Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Beamdog's Official Statement (4-6-2016)

1333435363739»

Comments

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,114

    Skatan said:

    Sorry, but the differences look even clearer than ever now that you've posted them side-by-side.

    That's because BG1 has so little banter and personality sharing that you seem to have filled in the blanks yourself in your head and dressed the few lines of conversation in BG1 with context, traits and characterization that jsut isn't there. I do the same sometimes when a character isn't fleshed out enought to fill in all the blanks.

    So saying that your PERSONAL interpretation of Safana differs from Beamdogs and that theirs is wrong and yours is right is kinda childish and, to be frank, just plain incorrect.

    I haven't played SoD but I truly wonder if it would have been the same reactions to male companions, like if say Kagain got a personality upgrade. It often feels like most reactions stems down to it being a FEMALE that changes and a MALE who reacts to it. Whenever females stop being just sexual beings, alot of boys get threatened because the picking order has been changed.

    1. Whatever Safana got it wasn;t an 'upgrade'.
    2. As for the comment "Whenever females stop being just sexual beings"; this is just wrong.
    As has been well covered, the original Safana exercised her own sexual agency. The new Safana on the other hand is a whiny annoyance wanting all the boys to give her compliments and presents.
    Indeed, if you want to put things in terms of SJW tropes (as you seem to), then I'd say the new Safana is a more sexist caricature than the old one.
    1: Still, that's a personal opinion and not a fact. So you want her to be a sexy, sultry, seducting adultress to not spoil the imagination and the action going on under your blanket at night? Fine by me, but stop stating that the upgrade is a "change" since you can't "change" something that isn't there to begin with. Then you make/create something, and in this case it's an expansion to a fairly one-dimensional NPC.
    2: Stating something is "wrong" doesn't make it wrong. I'm open for discussion, but you gotta add some more explanations to back this up since otherwise you just sound rather childish.
    "3": I don't even know what "SJW tropes" are, but if you want to say I put things in those terms, then so be it. But instead of debating the way I express myself, perhaps you could adress what I say?

    GenderNihilismGirdleMirandellolien
  • Baeloth_JnrBaeloth_Jnr Member Posts: 86
    edited April 2016
    @Skatan
    As for "3" I was debating what you say, and the observation of how you say it (or your ideological preferences) was only in passing.
    As for "2" it is wrong as a matter of fact. No one is saying Safana "stops being a sexual being".
    The argument is that her established sexual agency has been neutered and replaced with neediness (and consequently she is annoying; and what a well worn trope the 'needy' woman is).
    As for "wrong", you will note that I made a statement then followed it up with a fact ("As has been well covered" - it has, read the thread, I will not repeat arguments ad infinitum).
    As for "childish". I will let petty ad hominems like that speak for themselves.
    As for "1", I suggest your look to your own foppish crudites ("'not spoil the imagination and the action going on under your blanket at night?") before accusing me of "childishness".
    Moreover, as I have previously stated Safana is painted with broad stokes in BG1, but the nature of her character is quite plain and that character has not been consistently developed in SoD.
    That is demonstrable by evidence adduced numerous times on these boards and hardly bears repeating again.

    Mortianna
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,114

    @Skatan
    As for "3" I was debating what you say, and the observation of how you say it (or your ideological preferences) was only in passing.
    As for "2" it is wrong as a matter of fact, and has been mentioned by me and others numerous times, here on this thread. You will note that I made a statement then followed it up with a fact ("As has been well covered").
    As for "childish". I will let petty ad hominems like that speak for themselves.
    As for "1", I suggest your look to your own foppish crudites ("'not spoil the imagination and the action going on under your blanket at night?") before accusing me of "childishness".
    Moreover, as I have previously stated Safana is painted with broad stokes in BG1, but the nature of her character is quite plain and that character has not been consistently developed in SoD.
    That is demonstrable by evidence adduced numerous times on these boards and hardly bears repeating again.

    As bengoshi showed above, her character development in BG1 is very limited and leaves alot room for personal interpretation. What some may think as sultry, others might see as something else. Again, just because you think and feel something doesn't make it so.

    No, it is not "wrong as a matter of fact". That's my point, you can't take yours (and others) personal opinions and call them facts, no matter how many times you repeat yourself. I can call Earth flat thousands of times in hundres of threads, but that doesn't make Earth flat.

    So you're saying a person can only have one personality trait? So just because one of Safana's traits was more common in BG1, that is the only which can be fleshed out in a sequel?

