Good point. Heck, I might do it myself, if I can get my hands on the voiceset and Beamdog don't take advantage of the grand possibility they set up for themselves. I mean, good Gond!
Forgive the double post, but looking at it from a modding perspective and given that I'm not artistic (I aspire to stick figures), there's an alternative that could also be cool.
Imagine this: The Planar Sphere quest. You made the jump to hell, and now you need a demon's heart to fuel your trip back. That first one falls pretty easily, muting and deafening you as he loves to do, but ultimately not posing a threat and effectively just hands you his heart. But killing demons is sport, right? You push further in.
In the center of the map, with the third demon, is Caelar. But she's not fighting the demon, and the demons are not fighting her. She sees you, and sighs with resignation. She's been wondering when this would come. She's your greatest enemy, after all. Your greatest rival. Of course you would track through Hell to confront her again. The only thing she's never been sure of was what you'll say when you finally meet again.
It comes as quite a shock to her that you weren't looking for her. In fact, you'd be given the option to actually have to stop to search your memory before you recognize her as "that uppity aasimar that tried to storm Hell", with the added salt in the wound that she's frankly small potatoes compared to a beholder 'god', an elder red dragon, an army of super-powered druids, a prince of shadow, and, oh, an old ex-elven mage who likes to torture girls and listen to himself talk (but then, who doesn't like to listen to him talk?).
You can talk her into joining the group, leave her to her fate, or kill her to deliver a sliver of the justice she deserves. If you recruit her, you discover something that's really bothering her: the demons haven't been attacking her. Instead they've been accepting her, even going so far as referring to her as "sister", which has really thrown her sense of identity into a tailspin. It's your conversations with her that push her one way or the other, or perhaps even break her sense of self beyond recovery.
Caelar in BG2EE? Oh, good Wondermaker, that would be great. Imagine it: Caelar didn't get the get-out-of-jail free card she thought she had, and gets pulled out of her exile and imprisoned by some powerful mage or cleric with a penchant for justice.
Pretty sure getting imprisoned in hell is not getting out of jail free. Its just a different kind of jail.
Pretty sure getting imprisoned in hell is not getting out of jail free. Its just a different kind of jail.
The problem, though, is that she's not imprisoned in hell. She's free. Left behind in a hostile environment, yes, but free. And there are a lot of ways back to the prime, right? Demons seem to make a holiday of it. Maybe not the big bad guys, because the prime would be screwed if they could make the jump easily, but Caelar? For all we know, ten minutes later she's sitting on a beach, sipping colorful drinks named by people with a bad sense of humor.
And exile in hell just isn't really satisfying in a justice sense, you know? All the families her crusade demolished? What can you tell them? She isn't standing trial, facing the people she hurt. She wasn't killed. She just walked away of her own volition. You even get the chance to call her on it.
I'll quote the Doctor (from Doctor Who: A Town Called Mercy): "Justice doesn’t work like that. You don’t get to decide when and how your debt is paid!"
I'm sorry, but that whole thing really irks me. If we'd gotten a scene like the end of BG2, where Irenicus faces off against a horde of Slayers, that would have closed the book. Or even Planescape Torment, where the Nameless One looks over the blood war and smiles grimly as he picks up an ax and marches down to his punishment. There's closure, there. Here, she gets to walk off, free, on her own terms and there's nothing you can do about it.
Forgive the double post, but looking at it from a modding perspective and given that I'm not artistic (I aspire to stick figures), there's an alternative that could also be cool.
Imagine this: The Planar Sphere quest. You made the jump to hell, and now you need a demon's heart to fuel your trip back. That first one falls pretty easily, muting and deafening you as he loves to do, but ultimately not posing a threat and effectively just hands you his heart. But killing demons is sport, right? You push further in.
In the center of the map, with the third demon, is Caelar. But she's not fighting the demon, and the demons are not fighting her. She sees you, and sighs with resignation. She's been wondering when this would come. She's your greatest enemy, after all. Your greatest rival. Of course you would track through Hell to confront her again. The only thing she's never been sure of was what you'll say when you finally meet again.
It comes as quite a shock to her that you weren't looking for her. In fact, you'd be given the option to actually have to stop to search your memory before you recognize her as "that uppity aasimar that tried to storm Hell", with the added salt in the wound that she's frankly small potatoes compared to a beholder 'god', an elder red dragon, an army of super-powered druids, a prince of shadow, and, oh, an old ex-elven mage who likes to torture girls and listen to himself talk (but then, who doesn't like to listen to him talk?).
You can talk her into joining the group, leave her to her fate, or kill her to deliver a sliver of the justice she deserves. If you recruit her, you discover something that's really bothering her: the demons haven't been attacking her. Instead they've been accepting her, even going so far as referring to her as "sister", which has really thrown her sense of identity into a tailspin. It's your conversations with her that push her one way or the other, or perhaps even break her sense of self beyond recovery.
Would that sound like a good introduction?
Issue there is that you're in the Abyss, not the Nine Hells. Demons and Devils are enemies from different planes of existence in 2e AD&D. it'd have to be a new location you transfer to.
Pretty sure getting imprisoned in hell is not getting out of jail free. Its just a different kind of jail.
The problem, though, is that she's not imprisoned in hell. She's free. Left behind in a hostile environment, yes, but free. And there are a lot of ways back to the prime, right? Demons seem to make a holiday of it. Maybe not the big bad guys, because the prime would be screwed if they could make the jump easily, but Caelar? For all we know, ten minutes later she's sitting on a beach, sipping colorful drinks named by people with a bad sense of humor.
