And furthermore, GG doesn't matter! SoD and it's legitimate complaints matter. The bugs, and yes, the writing too.
No game in history will ever be given a legion of 0/10 ratings because of bugs. Temple of Elemental Evil had one of the most notoriously awful releases of all time and it was nowhere close to ratings like this.
There has definitely been an agenda at play here, and it's not on Beamdog's part. It was from the group that got their feathers ruffled and that's how they responded, en masse.
Ya'll make it sounds like SoD was somehow exposed to something totally horrible and unprecedented. Huge portion of video games, specially major releases, have their share of protest votes in Metacritic, given for this reason or that. They get distributed freely for incredibly minor, stupid reasons. Check more or less any Call of Duty game. Or the new Star Wars Battlefront. Or Diablo 3. Or Mass Effect 3. Huge wealth of 0-protest votes isn't quite a rule rather than exception. However, It IS extremely common though. This is why nobody takes user reviews too seriously. It doesn't mean the sky is falling, it doesn't mean there is some gigantic organized para military crusade on going by some evil demonized-to-hell GG cell. It means stuff they told you in Internet 101, anonymity 101 and people 101 still applies. Controversies happen, it is all right. It is fine.
I actually checked , there are 150 negative reviews of SoD in Metacritic. If you think this is a huge display of people responding en masse to getting feathers ruffled, you've yet to see a proper storm in a water glass.
""White" people have never been an oppressed group, as an ethnic distinction. Anywhere. Ever. "
Well, the Celts of Britain who were oppressed by the Romans or the Germans who were oppressed by the Romans or the Germans who oppressed the Romans or the Irish who were oppressed by the English (recall potato famine and Swift's "Modest Proposal") etc. will be ecstatic to hear it. EDIT: And I bet I know what the rejoinder will be, but I won;t argue it here, because this is really OT.
Those are all persecuted groups of white people, but the persecution didn't occur because they were white. So were their oppressors. It happened because they were Celts, Germans, and Irish.
Yep. A perfect example would be the Irish immigrants in the United States. They were essentially treated like hispanic immigrants today and it wasn't because they were white. In fact, they were persecuted by other white people. It was due to them being Irish... Well, a foreign group of people to be specific. Our country has always had issues with xenophobia, which is the ultimate irony when you consider the fact that the Statue of Liberty is such an important historical landmark.
Well yes, but it is still an example of white people beign discriminated against in a racist manner, and I understand there is probably something more to it, I just don't see it. But I respect your viewpoint, and thank you for your reasonable approach to it's discussion. On the subject of the Statue of Liberty, what I would give to see it before the patina (fancy word for "turned green")! Right, that's enough out of me on that and back to the proper topic. Keep going strong Beamdog, you guys rock!
What lies underneath all social justice warriors, politically correct and other various social movement is an anti white straight sentiment versus white and straight people. Simple as that. The sad part is when these movements recruit among white and straight people too. In today's society, we have straight and white defending people of color, people of different sex, and sometimes it's fine to do so, but when the attention shifts upon white, straight people, it's like they don't get it.
After decades of destruction of the white identity, we now have white people wearing japanese t shirts and even worse, tattoos that cannot be removed, white people listening to rap music, fixing their hair into dreads, etc.
Back to the subject though. Why is it that on TV, we mostly see gay couples, but very rarely lesbian couples? Would it be fair to see a 50 - 50 ratio of those? Why do we see gay couples at a 95% rate since the last 10 years? It's because straight white guys would like it too much. The point is to slam psychological attacks on us over and over. And now we have a poorly written transgender cleric just there to make yet another political point.
Well yes, but it is still an example of white people beign discriminated against in a racist manner, and I understand there is probably something more to it, I just don't see it. But I respect your viewpoint, and thank you for your reasonable approach to it's discussion. On the subject of the Statue of Liberty, what I would give to see it before the patina (fancy word for "turned green")! Right, that's enough out of me on that and back to the proper topic. Keep going strong Beamdog, you guys rock!
Bigoted manner, yes. However, xenophobia and racism aren't always the same thing, even though they are similar forms of bigotry. Irish is not a race. Its a nationality. White people weren't being bigoted toward themselves when they persecuted Irish immigrants, they were being bigoted toward a group they viewed as outsiders. That is an important distinction so that we can avoid conflating different issues.
But yeah, as much as I enjoy debating, I mostly came here to throw my support behind Beamdog. Its good to see so many game companies including more diverse characters in their games lately. The future is looking bright in the gaming industry. The actual gaming community is another story entirely but that is a discussion for another time.