    My point about the blanket action was a bit childish indeed, but it boils down to the fact that it's always boys who get the most aggregated when stuff like this happen, and it's usually because a female no longer meets their expectations on what a woman should be according to their regressive ideas.

    JuliusBorisovGenderNihilismGirdlekillerrabbitnamenlos
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,438
    I think you mean "aggravated".

    Just a reminder to keep things civil, folks. Discussing the topic in a spirited manner is fine, but leave the ad hominems (direct or otherwise) out of it.

    JuliusBorisovGenderNihilismGirdle
  • namenlosnamenlos Member Posts: 51
    edited April 2016
    Skatan,
    Some of that seems a little... biased, perhaps, and experience will vary during life. I've heard the reverse to be true from others, and I disagree with that, but a blanket statement always seems silly to me... not to go off topic, but there's no disagree button :P

    I also agree about Safana/Jaheira as I've mentioned before, my imagination made something more of what they gave me. Does that make it wrong? no. If I don't like what the writers of SoD did then I can play around it, an example I've used: Not liking their personality changes? kill them and write into your journal how they were dopplegangers, simple but keeps it clear(for me).

    Anyway, thank you for sharing.

    Edit: You know, I'm not really disagreeing with you Skatan actually, I'm more worried that so many RPG players(the detractors to "change") have trouble thinking outside the box and making it their own. /happythoughts

    Post edited by namenlos on
    Skatan
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,470
    Skatan said:

    Sorry, but the differences look even clearer than ever now that you've posted them side-by-side.

    That's because BG1 has so little banter and personality sharing that you seem to have filled in the blanks yourself in your head and dressed the few lines of conversation in BG1 with context, traits and characterization that jsut isn't there. I do the same sometimes when a character isn't fleshed out enought to fill in all the blanks.

    So saying that your PERSONAL interpretation of Safana differs from Beamdogs and that theirs is wrong and yours is right is kinda childish and, to be frank, just plain incorrect.
    I didn't "interpret" the fact that she tries to endear herself to other characters in order to manipulate them into serving her goals.
    1. It's explicitly stated in her bio that she does this.
    2. She does the very same to you when you first meet her, in order to convince you to dispose of the cave's guardians on her behalf.
    3. She continues to compliment NPCs even when they're insulting or dismissive toward her.
    Skatan said:

    I haven't played SoD but I truly wonder if it would have been the same reactions to male companions, like if say Kagain got a personality upgrade. It often feels like most reactions stems down to it being a FEMALE that changes and a MALE who reacts to it. Whenever females stop being just sexual beings, alot of boys get threatened because the picking order has been changed.

    Yes, it would've been the same - people complain about Quayle's perceived change in personality between BG1 and BG2, despite the fact that you barely even see him in the latter, and he isn't playable (plus most players didn't like him to begin with).

    typo_tillyFoggy
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,114


    I didn't "interpret" the fact that she tries to endear herself to other characters in order to manipulate them into serving her goals.
    1. It's explicitly stated in her bio that she does this.
    2. She does the very same to you when you first meet her, in order to convince you to dispose of the cave's guardians on her behalf.
    3. She continues to compliment NPCs even when they're insulting or dismissive toward her.

    You're obviously missing my piont. I'm not debating whether or not she is sultry or manipulative in BG1, I'm saying she most likely have more than just those character traits. Do you see the difference?

    I'm saying that an expanded character means showing more than just one trait (you know, like all the humans in the entire history of the world?) whilst it seems so many Safana fans seem to think that any expanded character should be only about that one thing they consider to be the 'true' Safana personality.


    Yes, it would've been the same - people complain about Quayle's perceived change in personality between BG1 and BG2, despite the fact that you barely even see him in the latter, and he isn't playable (plus most players didn't like him to begin with).

    This is true to some extent, but where are the hundreds of posts about this massive personality change? Where are the legion of boys writing angrily about what a travesty that is and how 'they' completely destroyed Quayles persona from BG1? I've seen people talk about this indeed, but not aggressively, which is curious since Quayle really did go through a massive personality change.