And exile in hell just isn't really satisfying in a justice sense, you know? All the families her crusade demolished? What can you tell them? She isn't standing trial, facing the people she hurt. She wasn't killed. She just walked away of her own volition. You even get the chance to call her on it.
I'll quote the Doctor (from Doctor Who: A Town Called Mercy): "Justice doesn’t work like that. You don’t get to decide when and how your debt is paid!"
I'm sorry, but that whole thing really irks me. If we'd gotten a scene like the end of BG2, where Irenicus faces off against a horde of Slayers, that would have closed the book. Or even Planescape Torment, where the Nameless One looks over the blood war and smiles grimly as he picks up an ax and marches down to his punishment. There's closure, there. Here, she gets to walk off, free, on her own terms and there's nothing you can do about it.
She's still a mortal trapped in Hell, she's not a mage so she has no way of leaving herself. As I see it she'd be kept a captive prize like her uncle was. It's not justice but I think it could be applied to any sentence as "time served" so to speak.
I was pretty upset at Corwin letting us down in SoD. So let's say in BG2EE she does find us back AND the Soultaker Dagger as well, full of remorse and begging for forgiveness. I say there should be an option going like this: we kill her using the Soultaker dagger, and as her body dies, we tell her we're gonna find Rhoma back at BG, and make her a slave. Then we're even. F*** you Corwin. That's pretty harsh, I won't deny, but it's not something an evil character wouldn't dare doing. Game on.
I don't think remorse works well for to get Corwin into BG2. Nobody comes to Amn looking for the Scion. They just happen to run across them while pursuing their own interests. Corwin would have no reason to look for them there, because nobody knew they were taken by Irenicus, much less where Irenicus's labs were.
Neb works much better for the introduction. A gleefully evil child killer who was imprisoned in the Flaming Fist stronghold in BG1, yet somehow gets free to be found in the Bridge District in BG2 (he knew an escape route all along, he even shows you it if you solve his riddle). Child Killer on the loose + Cop who is a Mother = plenty of reason to sadistic short arse across 200 miles. If you wanted to, you could have Neb kill Rohma, as it would add a lot of tragedy to Corwin's story (and free her from her responsibilities), but I don't think it's necessary. The fact that she's 200 miles from home (and more by ToB) and no longer on the case that sent her there would add more than enough angst to a woman who already feels like she's been neglecting her daughter. The Siege of Dragonspear she could brush off as doing her job. The Siege of Saradush? Not so much. It's not her home being threatened, and there's no paycheck at stake. Having her face the fact that she has no excuse for it, and the consequences of that truth, could keep a half-decent writer going for a good long while on its lonesome.
The guilt works much better for keeping her there, if you choose to keep her. Finding the Scion, learning their side of the story of their disappearance, combined with months to consider her choices at the end of SoD, would give her plenty of cause to say "I let you down once, and I may well have destroyed my best chance at finding love again, but I will not make the same mistake again. If you would have me, I will follow you to hell and back. I owe you that much."
As for Corwin's departure, I can only speak for the version I saw (Rep 20, never attacked the Slayer), but I can see her point of view. During the Scion's adventure with her they've killed a LOT of things, quite probably including people who didn't have it coming - there are a lot of "good" people in Caelar's army. Boarskyre Bridge, even if she buys that the Scion didn't do it on purpose, proves that the Scion isn't as in control as they themselves believe. The city she loves is being ripped to shreds a third time in a very short time (Sarevok, Caelar, and now you). She's simply choosing her city's wellbeing over yours. It's a decision she could quite realistically come to regret, but it's an understandable one all the same.
I won't lie and say your stance is invalid. But it is a limited perspective, from the eye of a player used to being the center of the story (which in BG is usually true). But remember that Corwin never signed on because she likes you or because she believes in you. She signed on because her city and her family are in danger, and the Flaming Fist is paying her to fix that. At best, you're a problematic VIP whose very presence is keeping her from going home to tuck her kid in on the day before she's off on a very dangerous campaign. Her bosses love you, but doesn't know you from Adam and readily admits she isn't sure you set out to save anything but your own hide when you fought Sarevok. Or whether you're going after Caelar because she's a threat to Baldur's Gate or because she tried to kill you and you don't like people who try to kill you. Not in general, anyways.
Over the course of the game, she starts to get to know you and possibly even falls in love, but she never presents herself as anything other than a mercenary, putting her life on the line to put food on her kid's plate. You're an asset. A valuable one, maybe, possibly even an admirable one, but one that makes things so much harder in other ways. The PR for having a Bhaalspawn in the army alone is going to make recruitment difficult.
Then you're caught holding a bloody cursed dagger over the punctured remains of the beloved daughter of one of the most powerful men in the city, with no justification for your predicament. The accusation doesn't fit your behavior (possibly), but the facts are hard to escape. Skie is dead, you were found bloody and holding the dagger, and now one of the most powerful men in the city is crying for your head and your reputation is the only thing keeping him from just lopping your head off on the spot.
She is not going to abandon the Flaming Fist. Not only would one captain with ties to the suspect not be a persuasive symbol, the Flaming Fist isn't doing anything wrong. You get a trial, it's just that the evidence is stacked against you. Add to that the fact that she has to put food on the table and face the people of Baldur's Gate (as well as Silvershield) every day, and it just wasn't worth it.
Her request that you just own it was selfish and she acknowledges it. She can't change the fact that you're scheduled to be executed. If you die screaming your innocence, you're just going to cut the city in half once again. If you cop to it (guilty or no), you can at least save the city one last time. Clearly, Belt never told her that he had plans to let you escape, or she'd never have asked.
