Tell that to R.A. Salvatore and Ed Greenwood. I'm sure it'll be news to them.
I'd like an example. I don't absolutely have to be right on this. Was there ever a transgender NPC in the past, in lore books or DnD books? Someone pointed out a character in pathfinder, but that doesn't count to me. Magically induced sex changes like cursed belts or other spells doesn't count either. I'm talking about the modern day, real life transsexual boy that shops for girl clothes starting age 5. Can anyone give me just one example of that in any lore book?
Just for the record, I think that Pathfinder character was Anevia, a half-orc paladin. She was mentioned in a great blog I'll supply in a link, but quote directly.
"If Anevia’s transgender status comes up in game, she will be joining an NPC cast of characters that has included a dark elf who spent 30 years as a ghost, a sword that used to be a lady, a possibly intelligent horse, and a toad that was secretly a lecherous old wizard. In that kind of setting, I’m not sure somebody casually saying, “Did you know I used to have a penis?” would even warrant a batted eyelid."
I think your problem here is that your reasons for excluding actual examples are... arbitrary? "There's magic involved" is true of pretty much anything in the Forgotten Realms. And saying "it's a god" as if that somehow disqualifies Corellon conveniently overlooks that every other god in the pantheon has a set gender. Lolth is female. Gruumsh is male. Bhaal and Cyric are male. Mystra was female. Hell, even the Archdukes of Baator and the tanar'ri lords are mostly one or the other. "It's a god" is a meaningless rebuttal when Corellon is still the only one who actively represents a transgender or nonbinary state.
What's the big deal? Why is including her a bad thing? Why can't transgender people become a thing in the setting?
It's not a big deal. It just validates the complains ( that are overblown, I admit ) They, indeed, took Ed Greenwood's work and inserted a social justice warrior agenda. An insertion of a real life theme in a fantasy world when people usually enters a fantasy world to escape said reality.
I've already answered that picture. It's a god. There's magic involved. The whole transsexual social justice warrior thing is based on the real life version of a transsexual.
As for the argument: "He's a god, he's using magic, it doesn't count", if it's fine to have such a god in the Realms plus magic items or spells that change your gender, then people with NO access to such spells or items (for various reasons) would try to change their gender mundanely.
It's exactly the same thing.
It's arguing that there is no flint and steel because there is magic around to light things on fire. Or that there are no medics around with healing kits because Clerics. It's absurd.
I think modality needs to be considered, too. If we're talking about, say, a Dark Ages time period, or even say, a classical period, sans magic, the only way you could express your desire to change genders was to literally lop your genitalia off and wear clothing of the preferred sex. Sexual reassignment surgery can be traced back to ancient cultures, but it's primitive and brutal. Here in the Realms, magic gives you a better, cleaner, and more efficient transition. So as shawne pointed out so well .. yeah, the OPers examples are not only arbitrary, but illogical. Would you rather transition from man to woman (let's just say) via a sharp knife, magic, or the powers inherent to your divinity?
Refer to my previous comments on the matter. Yes, magic does everything better. People are still using mundane means.
Either that's fire, lighting, healing, cleaning, adventuring, travelling, climbing, fighting, crafting or flying. There are steam-punkish flying ships in Lantan that are non-magical.
What's the big deal? Why is including her a bad thing? Why can't transgender people become a thing in the setting?
It's not a big deal. It just validates the complains ( that are overblown, I admit ) They, indeed, took Ed Greenwood's work and inserted a social justice warrior agenda. An insertion of a real life theme in a fantasy world when people usually enters a fantasy world to escape said reality.
I just think it's a bit odd that you and other people are complaining about inserting real-life themes on Baldur's Gate of all games. A game that since its first incarnation in 1998 is riddled with pop culture references and the occasional fourth-wall breaking. Did the other stuff bother you as well? And if yes, why are you only complaining now?
Bottom line is, nobody can give me an example of a transsexual NPC within the usual playable races within Ed Greenwood's world because none existed. None existed because nobody would like to be a transsexual in a fantasy world, even the transsexuals themselves. The introduction of transsexuals was done to please the social justice warriors more than the transsexuals themselves, which is weird, but it is what it is.
No, bottom line is, people have given you examples of transexual NPCs and evidence going back to 1977, you just don't accept them because your "conclusion" would implode if you did. Not sure what you thought you were going to accomplish with this?
Those examples weren't transsexuals. Corellon "appears" as man or woman sometimes, which is more akin to a shapechange spell. And I bet he's not the only god to do that. The closest example was that daemon thing the other guy gave as example, and people well versed in lore knows that demons, devils and daemons have minds unlike our own, to the point where I consider it not a good enough example.
In a fantasy world, people create better or more interesting versions. Creating a transsexual and defending it would be like creating a Muslim terrorist and defending my concept to the core, calling anyone considering my concept a bad one to be intolerant bastards with dark hearts.
Corellon is a god. A god that was created by a person. A person that thought it would be interesting to create a being that could identify itself as the gender of its choice.
Thank you for going there, Beamdog. Please keep pushing the boundaries.
Corellon is a god. A god that was created by a person. A person that thought it would be interesting to create a being that could identify itself as the gender of its choice.
Those examples weren't transsexuals. Corellon "appears" as man or woman sometimes, which is more akin to a shapechange spell. And I bet he's not the only god to do that.
In a fantasy world, people create better or more interesting versions. Creating a transsexual and defending it would be like creating a Muslim terrorist and defending my concept to the core, calling anyone considering my concept a bad one to be intolerant bastards with dark hearts.
Well, since you mentioned "fantasy worlds" in general and not ADnD 2E specifically, does official Wizards of the Coast, DnD information from the Player's Handbook count?