    Grumtypo_tillylolien
  • GenderNihilismGirdleGenderNihilismGirdle Member Posts: 1,320
    Skatan said:

    where are the hundreds of posts about this massive personality change? Where are the legion of boys writing angrily about what a travesty that is and how 'they' completely destroyed Quayles persona from BG1? I've seen people talk about this indeed, but not aggressively, which is curious since Quayle really did go through a massive personality change.

    we know where those boy-legions are, since they're more transparent to us than they are to themselves and they shove themselves under our noses constantly making all the transparent posts not dedicated to Quayle for transparent reasons, occasionally buttressed by people outside their legion who either don't find them transparent and take them at face value through this fault of interpersonal perceptiveness, have some bizarre reason to want to foist legitimacy onto their gross viewpoint, or both.

    shawneAyiekie
  • RathenauRathenau Member Posts: 80
    edited April 2016
    Are you saying it's time to get our torches and pitchforks out to confront those daemonic entities?

    Because it seems you're desperately trying to do so. Making claims about 'the others' and their motives doesn't seem like a constructive thing to do. It might be time to take off your tinfoil hat there my friend.

    Getting back to the issue here, it would make sense to go to the source. Wasn't it stated by one of the writers that the two characters in question were in fact changed? Saying that a character's personality has been upgraded means it has been altered, not just added to. It seems that any argument claiming that is not the case is rather dubious when the writer has stated it was.

    Edited for typo's.

  • GenderNihilismGirdleGenderNihilismGirdle Member Posts: 1,320
    edited April 2016
    False equivalency between changed and upgraded, between rewrite and upgraded, is an argument I've seen trotted out a few times.

    When I upgrade the software on my phone, my phone doesn't transform into something different. I'd say this upgrade is like a 3.09 to a 3.12, not a 3.09 to a 4.0, and I upgrade tons of programs to the next full version up without taking anything away from the interface or functionality.

    It's getting old, people making this "didn't someone SAY they were going to do the thing I'm accusing this of? let me twist the definition so it only fits my complaint"

    just stop, there are plenty of people out there (myself included, in this thread even) who have pointed out how the only additions are additions that elaborate on content from Safana's dialogue when she joins and tries to take over the party and lets the seductive mask slip to reveal the callous self-serving person willing to step on others to get to the top (something reinforced by her BG1 biography) as well as provide a link between how she was depicted in BG1 to the dismissiveness and contempt in BG2 that reaches such heights she actually full on betrays you, otherwise left relatively unexplained, via elaborating on that content that is canon in BG1 I just mentioned.

    these are not "changes" to existing games (i.e. BG1, ToSC, BG2, ToB), these are not "rewrites" of any existing content

    it is content which bridges two depictions of her character taking place in an expansion that bridges the two games those depictions happen inside of, and if you have a subjective opinion that those aspects of her personality shouldn't have been elaborated, fine, but don't try to argue it's a change or a rewrite to somehow canonize your opinion without considering what went before.

  • RathenauRathenau Member Posts: 80

    When I upgrade the software on my phone, my phone doesn't transform into something different. I'd say this upgrade is like a 3.09 to a 3.12, not a 3.09 to a 4.0, and I upgrade tons of programs to the next full version up without taking anything away from the interface or functionality.

    n odd comparison I must say. By upgrading the software on your phone you are indicatively changing the software, if it wasn't a change then you wouldn't need to upgrade it. Your phone doesn't change into a new model but the software it runs on is different to what it was before. It might seem the same from the interface, just as a character might still have the same model, but it's undeniably different on the inside.

    As for as me having a subjective option, well it might be news but opinions are always subjective.

    With that pedantic remark of mine out of the way, the way I see it is that something must have happened to Safana to change her way of thinking in BG2. The odd thing is that her character is different at the very start of the expansion as oppose to any progression we might get to experience. If the goal was to link the two games together in such a fashion then it doesn't make sense to implement said changes right at the very start of the expansion.

    Again I must reiterate my previous point that if a writer says:
    If there was something for the original Baldur’s Gate that just doesn’t mesh for modern day gamers like the sexism... In the original there’s a lot of jokes at women’s expense. Or if not a lot, there’s a couple, like Safana was just a sex object in BG 1, and Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy. We were able to say, “No, that’s not really the kind of story we want to make.” In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don’t like that, then too bad.
    So depicted in bullet points:
    • Safana and Jaheira are sexist.
    • The writer didn't want to work with those tools
    • Safana has gotten a better personality upgrade.
    So saying that nothing has changed in those character when it is clear as day that they have is a position you cannot hope to maintain. You are free to try off course.

  • namenlosnamenlos Member Posts: 51
    @Rathenau
    "As for as me having a subjective option, well it might be news but opinions are always subjective."

    Then why is anyone debating, it's all opinion anyways... probably time to let it go.