Also, I'm told that if you do enough in SoD to swing it, you can provide enough evidence to be sentenced to exile rather than execution. I failed that, so I don't know what she says in that case. But the simple fact is that you're a Bhaalspawn, a Bhaalspawn almost destroyed Baldur's Gate, you lost control on Boarskyre Bridge, and then was found in very incriminating circumstances. You have a lot of evidence against you, as well as a lot of negative press and a major power player screaming for your death. You have to prove yourself hard to cut the sentence down to exile.
Now was the whole thing weak? Yes. The railroading was so evident I heard steam whistles. But that wasn't the character's fault. Corwin had very good reason to do and say what she did, and very good reason to regret it afterwards.
Judging from your post, I think I may have misjudged the exile/execution thing. I thought "failing" involved having you officially condemned, but then Belt pulls some under the table shenanigans to get you out with your head attached. I thought "success" meant officially being exiled.
As for Corwin's request, yes. It is out of line. I think she knows it is. It would take someone of absurd virtue to not just accept an unjust ruling but rise above it and take the blame just to help the city that is killing you heal. There is no way you could expect someone to do something like that. Even asking feels like a slap in the face. If she gets added to BG2, I strongly suspect that will be one thing she truly regrets.
I would love to see caelar miikhin and glint. Vog bored me to tears and I didn't like Corwin's character. I think she was well written and three dimensional; but that goody goody crap only works if you're Mazzy.
I would love to see Caelar the most though, miikhin very close behind.
I think BG2 should get more brand new characters. It will feel odd if "everyone" you ever traveled with in BG1 and SoD starts showing up in Amn. So far Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc, Dynaheir, Imoen, Xzar, Ajantis, Montaron, Garrick, Faldorn, Viconia and the three from BG1 EE all show up in BG2. That is a lot of " we just happened to be there" going on. Faerun is a big place, after all.
Nice discussing between the two of you, damn apologize to have missing that. Even if we are Loyal Good Paladin we are sentence down to exile, I use every line (5-6) in my defence and I was sentence to death.
There are one thing that I want to know, during the hell chapter, what happens if we fail the riddle and that we sell our soul ?
The end of Baldur's Gate Siege of Dragonspear is a good ending if we want our character becoming a Dark Knight, especially if our soul is own by a demon
Forgive the double post, but looking at it from a modding perspective and given that I'm not artistic (I aspire to stick figures), there's an alternative that could also be cool.
Imagine this: The Planar Sphere quest. You made the jump to hell, and now you need a demon's heart to fuel your trip back. That first one falls pretty easily, muting and deafening you as he loves to do, but ultimately not posing a threat and effectively just hands you his heart. But killing demons is sport, right? You push further in.
In the center of the map, with the third demon, is Caelar. But she's not fighting the demon, and the demons are not fighting her. She sees you, and sighs with resignation. She's been wondering when this would come. She's your greatest enemy, after all. Your greatest rival. Of course you would track through Hell to confront her again. The only thing she's never been sure of was what you'll say when you finally meet again.
It comes as quite a shock to her that you weren't looking for her. In fact, you'd be given the option to actually have to stop to search your memory before you recognize her as "that uppity aasimar that tried to storm Hell", with the added salt in the wound that she's frankly small potatoes compared to a beholder 'god', an elder red dragon, an army of super-powered druids, a prince of shadow, and, oh, an old ex-elven mage who likes to torture girls and listen to himself talk (but then, who doesn't like to listen to him talk?).
You can talk her into joining the group, leave her to her fate, or kill her to deliver a sliver of the justice she deserves. If you recruit her, you discover something that's really bothering her: the demons haven't been attacking her. Instead they've been accepting her, even going so far as referring to her as "sister", which has really thrown her sense of identity into a tailspin. It's your conversations with her that push her one way or the other, or perhaps even break her sense of self beyond recovery.
@Calemyr@JonSnowIsAlive Late to the conversation, and it's already been closed mostly, but...
A quick look at the files seems to be that if you're going to be exiled, the conversation remains the same if you're just comrades - she'll ask you to fall on your sword anyway.
If you're in a romance, she won't ask you to 'fall on your sword' and seems deeply conflicted about whether or not to help you flee - I think in the execution case she's a bit less conflicted but still struggling with her decision. She believes you didn't do the deed in the exile case and doesn't know what to believe if you're going to be executed. She doesn't do anything there as far as I can tell; you make it out safely on your own if you're exiled. Either way, no request for you to confess.
But - this doesn't excuse her asking you to sacrifice yourself - if you select the right dialogues (one of which requires a 16+ CHA; this isn't the only path to the result) during your escape from being executed, she'll actually sacrifice herself for you to get you out. Or at least is willing to, if you don't manage to slaughter the others before she dies. I don't think there's a script accounting for her survival. This is with me playing with a character about to be executed, so it's not just guessing at the scripts (I'm still not sure what causes either the execution or the exile, though).
So... there's that? It doesn't even require a romance, if I see it right. It does require you basically refusing to attempt to kill her and surrendering. I'm a bit torn on how to feel about it. On one hand, she dies for you. On the other, she asked of you something rather unreasonable in that case scenario. And you had to surrender, which is basically saying you're willing to die in order not to kill/fight her. Seeing the romance version first also may have colored my perspective a bit, and I might have more sympathy for her than is really objective.
In any case, just commenting on it, if y'all wanted to know. I spend more time digging in the files to see what the characters will say in response than actually playing the game.
