Maybe it missed it, but has anyone yet given an example of where one of the NPCs said something that clashes with their depiction in the original games?
People cry about a personality change, but I just don't see it. Of course, I have just completed the game with Khalid and Jaheira, so I might have missed something regarding Minsc, Dynaheir or Safana.
I wasn't a fan of the writing, but Amber Scott and all of Beamdog deserve respect. I'm grateful we have these Enhanced Editions to play, expansions are just icing on the cake.
Your turn btw. Grum, to proof that gamergate is behind it all. I have still not seen any shred of evidence that any noteworthy gamergater asked his followers to negatively review the game like a mob.
Neither you nor mzachy has posted the tiniest shred of evidence. and have ingored the demand for proof time and time again. you are really pathetic at this poor attempt of manipulation. the only thing you both succeeded is making a fool out of yourselfs.
you pretended she didn't say what we all have read that she said. everybody who wasn#t as lazy as you have read what Scott has said. And you and mzachy so bitterly tried to frame all the negative reviews on gamergate. very very poor attempt at manipulation.
point remains: a bad game, gets bad reviews from plenty of diffrent people..
Safana, like all Baldur's Gate NPCs who weren't playable in the sequel, is a garbage one-note cardboard cutout and giving her a "personality upgrade" is more than welcome.
Maybe it missed it, but has anyone yet given an example of where one of the NPCs said something that clashes with their depiction in the original games?
People cry about a personality change, but I just don't see it. Of course, I have just completed the game with Khalid and Jaheira, so I might have missed something regarding Minsc, Dynaheir or Safana.
Safana in bg1 was a character who played with her sexuality to get her ways. She was a temptress. Now Safana is rather cynical and snarky most of the time you talk to her.
That is bascially what is boils down to.
I agree though that the changes in Jahreia are rather mild, since she doesn't have that much to say anyways. Still Safana got a complete makeover like Amber Scott has stated.
Whever or not she is an important character is besides the point though. She was part of the orginal, and neither does it make sense that a character changes her personailty from one second to the other ( since this game neatly ties to bg1) nor is it honoring the memory of fans that one of their beloved characters is not the way we remembered her. making a statement that her personality is "improved" is simply arrogant and reeks of personal agenda.
point remains: a bad game, gets bad reviews from plenty of diffrent people..
I JUST LOVE IT when folks like yourself treat their opinions as fact.../facepalm
where do i say that everybody thinks that? It is my opinions yes, and the opinion of obviously many others as the reviews show. please keep your obvious falsifications of my statements to yourself. its amazing how you literally quote me and then pretend i said something diffent: "a bad game, gets bad reviews from plenty of diffrent people.." these desperate attempts to whitewash the critism are gringy at best.
the point is that many people think its a bad game, thats why it gets so many bad reviews.
From what I have seen Safana DID get a personality change. Not sure about Jaheira though. The fact that the game makes a point out of the player having to compliment a gorgeous woman for her ability, and not her looks, is kind of....I dunno. I can see why people think that Safana smells of an agenda. It does seem rather obvious. Given the comment about Safana just being a sex object etc
Safana in bg1 was a character who played with her sexuality to get her ways. She was a temptress. Now Safana is rather cynical and snarky most of the time you talk to her.
Kind of like in BG2 when she displayed none of her former flirtatiousness and is just a cold-blooded assassin who wants to kill Charname and yells at Coran for being stupid.
Safana, like all Baldur's Gate NPCs who weren't playable in the sequel, is a garbage one-note cardboard cutout and giving her a "personality upgrade" is more than welcome.
In my opinion, if there is an established personality and changing it is about reducing perceived sexism and not the story, a change like that cannot be an improvement. Personalities are supposed to have flaws! I loved Safana's shameless exploitation of her own sexuality (some would call that empowering) and I loved Jaheira too, even if she nags, because she is such a strong woman. I can only imagine she must have been a female role model just the way she was.
Safana, like all Baldur's Gate NPCs who weren't playable in the sequel, is a garbage one-note cardboard cutout and giving her a "personality upgrade" is more than welcome.