What lies underneath all social justice warriors, politically correct and other various social movement is an anti white straight sentiment versus white and straight people. Simple as that. The sad part is when these movements recruit among white and straight people too. In today's society, we have straight and white defending people of color, people of different sex, and sometimes it's fine to do so, but when the attention shifts upon white, straight people, it's like they don't get it.
After decades of destruction of the white identity, we now have white people wearing japanese t shirts and even worse, tattoos that cannot be removed, white people listening to rap music, fixing their hair into dreads, etc.
Back to the subject though. Why is it that on TV, we mostly see gay couples, but very rarely lesbian couples? Would it be fair to see a 50 - 50 ratio of those? Why do we see gay couples at a 95% rate since the last 10 years? It's because straight white guys would like it too much. The point is to slam psychological attacks on us over and over. And now we have a poorly written transgender cleric just there to make yet another political point.
And here lies the sad truth of what is behind all of this. Glad to see one of the trolls slip up enough to drop the fig leaf excuses behind this campaign.
On a personal note, I have never given much thought or truly wrestled with the issues surrounding Trans/Cis. I have had a friend who revealed his trans-identity and I have known a few other people who were transgender and although I treated them politely and with respect, I was not my usual relaxed, accepting and warm self around them. I felt their was something wrong, different and other about them. I was not very supportive of my friend when he revealed his identity. I now regret that. I also regret remaining a bit standoffish with other transgender people I have had associations with.
The Furor brought up by the very vocal minority made uncomfortable by the presence of a transgender NPC in Siege of Dragonspear gave me pause to reflect upon my own views and prejudices. This process brought about a change in my attitude and thinking on the matter. I believe as a human being I have evolved to a better place because of it.
@TrentOster@Amber_Scott@Dee As one human being to another human being who had a hand in creating this, I wanted to sincerely give you my eternal thanks. Some may call this social justice warfare, but I call it Art. Your work has made me uncomfortable, given me pause and caused me to change. In my opinion that makes this great art.
I bought BG1 and 2EE. In fact your versions of these games are my first experiences with them. I was set to buy Icewind Dale when I got word of this issue. I pulled IWD off my Steam wishlist at that point. With the line being removed, IWD is back on the list and I'll probably buy it next. So it got you a sale, and possibly another once all this dies down and I feel I can get an honest opinion about Dragonspear.
Thank you for removing the divisive GG line. The trans cleric was never an issue for me at least.
Bought both games, and I made an account just to say that not listening to your customers and calling them trolls or gamer's gate people isn't a good start. I haven't played the expansion, but I've seen screenshots and videos of the issue. Shoehorning a character like that for diversity's sake is an insult to everyone.
This whole back and forth really kept me from buying the expansion. Good on Oster for actually listening, but this whole situation was handled terribly by the developers. Vilifying customers and not listening to legitimate complaints is always, always a bad start.
I also have to say someone with this mindset, "If people don’t like that, then too bad." Should be far, far away from anything even remotely related to customer service.
Bought both games, and I made an account just to say that not listening to your customers and calling them trolls or gamer's gate people isn't a good start. I haven't played the expansion, but I've seen screenshots and videos of the issue. Shoehorning a character like that for diversity's sake is an insult to everyone.
This whole back and forth really kept me from buying the expansion. Good on Oster for actually listening, but this whole situation was handled terribly by the developers. Vilifying customers and not listening to legitimate complaints is always, always a bad start.
I also have to say someone with this mindset, "If people don’t like that, then too bad." Should be far, far away from anything even remotely related to customer service.
To be fair, the first people to handle this terribly were the ones that decided to review bomb the game and get offended over a stupid voice line and poorly written footnote character without even playing the game. Yeah, some people at Beamdog reached out to the community and some anti-GG sources to help combat the issue, but they quickly rescinded from that. Now they've fully addressed the problems in the game and are committed to developing a more interesting Mizhena.
I hope you decide to give it a try, because it's totally worth it and 99.9% of the content is controversy-free.
I also have to say someone with this mindset, "If people don’t like that, then too bad." Should be far, far away from anything even remotely related to customer service.
"Shoehorning a character like that for diversity's sake" is a fig leaf intended to cover up "I don't want transgender characters in this or any other video game." It's pretty blatantly obvious as such.
And heck, I'm a writer, and I always felt that "If people don't like what I write, too bad." People usually liked what I wrote, too. Also, "writing" is not itself a customer service occupation. Although I do think that there are times it is perfectly reasonable for customer service people to say "if you don't like it, tough."
Shoehorning a character like that for diversity's sake is an insult to everyone.
I am sure that when Gene Roddenberry 'shoehorned' Uhura onto the bridge of the enterprise for diversity's sake, that there were people who felt the same way, that it was an insult to their sensibilities.
