gives a more detailed (but still short and straightforward) answer that reveals it (and only it; she doesn't talk about extraneous details like how and when she found out, if she magically transitioned, etc.).
So, that's exactly what you wanted, right? There's no problem, right?
Not at all, I don't want the only interesting thing about the transsexual to be that he/she is a transsexual. I don't want him/her to be a token character that even myself refer to her as the transsexual character. And don't argue she's a cleric there are many dozens of clerics in the game they are not interesting. This all kicked up because A. Token character(as I explained) B. You don't get a characters sexual preferance/preference of gender straight off the bat from anyone in game, and when u do eventually get it. It either takes time or a character stat check and C. The majority of interesting characters you have evil choices to interact with them. Here transsexual the only thing making them interesting you can't be evil to.
I find that to be a good basic summary of the character.
Having watched the video you linked, I think I've realized why stuff like this seems token to some people and not-token to others, and it mostly comes to his definition of flat vs round characters and traits. I've wholly decided that it comes down to this.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is lazy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is grumpy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is stinky. You walk into a pub, the bartender is stupid. You walk into a pub, the bartender speaks french. You walk into a pub, the bartender is friendly. You walk into a pub, the bartender is happy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is racist. You walk into a pub, the bartender is preachy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is comical. You walk into a pub, the bartender is transsexual.
Wait a second... Now for a lot of people, "is transsexual", is a perfectly fine trait to decorate a flat character with. For a lot of people, this feels "forced" because to them, a character's flat traits are usually things like personality traits, social traits (like their clothing), and their professions. In the same way that people would see the grumpy bartender, the happy bartender, and the gay bartender with the latter being different from the former two, I think this gives a lot of people pause.
Anytime something like sexuality or race are used to define a flat character, it comes off as feeling forced to a lot of people. I'd dare say because, to many people, those aren't personality traits or traits that matter, and it feels very artificial (or even offensive) when a flat character's tiny bit of personality is summed up as "the gay" or something.
Mind you, this isn't an argument or anything. Just a sort of realization that hit me while watching the video. Because during the video, I couldn't help but to ask why those are the traits that matter on a flat character, as opposed to any other defining features of their personality. Mayhaps this is where the disconnect is coming from.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is lazy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is grumpy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is stinky. You walk into a pub, the bartender is stupid. You walk into a pub, the bartender speaks french. You walk into a pub, the bartender is friendly. You walk into a pub, the bartender is happy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is racist. You walk into a pub, the bartender is preachy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is comical. You walk into a pub, the bartender is transsexual.
I can see what you're getting at, but I think the way you worded it, it makes "transsexual" stick out. There are a plethora of traits that this could be compared to that would make a lot more sense. For example:
You walk into a pub, the bartender is single. You walk into a pub, the bartender is married. You walk into a pub, the bartender is loud. You walk into a pub, the bartender speaks klingon. You walk into a pub, the bartender is gay. You walk into a pub, the bartender is divorced. You walk into a pub, the bartender is transsexual. You walk into a pub, the bartender has only one leg. You walk into a pub, the bartender is creepy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is young.
When looking at that list, I don't think it sticks out quite as much. And that's the point that is being made here. Somehow it's acceptable for someone to tell you that they're mad at their wife or that their child ran off, or that their husband was beating them and now he's dead in an alley and they need 100 gold to dispose of the body (another SoD reference)... but it's somehow not okay for them to tell you they used to be a boy.
So I think you're onto something, but I wanted to point out that it extends far beyond "the bartender is happy" and into much deeper areas.
Having watched the video you linked, I think I've realized why stuff like this seems token to some people and not-token to others, and it mostly comes to his definition of flat vs round characters and traits. I've wholly decided that it comes down to this.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is lazy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is grumpy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is stinky. You walk into a pub, the bartender is stupid. You walk into a pub, the bartender speaks french. You walk into a pub, the bartender is friendly. You walk into a pub, the bartender is happy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is racist. You walk into a pub, the bartender is preachy. You walk into a pub, the bartender is comical. You walk into a pub, the bartender is transsexual.
Wait a second... Now for a lot of people, "is transsexual", is a perfectly fine trait to decorate a flat character with. For a lot of people, this feels "forced" because to them, a character's flat traits are usually things like personality traits, social traits (like their clothing), and their professions. In the same way that people would see the grumpy bartender, the happy bartender, and the gay bartender with the latter being different from the former two, I think this gives a lot of people pause.