In my opinion, if there is an established personality and changing it is about reducing perceived sexism and not the story, a change like that cannot be an improvement. Personalities are supposed to have flaws! I loved Safana's shameless exploitation of her own sexuality (some would call that empowering) and I loved Jaheira too, even if she nags, because she is such a strong woman. I can only imagine she must have been a female role model just the way she was.
Isabela in Dragon Age 2 was basically Savana version 2.0. Way more fleshed out, of course. But same personality.
In Chapter 7, when Safana plays a skeleton's ribs like a xylophone, she strikes the same rib in succession, yet she produces two clearly different tones. I mean, what are we to believe, that this is a magic xylophone, or something? Ha ha, boy, I really hope somebody got fired for that blunder.
Safana in bg1 was a character who played with her sexuality to get her ways. She was a temptress. Now Safana is rather cynical and snarky most of the time you talk to her.
Kind of like in BG2 when she displayed none of her former flirtatiousness and is just a cold-blooded assassin who wants to kill Charname and yells at Coran for being stupid.
yes, clearly a subject of critism, though in bg2 she was not a playable character. and there was a lot of time between bg1 and bg2. time in which her personality could have changed.
the authors simply didn#t show us her story between bg1 and bg2.
that is a diffrence when you make a game that supposedly plays "directly" after bg1. no time for her change in between.
In my opinion, if there is an established personality
There isn't. There's a gimmick. An archetype. She's the seductress. That's it. And whatever their reasons, I would rather Beamdog put their own spin on the character and try to make her more interesting, instead of leaving her as a big pile of sexy nothing to appease people who complain when anything changes.
In my opinion, if there is an established personality
There isn't. There's a gimmick. An archetype. She's the seductress. That's it. And whatever their reasons, I would rather Beamdog put their own spin on the character and try to make her more interesting, instead of leaving her as a big pile of sexy nothing to appease people who complain when anything changes.
Her bio in BG1 is in tune with her character in the game too. It is not in tune with her new SoD personality.
you are not hiding the shameful behaviour of "the" writer who identified as an sjw and told the world that she doesn't care if her writing is fake or forced,
Therefor you were not correctly representing the truth, as the reality of the matter is that she doesn't care if other people think that her writing is fake or forced. Which is something very different.
We already established that GG is selective in their pursuit of ethics, but how is it ethical to purposely misquote a writer whose views you don't like?
i see grum is still trying to make people believe that the interview didn't state that she doesnt care if people think her writing is forced or fake lol. i have a feeling you are actually mentally ill. but then again many sjws are.
the claim was exactly right and is just like she said it and how we have discussed the entire last pages. In short Grum is a liar. One thing that really grinds my gears is people with an agenda falsifying information to make their opposition look bad.
and you are too late to the party. we have allready moved on to the to topic of chracter personality change.
and a writer who saiys she doen't care if her writing is seen as fake or forced, is a shitty writer, and shows a blatant disintrest to make something that gamers enjoy.
the result is this games writing.
Thank you for FINALLY providing a link and a source. Was that so hard?
And what's funny is that I didn't know that it was a forum post, as I keep hearing interview. Good to finally have that in context.
Now, for my point behind all of this, my gamergate friend. If you are going to make claims, and someone asks for proof of your claims, then provide it. Don't run away from it. That's called ethics in journalism. From your post I got the impression that there was some sort of acknowledgement from her end that her work was somehow forced or fake. Now I see that is not the case.
So THANK YOU for finally caving in to my pressure and providing me with the evidence needed to back your post up.
This really is the center of ethics in journalism. I'm not sure why you resisted it so hard.
----
As for me and providing evidence that GamerGate was behind it all. That's easy.
(1) GamerGate gets up in arms about this. (2) GamerGate invades our forums. (3) Negative reviews flood sites that don't require you to buy the game. The reviews are full of people using GG terminology, like SJW. (4) Without GamerGate, the shyt storm wouldn't have been as pronounced, as GG gave everyone who was upset about having a trans character and a joke about GG the rallying cry and echo chamber needed to start the reviewbombing.
Now, do I have direct proof that GG has planned everything out? No, I have no direct quotes. I don't even know where GG folks congregate. But if a swarm of people who use the same talking points, the same terminology, and have the exact same issues all attack at once...well that is pretty clear.