It is however more of a matter of people who apparently want to be insulted by the simple presence of a character, because lets face it if you have no problem at all with the idea of a trans-character the there is no need to feel insulted by one simply being there.
We don't want gay or transgender people. What we want are lesbians. But strangely enough, they only flash us gay guys and transgender. I wonder why. Maybe the agenda of psychologically attacking us white straight folk is showing?
So, what about the ogre in BG1 wearing the girdle of masculinity/femininity. Who is to say he/she is not transgender. But must have been killed millions of times with no one raising an eyebrow.
So, what about the ogre in BG1 wearing the girdle of masculinity/femininity. Who is to say he/she is not transgender. But must have been killed millions of times with no one raising an eyebrow.
It's harassment intended for the straight male community. No other way to put it.
Why do you think we only see gay guys and transgender people on tv anymore, and barely any lesbians at all? the gay-lesbian ratio is far from an even and fair 50 - 50. Straight guys feels an aversion when exposed to gay guys and transgender people. You Social Justice Warriors, Politically Correct people falsely assume this to be hatred taught by other hateful people when in fact, the aversion is biological in nature. It's in our genes.
Things caused by genes is usually forgiven by the Social Justice Warriors, everything biological is forgiven except ( gasp! ) when it comes from straight males. What a surprise.
And so they keep their psychological attacks upon us, newly persecuted straight males ( especially the white ones ) and falsely pretend it's to help the very very very small minority of transgender people. The question is why should we suffer just because they suffer? Only hateful people would think that way, and yes, those people are hateful Social Justice Warriors.
You Social Justice Warriors, Politically Correct people falsely assume this to be hatred taught by other hateful people when in fact, the aversion is biological in nature. It's in our genes.
Things caused by genes is usually forgiven by the Social Justice Warriors, everything biological is forgiven except ( gasp! ) when it comes from straight males. What a surprise.
And so they keep their psychological attacks upon us, newly persecuted straight males ( especially the white ones ) and falsely pretend it's to help the very very very small minority of transgender people. The question is why should we suffer just because they suffer? Only hateful people would think that way, and yes, those people are hateful Social Justice Warriors.
You don't suffer because a transcharacter is simply being there
Why do you think we only see gay guys and transgender people on tv anymore, and barely any lesbians at all? the gay-lesbian ratio is far from an even and fair 50 - 50. Straight guys feels an aversion when exposed to gay guys and transgender people. You Social Justice Warriors, Politically Correct people falsely assume this to be hatred taught by other hateful people when in fact, the aversion is biological in nature. It's in our genes.
Things caused by genes is usually forgiven by the Social Justice Warriors, everything biological is forgiven except ( gasp! ) when it comes from straight males. What a surprise.
And so they keep their psychological attacks upon us, newly persecuted straight males ( especially the white ones ) and falsely pretend it's to help the very very very small minority of transgender people. The question is why should we suffer just because they suffer? Only hateful people would think that way, and yes, those people are hateful Social Justice Warriors.
I see lesbians on tv fairly frequently (on the rare occasions that I watch tv these days). If you feel that isn't the case, it may be because one of the requirements for being a lesbian is to be a woman. And those get on tv far less frequently already. A combination of 2 underrepresented minorities? Of course that will be pretty rare.
Also why is a lack of lesbians an attack on straight white men? If those are the sorts of 'lesbians' you're looking for, there's an entire genre of film based around them.
I Why do you think we only see gay guys and transgender people on tv anymore, and barely any lesbians at all? the gay-lesbian ratio is far from an even and fair 50 - 50. Straight guys feels an aversion when exposed to gay guys and transgender people.
Personally, and this may just be due to the shows I watch, I see lesbian characters all the time. It may border on over representation actually, compared to gay male characters, which I almost never see. It may indeed come down to the idea that maximvs (who will be of no loss to this forum) alluded to about male viewers enjoying lesbian characters but not gay male characters. At least in shows I've watched, they are also more likely to depict lesbians in the act of making love rather than gay men. I don't have anything other than my own anecdotal evidence, and it may just be the shows I tend to watch, but my experience tells the opposite story than dear departed maximvs's.
Oh my god....we've gone from complaints about a trans npc, to complaints about an Amber Scott interview, to complaints that the trans character wasn't authentic enough, to complaints that the writing is universally terrible....and now people seem to want Safana to be completely rewritten because of some jerk-off fantasy they had during 1998. We've gone well past moving the goalposts at this point. Now we're just moving the game to completely different stadiums every 18-24 hrs.....
Once again, everything you've said fits under one of two "goalposts": 1. Bad writing. 2. Departure from the original games.
3. Also, can you fix this piece of bad writing too while you are at it? You need to watch the whole video to get it. Ignore the Minsc line in the end. My problem is with the line: "Take them alivie!" and then the enemy slaughters you even if you don't fight back. Can you change that line into: "Kill them all!"