On a completely different note, while I would like some resolution to Corwin, the likelihood of her being in the area is low. I do want some resolution to the Soultaker dagger, though - that's something I would prioritize tying up over having Corwin appear in BG2 and pretty much everything else. Having the chance to recruit Caelar would be an interesting story to tell, and I'd probably rank it higher (personal feelings aside, Caelar's a better fit) than trying to fit Corwin in.
@JonSnowIsAlive No, I don't expect you do want to replay it. And frankly the work was done because I didn't feel like replaying it.
Caelar is such a fascinating character; she has complexity a lot of video game characters fail to have, which is why I rank her pretty high on the list of characters that I'd like to see in BG2. In a lot of ways, the reason why I bemoan how straight-jacketed the plot was because of Caelar. Different paths. And she's packing a chunk of power, but that's pretty secondary to the fact that she's a really good character to interact with. Bringing her into BG2 doesn't take much effort, on top of that and there's so many places you can go with it. :gushing:
Conversations with Corwin (just covering where, when, and what):
There are two conversations after you're jailed. One's at the jail itself, and the other's at your escape - but the second only occurs if you're escaping execution and not going into exile. Well, it might occur if you go through that hidden door. No idea if that's possible. It's at the top of the waterfall, where you get caught by the soldiers.
It's really insert-expletive-here easy to mess up the second one and get her to attack you; surrender is usually the last option one thinks of, and she'll be intent on delivering you to your death up until the last moment where she actually has to either step aside and let the soldiers kill you or help them kill you. She doesn't, jumps into the fray and tells you to run, likely in full expectation she's going to end up dead (and most certainly does without your help and the script has no contingencies if she does survive) . Or, if your CHA is high enough, there's a really, really, really tricky one-path at 18 CHA where she doesn't wait until the last moment and tells you to run without waiting until your life is under threat by the other soldiers. The last is only available to the romance.
The conversation at the jail is probably the conversation where you were told to 'get lost'. I actually got her to ask for forgiveness out of that. The voice acting was rather poor in inserting emotion when I came back and heard it, because it certainly doesn't match the text; it sounds... cold - I actually didn't pay much attention to that because I tend to be a text-reader and read so fast I shut off the sounds.
Corwin & My Perspectives (Really long and not really important, just sharing perspective):
Before we get into anything else: I would agree that her request in the comrades section was utterly unreasonable of her and for that, I do agree with your bit of outrage. That was just a bit ridiculous of her to even ask; it's a slap in the face and a insult. I don't really understand why that was included and I think I would agree with the hate if that had been the first thing I saw. I'd have preferred it if she simply avoided the confrontation altogether. I will note, however, some cultures might not see it as completely out of line, even from an ally/friend. It is still... rude. And hurtful. But not completely out of line. I disagree with that, but there you have it.
On top of that, the character's in the right here; they're innocent and having people they trusted stand with them is to be expected. Hating someone for not doing so, is also something that I think is a normal reaction. That, and distrust and all that follows from it. A normal reaction, does not follow it is the only one and I'm not really normal anyway.
Onwards, though. Perspectives: Mine is probably heavily skewed and a bit different from mainstream. They're a sight bit archaic and probably out-of-date, but this is what I was raised in, so fair warning about mindsets that might not make sense or agree. Not to mention this is entirely focused on the romance and not the completely idiotic request for you to throw yourself on your sword. I mean - bleeping well really? She has no right to expect that of you; even if she prioritizes her child, that's just out of line, even by my standards.
Ignoring the lawful good label she's had, Corwin's values are ones I can sympathize with. Family and duty come before love; your children and your parents first, before yourself. And in the end, in this view - a lover is inherently selfish. If you are asked to give them up by your family... you do so. Perhaps not without protest or attempts to convince, but if the judgement is that in the end... you do so. For the good of the family, above all else. Maybe I'm projecting a little here. Probably am.
What is she risking, if she does free the character, or even go with them? Her family, for one. Rohma, whom she would be unable to put food on the table for because she would likely no longer have a job as a Flaming Fist and perhaps shortly after, no home. Her father's pride in her; he too, was a Flaming Fist soldier. Both of which are core aspects of her character. She tells us about following in her father's footsteps and his pride in her when she grew up to be a good soldier. The night before the murder, in one of the dialogue options she tells us that if she has to choose between you or Rohma, she's always going to choose Rohma.
I practically expected her choice, once the murder was revealed. Love does not conquer all, and maybe that's me being cynical speaking. And that softened the blow a lot.
And frankly, I grew up under similar values. It's not hard to imagine myself in that same type of situation and ask, what would I do. And I'm not sure my answer would be any different; but then again, I'd not consider myself any type of Good. What would be the point where my love for someone meant more than my responsibility towards the child I already had?
Yes, there are ways other than being in a specific city under a specific job to feed and raise a child; but moving like that is a risk and an instability that I would, if I was a good parent, refuse to take. There's also that Corwin probably literally couldn't see that as a valid option; she's been the Flaming Fist all her life and doesn't know any other way. There's a part of her that can't see that there are other options to accomplish what she needs to.
Maybe, if I was resourceful enough, I'd find someone and discreetly hire them to free them. Or maybe I'd make an attempt to pull for a lighter sentence, but it's a careful balance between advocate and pissing off the superiors enough that I lose my job. Maybe; it's a risk that Corwin might have not been willing to take. Or maybe she did, and you just never hear about the fact that she makes a statement in your favor afterwards.
Either way... it's an end to the relationship. And because I don't know if I wouldn't have behaved the same way, I can't actually blame her for that. I'd hurt - and I'd know it wasn't the Righteous decision to make - but in the end? I'm not Good. I'm at best Neutral.