    As for your next point, the original Safana told us she likes oranges, now she likes oranges and apples. Did she like apples before and just not tell us? Or is this a new facet of her personality that just developed I.E. she had an apple for the first time and liked. Besides the fact that people experience rapid changes in personality all the time...

    "there’s a lot of jokes at women’s expense. Or if not a lot, there’s a couple,"

    This is the part of the quote that you could focus on if you'd like to go on and on about something. It is vague at best, saying that there is "sooo much of this" and then adding "well maybe not sooo much, but a little at least" just sounds silly, maybe just to me though.

    Is that an open invitation, cause I'll try I guess.
    Meh, the writer says they were expanding on the characters and giving them more to work with(see apples and oranges above) and now it's just your opinion that Safana and Jaheira cannot act like that. If I decide to like or do something new and change to reflect that... wtf happened to me? Do I explode for trying new things and stepping out of my programmed box?

    But hey, it's all opinion anyways.

    typo_tilly
  • Sids1188Sids1188 Member Posts: 165


    2. At least one MAJOR plot point of BG1 was altered in order for SoD's story to proceed:

    Entar had been raised from the dead, despite the fact that BG1's entire climax hinged on the fact that he was dead and gone for good.

    Perhaps my memory is even worse than I thought (wouldn't surprise me), but I'm pretty sure it was Scar (the head of the Flaming Fist) that was dead and gone. Wasn't Entar the guy I found upstairs in the Flaming Fist compound being poisoned by a doppleganger, leading me to save him and take him to the harbourmaster for healing? Was there some report I missed of him being killed after that?

  • DoubledimasDoubledimas Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 1,148
    Sids1188 said:

    Perhaps my memory is even worse than I thought (wouldn't surprise me), but I'm pretty sure it was Scar (the head of the Flaming Fist) that was dead and gone. Wasn't Entar the guy I found upstairs in the Flaming Fist compound being poisoned by a doppleganger, leading me to save him and take him to the harbourmaster for healing? Was there some report I missed of him being killed after that?

    That's Eltan


    Sids1188
  • Sids1188Sids1188 Member Posts: 165
    edited May 2016

    Sids1188 said:

    Perhaps my memory is even worse than I thought (wouldn't surprise me), but I'm pretty sure it was Scar (the head of the Flaming Fist) that was dead and gone. Wasn't Entar the guy I found upstairs in the Flaming Fist compound being poisoned by a doppleganger, leading me to save him and take him to the harbourmaster for healing? Was there some report I missed of him being killed after that?

    That's Eltan



    Ah, I stand corrected. Always got the characters mixed up around that part of the game. Normally I get the two I mentioned confused ;p

  • T2avT2av Member Posts: 202
    Why is there a transgendered character to begin with? When theres magic(sometimes wild), potions... Belts.. Scrolls(think edwin/edwina)... Etc that can change one's gender....

    It seems the writer(s).. Just shoved in as many SJW buzzword topics and trying to see what sticks without actually having played BG1 or BG2...

    Characters need to be organic... The writing needs to unfold... not be forced with some political/social agenda.

    Rawgrim
  • dockaboomskidockaboomski Member Posts: 435
    edited September 2016
    EDIT: I lied, I really don't want to start another dialogue about this. We're all tired of it.

    GenderNihilismGirdleAyiekieCrevsDaak
  • StradlinStradlin Member Posts: 142
    edited October 2016



    So, please, stop telling about rewriting Safana in order to be in tune with her original personality.

    SoD Safana is very much in tune with BG1 Safana, but with more banters, a romance and voiced lines.

    It is nice to hear you found her in tune with the original!

    Thing is, if she appears very loyal and unchanged to original in Siege, it means devs kinda failed with their intentions I guess. I wager most people got riled up by the pre-release Kotaku interview, rather than what is actually in-game.

    One of the Beamdog devs had this to say about Safana's writing:
    “If there was something for the original Baldur’s Gate that just doesn’t mesh for modern day gamers like the sexism, [we tried to address that],” said writer Amber Scott. “In the original there’s a lot of jokes at women’s expense. Or if not a lot, there’s a couple, like Safana was just a sex object in BG 1, and Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy. We were able to say, ‘No, that’s not really the kind of story we want to make.’ In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don’t like that, then too bad.”'