Anytime something like sexuality or race are used to define a flat character, it comes off as feeling forced to a lot of people. I'd dare say because, to many people, those aren't personality traits or traits that matter, and it feels very artificial (or even offensive) when a flat character's tiny bit of personality is summed up as "the gay" or something.
Mind you, this isn't an argument or anything. Just a sort of realization that hit me while watching the video. Because during the video, I couldn't help but to ask why those are the traits that matter on a flat character, as opposed to any other defining features of their personality. Mayhaps this is where the disconnect is coming from.
But he addresses this in the video, which is to say that it's a hypocritical double-standard when no NPC who mentions his wife in his one line is accused of pushing a heteronormative agenda, despite being a heterosexual by implication in the same way Mizhena is trans by implication (notice that the example he uses, like Mizhena, is one that doesn't mention "heterosexuality" any more than Mizhena mentions "transgender/transsexual" at all in her dialogue, it's all by implication). So if an implied status that people can easily infer on a minor NPC = "agenda" then the vast majority of CRPG NPCs have agendas attached, which is why the argument that it's forced based on a brief mention is silly (especially when it's an already fairly well-rounded merchant NPC, and not uniquely so either since other merchant NPCs throughout the Baldur's Gate series have been as involved - and more involved in some case - in quests as Mizhena).
You just said direct and simple answer when she replied about her name. That would = "I like the name better" that is direct and simple, as it should be.
By that standard, the answer all NPCs would give to questions is "Yes", "No", and "Because".
If someone asks why you got a car, and you say "I liked it better" when the reasons actually were "It gets better gas mileage than the other one I was looking at, and the seats were really comfortable when I tried it out", yes, you may have given a "direct and simple" answer (and it's not actually a lie), but you didn't really answer the question.
The funny thing is, Mizhena DOES give the answer you want: when you ask her why her name is strange, she gives a "direct and simple" answer that doesn't mention her transgenderism at all. It is only if charname isn't satisfied and asks for more detail that she gives a more detailed (but still short and straightforward) answer that reveals it (and only it; she doesn't talk about extraneous details like how and when she found out, if she magically transitioned, etc.).
So, that's exactly what you wanted, right? There's no problem, right?
Not at all, I don't want the only interesting thing about the transsexual to be that he/she is a transsexual. I don't want him/her to be a token character that even myself refer to her as the transsexual character. And don't argue she's a cleric there are many dozens of clerics in the game they are not interesting. This all kicked up because A. Token character(as I explained) B. You don't get a characters sexual preferance/preference of gender straight off the bat from anyone in game, and when u do eventually get it. It either takes time or a character stat check and C. The majority of interesting characters you have evil choices to interact with them. Here transsexual the only thing making them interesting you can't be evil to.
I find that to be a good basic summary of the character.
"The Girdle of Bathroom Legislation" killed me. I died laughing.
I think my favourite part is where he says: "If it came down to a mutually exclusive choice between round trans characters and flat trans characters in our media, I'm obviously going to go with round[...]but why can't we have both?"
Like, as a trans person, yes, give me trans wallflowers in worlds that have been packed full of cis wallflowers for all of gaming's history up to this point! I want the one-line NPC who says basically nothing but "I hate those darn Iron Throne weirdos, they're scary and mean!" along with a personal detail ("and they're mean because they pushed my little one-legged Timmy and broke his crutch!" "and they're mean because they gave my pet dog Scampy a dirty look and gave him self-esteem issues!" "and they're mean because they stole my potion of fire breath I was going to use at my twin grandchildren's birthday party!") every time you click on them to talk to them to sometimes be trans ("and they're mean because they called my sister a boy just because our moms can't afford magic to give her the body she deserves!")! Why not? I want trans representation among the very round and the very flat (and of course, I want to see representation in between the extremes as well)!
I think you guys are misunderstanding my point. My point is that it seems that there is an illusion going on here. A sort of mental mirage as it were. See, we're a super-minority (like less than 1/100 here, which is still a lot of people added up but it wouldn't be unfair to say we're very uncommon), so we tend to stand out more when we pop up.
Looking at the first list I provided, each of those things tells you something important about your character's personality (except the speaking french, I was sleepy and I have no idea where that came from; I think my train of thought derailed for a bit). For example, Winthorp in Candlekeep is a joker. That jackass who owns the Copper Coronet is a bad guy. Noober is irritating. So on, so forth, yadda-yadda.