In my opinion, if there is an established personality
There isn't. There's a gimmick. An archetype. She's the seductress. That's it. And whatever their reasons, I would rather Beamdog put their own spin on the character and try to make her more interesting, instead of leaving her as a big pile of sexy nothing to appease people who complain when anything changes.
I did say 'if' I know the personality isn't always well-defined, however, many people felt that at least Jaheira and Minsc were well defined, and many feel Safana has changed. Though, she may just be showing us parts of what her personality were always meant to be - a side we never saw but always existed.
Safana, like all Baldur's Gate NPCs who weren't playable in the sequel, is a garbage one-note cardboard cutout and giving her a "personality upgrade" is more than welcome.
Correct, but according to many in this thread (which I mistakenly clicked on again after a few days off) she was one of the great female characters in fiction, on par with Jane Eyre or Hester Prynne.
The reason she got changed is because the writer wanted players to stop thinking of her as a sex object, but a person. Since that equals that they think of real women as nothing but sex objects and that is completely wrong. She was the only "sex object" in the original game, and she ended up being the only character that got a personality transplant.
Lets call a spade a spade here.
I'd say the new Safana is actually better, though. More fleshed out and all that. Still. Could have sent the same message without messing with an original character. Could have just made a brand new character instead for the same purpose.
In my opinion, if there is an established personality
There isn't. There's a gimmick. An archetype. She's the seductress. That's it. And whatever their reasons, I would rather Beamdog put their own spin on the character and try to make her more interesting, instead of leaving her as a big pile of sexy nothing to appease people who complain when anything changes.
Her bio in BG1 is in tune with her character in the game too. It is not in tune with her new SoD personality.
I couldn't care less about the bios. Information like that should be delivered naturally as we get to know the character, not as an infodump buried two layers deep in the character sheet. If the fact that she was born to a noble in Calimport or whatever doesn't come up in any meaningful way, it may as well be disregarded.
You want to talk about bad writing? That's bad writing.
In all the times I've played Baldur's Gate (either of them), I've never once stopped for even one second to say to myself "my god, this writing is amazing". I doubt most anybody else did either. The best writing in the game may be the line "so I kicked him in the head til he was dead" or "I serve the Flaming Fist", because literally NOTHING rises above that level for the entire series.
In my opinion, if there is an established personality
There isn't. There's a gimmick. An archetype. She's the seductress. That's it. And whatever their reasons, I would rather Beamdog put their own spin on the character and try to make her more interesting, instead of leaving her as a big pile of sexy nothing to appease people who complain when anything changes.
Her bio in BG1 is in tune with her character in the game too. It is not in tune with her new SoD personality.
I couldn't care less about the bios. Information like that should be delivered naturally as we get to know the character, not as an infodump buried two layers deep in the character sheet. If the fact that she was born to a noble in Calimport or whatever doesn't come up in any meaningful way, it may as well be disregarded.
You want to talk about bad writing? That's bad writing.
By today's standards, yes. It should have come up in a conversation with her. Back then it was very good, though. You can't blame a game for not having had the same development in writing and dialogue etc, as games that came out last year etc. It is like bashing Super Mario 3 for poor graphics in 2016.
In all the times I've played Baldur's Gate (either of them), I've never once stopped for even one second to say to myself "my god, this writing is amazing". I doubt most anybody else did either. The best writing in the game may be the line "so I kicked him in the head til he was dead" or "I serve the Flaming Fist", because literally NOTHING rises above that level for the entire series.
While playing BG I constantly stop and say to myself "my god, this writing is amazing." Case in point: Portalbendarwinden.
Safana in bg1 was a character who played with her sexuality to get her ways.* She was a temptress. Now Safana is rather cynical and snarky most of the time you talk to her.
Really? Name 5 instances in BG1 where she played with her sexuality to get her ways. I give you 1, when you recruit her. Now name 4 more.
I agree though that the changes in Jahreia are rather mild, since she doesn't have that much to say anyways. Still Safana got a complete makeover like Amber Scott has stated.
Whever or not she is an important character is besides the point though. She was part of the orginal, and neither does it make sense that a character changes her personailty from one second to the other ( since this game neatly ties to bg1) nor is it honoring the memory of fans that one of their beloved characters is not the way we remembered her. making a statement that her personality is "improved" is simply arrogant and reeks of personal agenda.