Jesus, I hope I don't get banned again under false accusation of being sexist harasser.
That video must be fake, because as we all know, there's no "bad writing" in SoD. Accusations of bad writing are just covers for sexism and homophobia, and everything else is just "moving goalposts."
Comments
Ya'll make it sounds like SoD was somehow exposed to something totally horrible and unprecedented. Huge portion of video games, specially major releases, have their share of protest votes in Metacritic, given for this reason or that. They get distributed freely for incredibly minor, stupid reasons. Check more or less any Call of Duty game. Or the new Star Wars Battlefront. Or Diablo 3. Or Mass Effect 3. Huge wealth of 0-protest votes isn't quite a rule rather than exception. However, It IS extremely common though. This is why nobody takes user reviews too seriously. It doesn't mean the sky is falling, it doesn't mean there is some gigantic organized para military crusade on going by some evil demonized-to-hell GG cell. It means stuff they told you in Internet 101, anonymity 101 and people 101 still applies. Controversies happen, it is all right. It is fine.
I actually checked , there are 150 negative reviews of SoD in Metacritic. If you think this is a huge display of people responding en masse to getting feathers ruffled, you've yet to see a proper storm in a water glass.
After decades of destruction of the white identity, we now have white people wearing japanese t shirts and even worse, tattoos that cannot be removed, white people listening to rap music, fixing their hair into dreads, etc.
Back to the subject though. Why is it that on TV, we mostly see gay couples, but very rarely lesbian couples? Would it be fair to see a 50 - 50 ratio of those? Why do we see gay couples at a 95% rate since the last 10 years? It's because straight white guys would like it too much. The point is to slam psychological attacks on us over and over. And now we have a poorly written transgender cleric just there to make yet another political point.
But yeah, as much as I enjoy debating, I mostly came here to throw my support behind Beamdog. Its good to see so many game companies including more diverse characters in their games lately. The future is looking bright in the gaming industry. The actual gaming community is another story entirely but that is a discussion for another time.
The Furor brought up by the very vocal minority made uncomfortable by the presence of a transgender NPC in Siege of Dragonspear gave me pause to reflect upon my own views and prejudices. This process brought about a change in my attitude and thinking on the matter. I believe as a human being I have evolved to a better place because of it.
@TrentOster @Amber_Scott @Dee As one human being to another human being who had a hand in creating this, I wanted to sincerely give you my eternal thanks. Some may call this social justice warfare, but I call it Art. Your work has made me uncomfortable, given me pause and caused me to change. In my opinion that makes this great art.
Bravo!
Thank you for removing the divisive GG line. The trans cleric was never an issue for me at least.
This whole back and forth really kept me from buying the expansion. Good on Oster for actually listening, but this whole situation was handled terribly by the developers. Vilifying customers and not listening to legitimate complaints is always, always a bad start.
I also have to say someone with this mindset, "If people don’t like that, then too bad." Should be far, far away from anything even remotely related to customer service.
I hope you decide to give it a try, because it's totally worth it and 99.9% of the content is controversy-free.
And heck, I'm a writer, and I always felt that "If people don't like what I write, too bad." People usually liked what I wrote, too. Also, "writing" is not itself a customer service occupation. Although I do think that there are times it is perfectly reasonable for customer service people to say "if you don't like it, tough."
It is however more of a matter of people who apparently want to be insulted by the simple presence of a character, because lets face it if you have no problem at all with the idea of a trans-character the there is no need to feel insulted by one simply being there.
We want straight easy blondes with huge bazookas. Sheesh.
Who is to say he/she is not transgender.
But must have been killed millions of times with no one raising an eyebrow.
Why do you think we only see gay guys and transgender people on tv anymore, and barely any lesbians at all? the gay-lesbian ratio is far from an even and fair 50 - 50. Straight guys feels an aversion when exposed to gay guys and transgender people. You Social Justice Warriors, Politically Correct people falsely assume this to be hatred taught by other hateful people when in fact, the aversion is biological in nature. It's in our genes.
Things caused by genes is usually forgiven by the Social Justice Warriors, everything biological is forgiven except ( gasp! ) when it comes from straight males. What a surprise.
And so they keep their psychological attacks upon us, newly persecuted straight males ( especially the white ones ) and falsely pretend it's to help the very very very small minority of transgender people. The question is why should we suffer just because they suffer? Only hateful people would think that way, and yes, those people are hateful Social Justice Warriors.
Also why is a lack of lesbians an attack on straight white men? If those are the sorts of 'lesbians' you're looking for, there's an entire genre of film based around them.
1. Bad writing.
2. Departure from the original games.