(I'm going to note that having being transsexual placed into the same trait grouping as having a peg leg is pretty hilarious and eerily accurate in some senses.)
Now, the rarer something is, the more it's going to stand out and not get glossed over by your brain, but at the same time the fewer other traits it has alongside it, the more alone it's going to see. Essentially, being flat makes it stand out a lot more.
Which is why the "round" characters don't seem to illicit these sorts of responses, because round characters feel more fleshed out and it doesn't feel like a gimmick. It's a play on the boiling frog effect.
By the same token, however, when we reach the point where it is no longer shocking and unusual to see a trans character (as we are getting with gay and lesbian characters), then it will no longer be controversial when a flat one occurs, same as virtually nobody cares about a random black NPC.
(If you can't tell, I'm still sleepy) Put another way, most people aren't even going to notice traits that are so common as to be assumed. For example, even in Faerun, it's probably pretty natural to suspect that everyone has a mother and a father at least biologically speaking, even in a world where shapeshifing is a thing, it's probably not common enough that people wouldn't do a double-take if you had two mothers or two fathers or something.
So when someone mentions they have a wife or husband (of the opposite sex), being that heterosexuality is in fact more prevalent, it doesn't stand out very much when you see it so your brain doesn't even register it in the first place as much of anything, in the same way you don't take close examination of the grass in the park, because it's a park and you assume grass is going to be present. In fact, if you go to the park, and there is no grass, it's going to seem all the more remarkable.
So what I'm saying is, I think that a lot of the character's perceived tokenism, stems from these tricks of the mind. I realized this while watching the video and comparing to what others were saying. Tons and tons of people had a powerful reaction to Mizhena (good or ill), but as others noted in this thread, if compared to other NPCs who do info dumps (such as Mirriane in Beregost) she seems to stick out to our brains more.
And when our brains aren't noticing much else to the character (because it's being mostly overshadowed by this trait that our brain focuses on really hard) then it might appear that the character is token, because the character seems to stand out but only because of this one thing.
The reason Mizhena seems to stand out for one particular trait is because, when the game launched, a certain group latched onto her as the tentpole for arguing that SoD was a 0/10 SJW game. She stands out because they made her stand out, and used her three lines of dialogue as a platform for much larger arguments that had nothing to do with her character, Baldur's Gate or video games.
If she hadn't been the focal point of Yet Another Controversy, no one would be talking about her. As the video points out, she'd just be another flat merchant/healer character. She's trans, Bentley Mirrorshade is a gnome, etc.
Comments
And by the way @KcoQuidam I love your reply here and agree with it very much, although it is certainly true that some trans people do feel abnormal and broken which is why I didn't want to come at @Ashiel for her lived experience of transness, since it's just as valid to feel that way. But I do definitely gel more with your position here than hers, and feel that the vast majority of what I experience as "broken" and "abnormal" feeling is because of society/culture (and other people Othering me and dehumanizing me as a result of things that are normalized for them because of society/culture), rather than something internal to me. I really appreciate what you've written here, and feel it in my bones (and I appreciate your shoutout to nb trans folks like me!)!
FWIW, I'm nonbinary as well.
The thing I wanna say it's just for nonbinary people (in my definition: people who don't identity as men or women) there no "actual sex" that correspond to their gender identity in the view of the society (cause society is a binary thing, and split sex between "male" and "female"). You can't have a "nonbinary sex" cause ... that doesn't exist (still in society seeing, clearly not my thoughts) so you can't change your sex to "correspond" to your gender identity. That's why I call that "corresponding thing" a nonsense. That not "you don't need transition" but more "binary society will nether give you the 'matching seal of approvale', no matter what you'll do".
Not sure this response is more clear... Sorry if that bring more troubles than precisions. I'm not quite sure I use the goods terms for english speakers.
I remember the link when it first popped up on their blog, and read it voraciously (and was already a gender nihilist by that point because of her and Alyson/genderkills and other bloggers' discussions in that vein lol)
That a total valid way to feel clearly. I don't blame anybody for feeling that way.
I'll look the link you give ^^. Thank for the share.
@BelleSorciere happy it clear the thing ^^'. Sorry for the first bad phrasing.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is lazy.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is grumpy.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is stinky.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is stupid.
You walk into a pub, the bartender speaks french.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is friendly.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is happy.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is racist.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is preachy.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is comical.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is transsexual.
Wait a second...