Nah, the fact of the matter is that people mistake: 'makes flirty/sultry comments as default' with 'personality' also her voiced lines in BG1 were already plenty snarky (starts after Quayle): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZlQCRwkeB8#
In all the times I've played Baldur's Gate (either of them), I've never once stopped for even one second to say to myself "my god, this writing is amazing". I doubt most anybody else did either. The best writing in the game may be the line "so I kicked him in the head til he was dead" or "I serve the Flaming Fist", because literally NOTHING rises above that level for the entire series.
The intro is very well written. The whole bit with Gorion, really. It really set the tone for the story.
@grum I wonder if it was so hard for you to find the interview everybody was allready discussing yourself. you raged around for pages because of your own lazyness while everybody here has read the interview. i am not your google machine. if you want to take part in an discussion at least inform yourself about what people are talking about. making accusations based on your own lack of knowledge well thats just rich. the interview clearly shows she has no interest of writing anything good. she didnt care of her writing is seens as forced or fake. not the quality you might seek in a writer who should satify her audiance.
and you made pointless accusation about gamergate mzachy and you are still not proving any evidance as to gamergates involvement.
@mzachy is still ignoring it becuase he knows he has nothing at hand and has excactly established nothing, since no noteable gamergater told anybody to target beamdog. the only place where you established your own biased views is in your own head. i wonder how is it ethical to pretend to have established something without a single shred of proof? you keep ignoring the demand for proof that has been posted several times now.
and you @grum simply make more accusations. without any proof.
do you even realize how much of a fool you make of yourselfs.
provide proof that notable gamergaters have called for an review attack on this game. no such thing happend. you are simply using gamergate as a buzzword so you don't have to deal with the actuall critism people brought up. that itself is very deceptive.
you lack the ability to provide proof since you have none as is evident by your statements:
-(1) GamerGate gets up in arms about this. ----provide proof, where did this happen? who rallied them? -(2) GamerGate invades our forums. ----provide proof that the people who ciritse the game are mainly gamergaters -(3) Negative reviews flood sites that don't require you to buy the game. The reviews are full of people using GG terminology, like SJW. ----sjws is a terminology even newscasters use nowadays not only gamergaters. you lack proof that these reviews come from gamergaters -(4) Without GamerGate, the shyt storm wouldn't have been as pronounced, ----again you lack proof. without gamergate original baldurs gate fans would still have gotten a game served that isn't true to the original and full of token characters and bad writing or character changes. the outrage would be quite the same.
Apparently it's very very hard for you to give even the tiniest grain of substantial evidance. but i didnt expect any, dont worry. someone who rages for 2 pages about an interview that everybody knows about, has a hard time finding anything. you still have the burden of proof on you that gamergate is involved. you provided no link to any sources for your claims. nothing. as your entire obvious attempt to swep the critism of this game under the rug by using buzzwords amounts to nothing.
By today's standards, yes. It should have come up in a conversation with her. Back then it was very good, though. You can't blame a game for not having had the same development in writing and dialogue etc, as games that came out last year etc. It is like bashing Super Mario 3 for poor graphics in 2016.
Super Mario 3 looks the way it does because of technological limitations. You don't need 2016 technology to write good.
Comments
People cry about a personality change, but I just don't see it. Of course, I have just completed the game with Khalid and Jaheira, so I might have missed something regarding Minsc, Dynaheir or Safana.
Neither you nor mzachy has posted the tiniest shred of evidence. and have ingored the demand for proof time and time again.
you are really pathetic at this poor attempt of manipulation.
the only thing you both succeeded is making a fool out of yourselfs.
you pretended she didn't say what we all have read that she said. everybody who wasn#t as lazy as you have read what Scott has said. And you and mzachy so bitterly tried to frame all the negative reviews on gamergate.
very very poor attempt at manipulation.
point remains: a bad game, gets bad reviews from plenty of diffrent people..
Now Safana is rather cynical and snarky most of the time you talk to her.
That is bascially what is boils down to.
I agree though that the changes in Jahreia are rather mild, since she doesn't have that much to say anyways. Still Safana got a complete makeover like Amber Scott has stated.