DnD 5E Player's Handbook, p. 121
"You can play a male or female character without gaining any special benefits or hindrances. Think about how your character does or does not conform to the broader culture's expectations of sex, gender, and sexual behavior. For example, a male drow cleric defies the traditional gender divisions of drow society, which could be a reason for your character to leave that society and come to the surface.
You don't need to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender. The elf god Corellon Larethian is often seen as androgynous or hermaphroditic, for example, and some elves in the multiverse are made in Corellon's image. You could also play a female character who presents herself as a man, a man who feels trapped in a female body, or a bearded female dwarf who hates being mistaken for a male. Likewise, your character's sexual orientation is for you to decide."
The fifth edition was already quoted. After Ed Greenwood sold his world and Wizard of the Coast introduced changes based on market studies. More liberal folk among younger people, our targeted audience, so let's introduce transsexuals in the game to please our social justice warriors. Aka the complaint is well founded.
What exactly does Beamdog/WotC have to gain by "pleasing the social justice warriors" anyway? I can't see how this is a foregone conclusion for you people.
True or not, it's irrelevant. WotC wanted to make trans options available officially. Siege of Dragonspear is an official WotC product and included said trans options.
Anything else comes down to: "I don't agree/like it." Opinion. And has no base on official rule/lore facts.
Otherwise, using that logic, anything else after 1E is wrong because Gary Gygax left.
If WotC says that something is in the setting or is official, there's no debate. WotC green-lighted trans characters, therefore end of story.
In your houseruled version of the Realms, make sure to not allow trans characters. You're free to do so.
TL;DR: You're free to like to dislike certain features. That doesn't change the fact what is officially fitting or not for the setting.
Corellon is a god. A god that was created by a person. A person that thought it would be interesting to create a being that could identify itself as the gender of its choice.
Anything else comes down to: "I don't agree/like it." Opinion. And has no base on official rule/lore facts.
I agree with your post. But then again, it doesn't disprove my point : Those whining about the game are telling the truth as well. It is an introduction based on real life Social Justice Warrior, not creating a dungeon and dragon world.
Which cliche to defend will be introduced next? Religious Arabs that aren't terrorists? Rich Mexicans not working as menial labor? What about the Bedin ( black ) people living in Auroch's desert, shall we make them pretty to avoid any stereotypes against blacks? Shall we remove all ninja and samurai classes from the Kara-Tur campaign, because Asian? I'm offended by the great wall east of the unapproachable east! As the other guy said, if "we keep pushing the boundaries", will there even be a dungeon and dragon world left?
Comments
"If Anevia’s transgender status comes up in game, she will be joining an NPC cast of characters that has included a dark elf who spent 30 years as a ghost, a sword that used to be a lady, a possibly intelligent horse, and a toad that was secretly a lecherous old wizard. In that kind of setting, I’m not sure somebody casually saying, “Did you know I used to have a penis?” would even warrant a batted eyelid."
https://screamsheet.wordpress.com/2013/09/12/of-half-orc-paladins-and-their-transgender-wives/
Let's concede your point, @Maximvs. Suppose you're right and a transexual character is an unprecedented thing in the Forgotten Realms.
What's the big deal? Why is including her a bad thing? Why can't transgender people become a thing in the setting?
Yeah, me too.
Archaos got to my own point before me. Conceding.
Refer to my previous comments on the matter.
Yes, magic does everything better. People are still using mundane means.
Either that's fire, lighting, healing, cleaning, adventuring, travelling, climbing, fighting, crafting or flying.
There are steam-punkish flying ships in Lantan that are non-magical.
In a fantasy world, people create better or more interesting versions. Creating a transsexual and defending it would be like creating a Muslim terrorist and defending my concept to the core, calling anyone considering my concept a bad one to be intolerant bastards with dark hearts.
Thank you for going there, Beamdog. Please keep pushing the boundaries.
Please grow up, children .
DnD 5E Player's Handbook, p. 121
"You can play a male or female character without gaining any special benefits or hindrances. Think about how your character does or does not conform to the broader culture's expectations of sex, gender, and sexual behavior. For example, a male drow cleric defies the traditional gender divisions of drow society, which could be a reason for your character to leave that society and come to the surface.
You don't need to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender. The elf god Corellon Larethian is often seen as androgynous or hermaphroditic, for example, and some elves in the multiverse are made in Corellon's image. You could also play a female character who presents herself as a man, a man who feels trapped in a female body, or a bearded female dwarf who hates being mistaken for a male. Likewise, your character's sexual orientation is for you to decide."
Emphasis mine.
EDIT: sorry, I meant to say "can't see".
True or not, it's irrelevant.
WotC wanted to make trans options available officially.
Siege of Dragonspear is an official WotC product and included said trans options.
Anything else comes down to: "I don't agree/like it." Opinion.
And has no base on official rule/lore facts.
Otherwise, using that logic, anything else after 1E is wrong because Gary Gygax left.
If WotC says that something is in the setting or is official, there's no debate.
WotC green-lighted trans characters, therefore end of story.
In your houseruled version of the Realms, make sure to not allow trans characters. You're free to do so.
TL;DR: You're free to like to dislike certain features. That doesn't change the fact what is officially fitting or not for the setting.
Which cliche to defend will be introduced next? Religious Arabs that aren't terrorists? Rich Mexicans not working as menial labor? What about the Bedin ( black ) people living in Auroch's desert, shall we make them pretty to avoid any stereotypes against blacks? Shall we remove all ninja and samurai classes from the Kara-Tur campaign, because Asian? I'm offended by the great wall east of the unapproachable east! As the other guy said, if "we keep pushing the boundaries", will there even be a dungeon and dragon world left?