And because my character might have recognized that her association with my character at that juncture wasn't the smart idea for her kid and herself - might have well just told her to go away before she said anything. "I want you to stand by me, but I know better than to let you."
To conclude with this, I'd never want to fall in love with someone I already knew would put someone else first. I'd have to align my priorities the same way in order for that to work out, and that's not something that comes by forcing it. Not really.
In any case, the fact Corwin generates emotion like this is kinda neat, especially since it's not as if it's OoC. I mean, it's not good for the character, but it's nice writing, since it makes some sense and makes people respond.
@KerOfErebus I'm not sure I totally agree with you on Caelar. It think she has a very cool vibe, and is an epic character as far as confidence, boldness, and martial skills are concerned and that is why I'd very much like her to join my BG2 party.
Maybe, I said maybe I'd even like to engage her romantically, though I have and always have had reservations concerning Baldur's Gate's romance capabilities. Let's just say it is one of few instances in life where the, somewhat rude, motto bitches be crazy comes naturally to my mind.
That said, where Caelar disappointed me was...
...in the revelation that even though all SoD-long she appeared to be the better man (between her and our own character), all she actually managed to accomplish was ravage a country, lie to each and every soul she ever encountered and betray the trust of even her most devoted followers. And what for?
The answer is VERY LITTLE, for the life of her uncle has absolutely no significance in the great scheme of things. There is no greater good in that, there barely is good at all in that motivation. I expected Caelar to be many things, but not a hypocrite. Her actually fighting for truth was what was supposed to make her implacable and utterly determined.
While playing SoD, every step forward I took I told myself: Oohhh, this is gonna be good, I'm gonna march on, kill her and realize I crushed a force of Good and actually made the world a worse place for it. I'm gonna feel so bad, and that's what SoD is all about, realizing divine does not equal noble and that our heritage does not mean much without the wit to carry it through. That was gonna be the lesson of Siege of Dragonspear. I wanted us, arrogant bhaalspawn that we are, to be taught a lesson.
Even Sarevok, who was raving mad and utterly evil, had greater designs (becoming a GOD) that actually managed to, in a way, justifiy his course, however dark it was. I can't and never will feel that way about Caelar. She's a little girl who couldn't get over the fact that she screwed up big time and what so incredibly lucky she actually managed to survive it. Again, as an immature little girl, she decided to scorn her uncle's sacrifice and return to Hell. This is so crazy, it is beyond words.
So when I said in other threads that her BG2 quest (should she become available and should we rescue her) would have to be all about her redemption. All about her understanding what she did was wrong: wrong by her victims, wrong her followers and, yes, even wrong by her uncle.
I do not remember was her wisdom score is, but as far as I'm concerned, it should be utterly low. She sure is intelligent enough to conceive efficient strategies but has no clue whatsoever as to what is right or wrong.
God, that took much more words than I initially thought it would. So be it, Corwin will all to wait until tomorrow, even though that was the first and foremost point of you post. Sorry about that.
Great discussion by the way!
EDIT: spelling...
I think what you call disappointing is in fact a very good example of a tragic hero. SOD is the platitude "hell is full of good wishes" (which derives from Virgil's "the road to hell is easy" or "facilis descensus Averno" if you like Latin lol) made into a story.
@JonSnowIsAlive As a preface, I think BG1 & BG2 tends to do a good job with their characters, BG2 more than BG1. Sometimes they're a bit lacking, but they're in general decent.
I'm not sure I'm coming from the same direction as you are. I look at a lot of things less from the perspective of 'do I actually like this character as a person' a lot of the time. I look at it from 'what story can I tell with this character' and 'are their motivations, both core and secondary, interesting'.
I don't, actually, like Caelar as a person. I want to slam her head into the wall. Several times. I can't really like her as a person even at the outset, but maybe one day I'd figure out a point of view where I could. That's before we got to know about her uncle and all that.
As for a romance... not interested. Not interested at all. Rarely have been, and the only reason why I am usually is because it gives me more insight with the character than the typical banters do, and if there's a redemption tale, that's completely unnecessary.
I don't mean to say she's in the right, or that her way of doing things was in any way justified. But she is compelling with her confidence. I did want to slam my own head against the wall every time I heard her public reasons. I wanted to... I'm not sure what I wanted to do, but I'm pretty sure it was rather violent and explicit - when I saw she was still going to open the portal to hell after her army had been defeated, but that's another matter.
As for the matter of her uncle... it's hard to say. Was what she did through out the entirety of the game worth her uncle? A categorical no. But it's hard to condemn her for wanting to save her uncle from paying the price of her folly. And very human, too, to have your good intentions start there. "My family suffered such a loss; others have too and I want to make it all right." A lot of people will want what is theirs to be recovered first, even if they also want to make it right for other people.
But that's a completely different matter to wanting to have different choices; different paths. It is the possible interactions with that character that I wanted, rather than the right or wrongness. Who really is Caelar Argent? Is she really just that selfish little girl - is that all that she is, was that the only thing she wanted out of the crusade? Did she really believe the words she said, because wanting to rescue her uncle is not exclusive?
I do realize that she does go after her uncle, and that is condemning evidence in favor of that her entire crusade was only for her uncle. But there are other options. She may not have considered the consequences, or been unable to accept that all she's done - all the sacrifices people have made and the sacrifices that she's "made" - came to naught and was desperate to have one last thing accomplished, even though that 'one last thing' was worth nothing. Unwilling, in the end, to believe herself the devil. That is damning evidence to her strength of character, but how far does the rabbit hole go?