Now for a lot of people, "is transsexual", is a perfectly fine trait to decorate a flat character with. For a lot of people, this feels "forced" because to them, a character's flat traits are usually things like personality traits, social traits (like their clothing), and their professions. In the same way that people would see the grumpy bartender, the happy bartender, and the gay bartender with the latter being different from the former two, I think this gives a lot of people pause.
Anytime something like sexuality or race are used to define a flat character, it comes off as feeling forced to a lot of people. I'd dare say because, to many people, those aren't personality traits or traits that matter, and it feels very artificial (or even offensive) when a flat character's tiny bit of personality is summed up as "the gay" or something.
Mind you, this isn't an argument or anything. Just a sort of realization that hit me while watching the video. Because during the video, I couldn't help but to ask why those are the traits that matter on a flat character, as opposed to any other defining features of their personality. Mayhaps this is where the disconnect is coming from.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is single.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is married.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is loud.
You walk into a pub, the bartender speaks klingon.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is gay.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is divorced.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is transsexual.
You walk into a pub, the bartender has only one leg.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is creepy.
You walk into a pub, the bartender is young.
When looking at that list, I don't think it sticks out quite as much. And that's the point that is being made here. Somehow it's acceptable for someone to tell you that they're mad at their wife or that their child ran off, or that their husband was beating them and now he's dead in an alley and they need 100 gold to dispose of the body (another SoD reference)... but it's somehow not okay for them to tell you they used to be a boy.
So I think you're onto something, but I wanted to point out that it extends far beyond "the bartender is happy" and into much deeper areas.
I think my favourite part is where he says: "If it came down to a mutually exclusive choice between round trans characters and flat trans characters in our media, I'm obviously going to go with round[...]but why can't we have both?"
Like, as a trans person, yes, give me trans wallflowers in worlds that have been packed full of cis wallflowers for all of gaming's history up to this point! I want the one-line NPC who says basically nothing but "I hate those darn Iron Throne weirdos, they're scary and mean!" along with a personal detail ("and they're mean because they pushed my little one-legged Timmy and broke his crutch!" "and they're mean because they gave my pet dog Scampy a dirty look and gave him self-esteem issues!" "and they're mean because they stole my potion of fire breath I was going to use at my twin grandchildren's birthday party!") every time you click on them to talk to them to sometimes be trans ("and they're mean because they called my sister a boy just because our moms can't afford magic to give her the body she deserves!")! Why not? I want trans representation among the very round and the very flat (and of course, I want to see representation in between the extremes as well)!
Looking at the first list I provided, each of those things tells you something important about your character's personality (except the speaking french, I was sleepy and I have no idea where that came from; I think my train of thought derailed for a bit). For example, Winthorp in Candlekeep is a joker. That jackass who owns the Copper Coronet is a bad guy. Noober is irritating. So on, so forth, yadda-yadda.
(I'm going to note that having being transsexual placed into the same trait grouping as having a peg leg is pretty hilarious and eerily accurate in some senses.)
Now, the rarer something is, the more it's going to stand out and not get glossed over by your brain, but at the same time the fewer other traits it has alongside it, the more alone it's going to see. Essentially, being flat makes it stand out a lot more.
Which is why the "round" characters don't seem to illicit these sorts of responses, because round characters feel more fleshed out and it doesn't feel like a gimmick. It's a play on the boiling frog effect.
So when someone mentions they have a wife or husband (of the opposite sex), being that heterosexuality is in fact more prevalent, it doesn't stand out very much when you see it so your brain doesn't even register it in the first place as much of anything, in the same way you don't take close examination of the grass in the park, because it's a park and you assume grass is going to be present. In fact, if you go to the park, and there is no grass, it's going to seem all the more remarkable.
So what I'm saying is, I think that a lot of the character's perceived tokenism, stems from these tricks of the mind. I realized this while watching the video and comparing to what others were saying. Tons and tons of people had a powerful reaction to Mizhena (good or ill), but as others noted in this thread, if compared to other NPCs who do info dumps (such as Mirriane in Beregost) she seems to stick out to our brains more.
And when our brains aren't noticing much else to the character (because it's being mostly overshadowed by this trait that our brain focuses on really hard) then it might appear that the character is token, because the character seems to stand out but only because of this one thing.
If she hadn't been the focal point of Yet Another Controversy, no one would be talking about her. As the video points out, she'd just be another flat merchant/healer character. She's trans, Bentley Mirrorshade is a gnome, etc.