    I think approach and vision implied in quote above is what got people riled up pre-release, rather than anything that is actually in-game. All joinable NPCs in Baldur's Gate are mostly caricatures. None of them gets that much dialogue, so it was necessary to come up with something that stands out fast. As result,most all of them are somehow flawed or have a quirk or bright spot that can be communicated to players quickly and easily. Safana got accused of being bit of a slut. How much of a flaw is that, when you compare it to parade of schizophrenics, sociopaths, manic-depressive cases and borderline handicapped people that fill your party? Ultimately, I think this what got people riled up. Thought that somebody is so driven and eclipsed by some SJW agenda that a slutty fictional person appears more "broken" than equally fictional people with broken minds is kinda..obscene. I wonder how insulting this stuff appears to women who actually do consider themselves as sluts, heh. " Oh nice, I like sleeping around. Looks like there are people who feel my fictional counterparts are broken or obsolete in ways that makes them n need of more urgent repair than murderous schizophrenics. cool." ; o

    TLDR
    I think the ourgage about Safana was due to pre-release buzz of an interview, rather than what is actually in game. I'm pretty sure Beamdogs knowingly used both sides of the utterly insufferable SJWvSGamegate thing in order to manufacture bit of an outrage. Good visibility. No clue if it paid off, or whether it translated to more people wanting to buy the expansion.



  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 792
    Actually, people flipped out at the game first (about Mizhena and Minsc's joke dialogue), then found the interview. Also, said interview has been utterly discussed to death already. I'd rather not see this thread closed because of the usual go-round, so I will only note that I disagree with basically everything you've said, and that it is asinine to say Beamdog manufactured the outrage.

  • StradlinStradlin Member Posts: 142
    edited October 2016
    When I disagree with some post by somebody somewhere so completely, I myself usually either completely ignore it or explain why I feel they are wrong. Waltzing by just to provide an Internet equivalent of LALALALLALA always seems kinda counter productive. But hay, that's just me.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,114
    Really, it's not a big deal.

    NimranGenderNihilismGirdleGrumCrevsDaak
  • AasimAasim Member Posts: 493
    If there is popular demand, I can probably rewrite those troubled Mizhena lines into something different and make a small Weidu mod out of it.
    I.e.
    "I was a squirell once, but I always felt different. So now I'm a priest. Got any walnuts, punk? Well, do ya?"
    Feel free to suggest different lines.

    Would that make all happy so that poor Mizhena can rest in peace after all these threads about her?

    TressetCrevsDaak
  • DoubledimasDoubledimas Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 1,148
    @Aasim: no need, as according to Trentthat rework is already done and will be included in v2.4.

    GenderNihilismGirdle
  • BeowulfBeowulf Member Posts: 236
    As you I have boasted before I am a fighter/ranger/archer/stalker I have a very specfic set of skills I can train and employ and I decided to take just one more contract job purely for the cash. One can only hope the Persian Gulf men I happen to have met wel working are somehow better for it.

    So I do now have internet again (check my url local address lol) but before I wad playing Siege again on my laptop in off times. I really have no pony or dog in the gamergate haters vs hatets. As I said before the only readon I even know about it is this brought on the forums. It did make me reconsider some of the philosophy put forth into the game.

    I have come to the conclision Siege is Marxist! The original Baldurs Gate 2 is Neo Con conservative Statist!

    Nalia the rabid Lennin Marxist who helps the poor of the slums and hates her rich upbringing is treated with mocking by tge writers as a rather foolish powerless deceived girl. The male character can save her and her estate by becoming a govenor a assuming tge Good Working of the State who as any necon staetest loves makes war and kills another state to prove how great central fovernment is in victory.
    An even greater icon of the state and a Neo Con who could serve with G.B. or B. O. drone striking and intervening everywhere is the ultimately diefied Keldorn Firecam who kills in the name of the state government crushing relgious heresy that moves the masses away from his state relgipn of Law order and submission.


    on the othet hand we have a State that has failed in Siege. The government can not hold nack the crowds of the Maxists workers it trys to crush. The character applauds the Maxists ideas of a brpken bridge that will trouble the profits of the rich. There are too many Marxist themes of opressipn by the government to cover but the game is clearly trying to convince the player that the inflexible state should be aboloshed and it is its evil goverment of self righteous capitalists that hopefully can be overcome. the Corwin archer player character overcomes her foul goverment police duty status and helps the charter in esacpe the overarching state like a good Marxist who killed the royal family in 1919.

    So Baldurs Gate 2 is the product of the minds of Statest Neo Con War makers

    and

    Siege of Dragonspear is the product of Marxist social justice mind makers.

    I bought them all but not thier mindsets!

    Cheers... I am going to buck the state and the relgion and wrear questionable shorts again here.

    CrevsDaak
Sign In or Register to comment.