But I don't sympathize with her. I don't like her. I don't really care for her lacking ability in wisdom, in strength of character, in indulging in pride and arrogance. I don't like the fact that she is utterly unwilling to admit that she should have done otherwise. That there was a better way.
And unrelated: Could I have done something to change the horrors of the Crusade?
But that can just as well be done in BG2; it's not exclusive. A redemption tale will uncover just as much. There's a lot of places to go with it, too. You can break her as much as rebuild her, in such a tale. I'm gushing because of the possibilities, not because I actually would like her as a person. I don't.
But it has been good discussion so far; I like hearing about different views.
Comments
In the center of the map, with the third demon, is Caelar. But she's not fighting the demon, and the demons are not fighting her. She sees you, and sighs with resignation. She's been wondering when this would come. She's your greatest enemy, after all. Your greatest rival. Of course you would track through Hell to confront her again. The only thing she's never been sure of was what you'll say when you finally meet again.
It comes as quite a shock to her that you weren't looking for her. In fact, you'd be given the option to actually have to stop to search your memory before you recognize her as "that uppity aasimar that tried to storm Hell", with the added salt in the wound that she's frankly small potatoes compared to a beholder 'god', an elder red dragon, an army of super-powered druids, a prince of shadow, and, oh, an old ex-elven mage who likes to torture girls and listen to himself talk (but then, who doesn't like to listen to him talk?).
You can talk her into joining the group, leave her to her fate, or kill her to deliver a sliver of the justice she deserves. If you recruit her, you discover something that's really bothering her: the demons haven't been attacking her. Instead they've been accepting her, even going so far as referring to her as "sister", which has really thrown her sense of identity into a tailspin. It's your conversations with her that push her one way or the other, or perhaps even break her sense of self beyond recovery.
Would that sound like a good introduction?
And exile in hell just isn't really satisfying in a justice sense, you know? All the families her crusade demolished? What can you tell them? She isn't standing trial, facing the people she hurt. She wasn't killed. She just walked away of her own volition. You even get the chance to call her on it.
I'll quote the Doctor (from Doctor Who: A Town Called Mercy): "Justice doesn’t work like that. You don’t get to decide when and how your debt is paid!"
I'm sorry, but that whole thing really irks me. If we'd gotten a scene like the end of BG2, where Irenicus faces off against a horde of Slayers, that would have closed the book. Or even Planescape Torment, where the Nameless One looks over the blood war and smiles grimly as he picks up an ax and marches down to his punishment. There's closure, there. Here, she gets to walk off, free, on her own terms and there's nothing you can do about it.
Still, I think the basic concept could work with a little editing.
It'd just take a bit more work than putting her in the existing outside map for the planar sphere quest.
Neb works much better for the introduction. A gleefully evil child killer who was imprisoned in the Flaming Fist stronghold in BG1, yet somehow gets free to be found in the Bridge District in BG2 (he knew an escape route all along, he even shows you it if you solve his riddle). Child Killer on the loose + Cop who is a Mother = plenty of reason to sadistic short arse across 200 miles. If you wanted to, you could have Neb kill Rohma, as it would add a lot of tragedy to Corwin's story (and free her from her responsibilities), but I don't think it's necessary. The fact that she's 200 miles from home (and more by ToB) and no longer on the case that sent her there would add more than enough angst to a woman who already feels like she's been neglecting her daughter. The Siege of Dragonspear she could brush off as doing her job. The Siege of Saradush? Not so much. It's not her home being threatened, and there's no paycheck at stake. Having her face the fact that she has no excuse for it, and the consequences of that truth, could keep a half-decent writer going for a good long while on its lonesome.
The guilt works much better for keeping her there, if you choose to keep her. Finding the Scion, learning their side of the story of their disappearance, combined with months to consider her choices at the end of SoD, would give her plenty of cause to say "I let you down once, and I may well have destroyed my best chance at finding love again, but I will not make the same mistake again. If you would have me, I will follow you to hell and back. I owe you that much."
As for Corwin's departure, I can only speak for the version I saw (Rep 20, never attacked the Slayer), but I can see her point of view. During the Scion's adventure with her they've killed a LOT of things, quite probably including people who didn't have it coming - there are a lot of "good" people in Caelar's army. Boarskyre Bridge, even if she buys that the Scion didn't do it on purpose, proves that the Scion isn't as in control as they themselves believe. The city she loves is being ripped to shreds a third time in a very short time (Sarevok, Caelar, and now you). She's simply choosing her city's wellbeing over yours. It's a decision she could quite realistically come to regret, but it's an understandable one all the same.
Over the course of the game, she starts to get to know you and possibly even falls in love, but she never presents herself as anything other than a mercenary, putting her life on the line to put food on her kid's plate. You're an asset. A valuable one, maybe, possibly even an admirable one, but one that makes things so much harder in other ways. The PR for having a Bhaalspawn in the army alone is going to make recruitment difficult.
Then you're caught holding a bloody cursed dagger over the punctured remains of the beloved daughter of one of the most powerful men in the city, with no justification for your predicament. The accusation doesn't fit your behavior (possibly), but the facts are hard to escape. Skie is dead, you were found bloody and holding the dagger, and now one of the most powerful men in the city is crying for your head and your reputation is the only thing keeping him from just lopping your head off on the spot.
She is not going to abandon the Flaming Fist. Not only would one captain with ties to the suspect not be a persuasive symbol, the Flaming Fist isn't doing anything wrong. You get a trial, it's just that the evidence is stacked against you. Add to that the fact that she has to put food on the table and face the people of Baldur's Gate (as well as Silvershield) every day, and it just wasn't worth it.
Her request that you just own it was selfish and she acknowledges it. She can't change the fact that you're scheduled to be executed. If you die screaming your innocence, you're just going to cut the city in half once again. If you cop to it (guilty or no), you can at least save the city one last time. Clearly, Belt never told her that he had plans to let you escape, or she'd never have asked.
Also, I'm told that if you do enough in SoD to swing it, you can provide enough evidence to be sentenced to exile rather than execution. I failed that, so I don't know what she says in that case. But the simple fact is that you're a Bhaalspawn, a Bhaalspawn almost destroyed Baldur's Gate, you lost control on Boarskyre Bridge, and then was found in very incriminating circumstances. You have a lot of evidence against you, as well as a lot of negative press and a major power player screaming for your death. You have to prove yourself hard to cut the sentence down to exile.
Now was the whole thing weak? Yes. The railroading was so evident I heard steam whistles. But that wasn't the character's fault. Corwin had very good reason to do and say what she did, and very good reason to regret it afterwards.
As for Corwin's request, yes. It is out of line. I think she knows it is. It would take someone of absurd virtue to not just accept an unjust ruling but rise above it and take the blame just to help the city that is killing you heal. There is no way you could expect someone to do something like that. Even asking feels like a slap in the face. If she gets added to BG2, I strongly suspect that will be one thing she truly regrets.
I would love to see Caelar the most though, miikhin very close behind.
If you're in a romance, she won't ask you to 'fall on your sword' and seems deeply conflicted about whether or not to help you flee - I think in the execution case she's a bit less conflicted but still struggling with her decision. She believes you didn't do the deed in the exile case and doesn't know what to believe if you're going to be executed. She doesn't do anything there as far as I can tell; you make it out safely on your own if you're exiled. Either way, no request for you to confess.
But - this doesn't excuse her asking you to sacrifice yourself - if you select the right dialogues (one of which requires a 16+ CHA; this isn't the only path to the result) during your escape from being executed, she'll actually sacrifice herself for you to get you out. Or at least is willing to, if you don't manage to slaughter the others before she dies. I don't think there's a script accounting for her survival. This is with me playing with a character about to be executed, so it's not just guessing at the scripts (I'm still not sure what causes either the execution or the exile, though).
So... there's that? It doesn't even require a romance, if I see it right. It does require you basically refusing to attempt to kill her and surrendering. I'm a bit torn on how to feel about it. On one hand, she dies for you. On the other, she asked of you something rather unreasonable in that case scenario. And you had to surrender, which is basically saying you're willing to die in order not to kill/fight her. Seeing the romance version first also may have colored my perspective a bit, and I might have more sympathy for her than is really objective.
In any case, just commenting on it, if y'all wanted to know. I spend more time digging in the files to see what the characters will say in response than actually playing the game.
On a completely different note, while I would like some resolution to Corwin, the likelihood of her being in the area is low. I do want some resolution to the Soultaker dagger, though - that's something I would prioritize tying up over having Corwin appear in BG2 and pretty much everything else. Having the chance to recruit Caelar would be an interesting story to tell, and I'd probably rank it higher (personal feelings aside, Caelar's a better fit) than trying to fit Corwin in.
Caelar is such a fascinating character; she has complexity a lot of video game characters fail to have, which is why I rank her pretty high on the list of characters that I'd like to see in BG2. In a lot of ways, the reason why I bemoan how straight-jacketed the plot was because of Caelar. Different paths. And she's packing a chunk of power, but that's pretty secondary to the fact that she's a really good character to interact with. Bringing her into BG2 doesn't take much effort, on top of that and there's so many places you can go with it. :gushing:
Conversations with Corwin (just covering where, when, and what):
It's really insert-expletive-here easy to mess up the second one and get her to attack you; surrender is usually the last option one thinks of, and she'll be intent on delivering you to your death up until the last moment where she actually has to either step aside and let the soldiers kill you or help them kill you. She doesn't, jumps into the fray and tells you to run, likely in full expectation she's going to end up dead (and most certainly does without your help and the script has no contingencies if she does survive) . Or, if your CHA is high enough, there's a really, really, really tricky one-path at 18 CHA where she doesn't wait until the last moment and tells you to run without waiting until your life is under threat by the other soldiers. The last is only available to the romance.
The conversation at the jail is probably the conversation where you were told to 'get lost'. I actually got her to ask for forgiveness out of that. The voice acting was rather poor in inserting emotion when I came back and heard it, because it certainly doesn't match the text; it sounds... cold - I actually didn't pay much attention to that because I tend to be a text-reader and read so fast I shut off the sounds.
Corwin & My Perspectives (Really long and not really important, just sharing perspective):
Before we get into anything else: I would agree that her request in the comrades section was utterly unreasonable of her and for that, I do agree with your bit of outrage. That was just a bit ridiculous of her to even ask; it's a slap in the face and a insult. I don't really understand why that was included and I think I would agree with the hate if that had been the first thing I saw. I'd have preferred it if she simply avoided the confrontation altogether. I will note, however, some cultures might not see it as completely out of line, even from an ally/friend. It is still... rude. And hurtful. But not completely out of line. I disagree with that, but there you have it.
On top of that, the character's in the right here; they're innocent and having people they trusted stand with them is to be expected. Hating someone for not doing so, is also something that I think is a normal reaction. That, and distrust and all that follows from it. A normal reaction, does not follow it is the only one and I'm not really normal anyway.
Onwards, though. Perspectives: Mine is probably heavily skewed and a bit different from mainstream. They're a sight bit archaic and probably out-of-date, but this is what I was raised in, so fair warning about mindsets that might not make sense or agree. Not to mention this is entirely focused on the romance and not the completely idiotic request for you to throw yourself on your sword. I mean - bleeping well really? She has no right to expect that of you; even if she prioritizes her child, that's just out of line, even by my standards.
Ignoring the lawful good label she's had, Corwin's values are ones I can sympathize with. Family and duty come before love; your children and your parents first, before yourself. And in the end, in this view - a lover is inherently selfish. If you are asked to give them up by your family... you do so. Perhaps not without protest or attempts to convince, but if the judgement is that in the end... you do so. For the good of the family, above all else. Maybe I'm projecting a little here. Probably am.
What is she risking, if she does free the character, or even go with them? Her family, for one. Rohma, whom she would be unable to put food on the table for because she would likely no longer have a job as a Flaming Fist and perhaps shortly after, no home. Her father's pride in her; he too, was a Flaming Fist soldier. Both of which are core aspects of her character. She tells us about following in her father's footsteps and his pride in her when she grew up to be a good soldier. The night before the murder, in one of the dialogue options she tells us that if she has to choose between you or Rohma, she's always going to choose Rohma.
I practically expected her choice, once the murder was revealed. Love does not conquer all, and maybe that's me being cynical speaking. And that softened the blow a lot.
And frankly, I grew up under similar values. It's not hard to imagine myself in that same type of situation and ask, what would I do. And I'm not sure my answer would be any different; but then again, I'd not consider myself any type of Good. What would be the point where my love for someone meant more than my responsibility towards the child I already had?
Yes, there are ways other than being in a specific city under a specific job to feed and raise a child; but moving like that is a risk and an instability that I would, if I was a good parent, refuse to take. There's also that Corwin probably literally couldn't see that as a valid option; she's been the Flaming Fist all her life and doesn't know any other way. There's a part of her that can't see that there are other options to accomplish what she needs to.
Maybe, if I was resourceful enough, I'd find someone and discreetly hire them to free them. Or maybe I'd make an attempt to pull for a lighter sentence, but it's a careful balance between advocate and pissing off the superiors enough that I lose my job. Maybe; it's a risk that Corwin might have not been willing to take. Or maybe she did, and you just never hear about the fact that she makes a statement in your favor afterwards.
Either way... it's an end to the relationship. And because I don't know if I wouldn't have behaved the same way, I can't actually blame her for that. I'd hurt - and I'd know it wasn't the Righteous decision to make - but in the end? I'm not Good. I'm at best Neutral.
And because my character might have recognized that her association with my character at that juncture wasn't the smart idea for her kid and herself - might have well just told her to go away before she said anything. "I want you to stand by me, but I know better than to let you."
To conclude with this, I'd never want to fall in love with someone I already knew would put someone else first. I'd have to align my priorities the same way in order for that to work out, and that's not something that comes by forcing it. Not really.
In any case, the fact Corwin generates emotion like this is kinda neat, especially since it's not as if it's OoC. I mean, it's not good for the character, but it's nice writing, since it makes some sense and makes people respond.
As a preface, I think BG1 & BG2 tends to do a good job with their characters, BG2 more than BG1. Sometimes they're a bit lacking, but they're in general decent.
I'm not sure I'm coming from the same direction as you are. I look at a lot of things less from the perspective of 'do I actually like this character as a person' a lot of the time. I look at it from 'what story can I tell with this character' and 'are their motivations, both core and secondary, interesting'.
I don't, actually, like Caelar as a person. I want to slam her head into the wall. Several times. I can't really like her as a person even at the outset, but maybe one day I'd figure out a point of view where I could. That's before we got to know about her uncle and all that.
As for a romance... not interested. Not interested at all. Rarely have been, and the only reason why I am usually is because it gives me more insight with the character than the typical banters do, and if there's a redemption tale, that's completely unnecessary.
As for the matter of her uncle... it's hard to say. Was what she did through out the entirety of the game worth her uncle? A categorical no. But it's hard to condemn her for wanting to save her uncle from paying the price of her folly. And very human, too, to have your good intentions start there. "My family suffered such a loss; others have too and I want to make it all right." A lot of people will want what is theirs to be recovered first, even if they also want to make it right for other people.
But that's a completely different matter to wanting to have different choices; different paths. It is the possible interactions with that character that I wanted, rather than the right or wrongness. Who really is Caelar Argent? Is she really just that selfish little girl - is that all that she is, was that the only thing she wanted out of the crusade? Did she really believe the words she said, because wanting to rescue her uncle is not exclusive?
I do realize that she does go after her uncle, and that is condemning evidence in favor of that her entire crusade was only for her uncle. But there are other options. She may not have considered the consequences, or been unable to accept that all she's done - all the sacrifices people have made and the sacrifices that she's "made" - came to naught and was desperate to have one last thing accomplished, even though that 'one last thing' was worth nothing. Unwilling, in the end, to believe herself the devil. That is damning evidence to her strength of character, but how far does the rabbit hole go?
But I don't sympathize with her. I don't like her. I don't really care for her lacking ability in wisdom, in strength of character, in indulging in pride and arrogance. I don't like the fact that she is utterly unwilling to admit that she should have done otherwise. That there was a better way.
And unrelated: Could I have done something to change the horrors of the Crusade?
But that can just as well be done in BG2; it's not exclusive. A redemption tale will uncover just as much. There's a lot of places to go with it, too. You can break her as much as rebuild her, in such a tale. I'm gushing because of the possibilities, not because I actually would like her as a person. I don't.
But it has been good discussion so far; I like hearing about different views.