Whever or not she is an important character is besides the point though. She was part of the orginal, and neither does it make sense that a character changes her personailty from one second to the other ( since this game neatly ties to bg1)
nor is it honoring the memory of fans that one of their beloved characters is not the way we remembered her.
making a statement that her personality is "improved" is simply arrogant and reeks of personal agenda.
please keep your obvious falsifications of my statements to yourself. its amazing how you literally quote me and then pretend i said something diffent: "a bad game, gets bad reviews from plenty of diffrent people.."
these desperate attempts to whitewash the critism are gringy at best.
the point is that many people think its a bad game, thats why it gets so many bad reviews.
the authors simply didn#t show us her story between bg1 and bg2.
that is a diffrence when you make a game that supposedly plays "directly" after bg1. no time for her change in between.
We already established that GG is selective in their pursuit of ethics, but how is it ethical to purposely misquote a writer whose views you don't like?
And what's funny is that I didn't know that it was a forum post, as I keep hearing interview. Good to finally have that in context.
Now, for my point behind all of this, my gamergate friend. If you are going to make claims, and someone asks for proof of your claims, then provide it. Don't run away from it. That's called ethics in journalism. From your post I got the impression that there was some sort of acknowledgement from her end that her work was somehow forced or fake. Now I see that is not the case.
So THANK YOU for finally caving in to my pressure and providing me with the evidence needed to back your post up.
This really is the center of ethics in journalism. I'm not sure why you resisted it so hard.
----
As for me and providing evidence that GamerGate was behind it all. That's easy.
(1) GamerGate gets up in arms about this.
(2) GamerGate invades our forums.
(3) Negative reviews flood sites that don't require you to buy the game. The reviews are full of people using GG terminology, like SJW.
(4) Without GamerGate, the shyt storm wouldn't have been as pronounced, as GG gave everyone who was upset about having a trans character and a joke about GG the rallying cry and echo chamber needed to start the reviewbombing.
Now, do I have direct proof that GG has planned everything out? No, I have no direct quotes. I don't even know where GG folks congregate. But if a swarm of people who use the same talking points, the same terminology, and have the exact same issues all attack at once...well that is pretty clear.
I know the personality isn't always well-defined, however, many people felt that at least Jaheira and Minsc were well defined, and many feel Safana has changed. Though, she may just be showing us parts of what her personality were always meant to be - a side we never saw but always existed.
Lets call a spade a spade here.
I'd say the new Safana is actually better, though. More fleshed out and all that. Still. Could have sent the same message without messing with an original character. Could have just made a brand new character instead for the same purpose.
You want to talk about bad writing? That's bad writing.
Complaints about whatever 'changes' were made are nonsensical. You cannot change what didn't exist in the first place.
These cries fall into the category of 'throw it against the wall and see if it sticks'.
I wonder if it was so hard for you to find the interview everybody was allready discussing yourself.
you raged around for pages because of your own lazyness while everybody here has read the interview.
i am not your google machine. if you want to take part in an discussion at least inform yourself about what people are talking about. making accusations based on your own lack of knowledge well thats just rich.
the interview clearly shows she has no interest of writing anything good. she didnt care of her writing is seens as forced or fake. not the quality you might seek in a writer who should satify her audiance.
and you made pointless accusation about gamergate
mzachy and you are still not proving any evidance as to gamergates involvement.
@mzachy is still ignoring it becuase he knows he has nothing at hand and has excactly established nothing, since no noteable gamergater told anybody to target beamdog. the only place where you established your own biased views is in your own head.
i wonder how is it ethical to pretend to have established something without a single shred of proof? you keep ignoring the demand for proof that has been posted several times now.
and you @grum simply make more accusations. without any proof.
do you even realize how much of a fool you make of yourselfs.
provide proof that notable gamergaters have called for an review attack on this game.
no such thing happend.
you are simply using gamergate as a buzzword so you don't have to deal with the actuall critism people brought up.
that itself is very deceptive.
you lack the ability to provide proof since you have none as is evident by your statements:
-(1) GamerGate gets up in arms about this.
----provide proof, where did this happen? who rallied them?
-(2) GamerGate invades our forums.
----provide proof that the people who ciritse the game are mainly gamergaters
-(3) Negative reviews flood sites that don't require you to buy the game. The reviews are full of people using GG terminology, like SJW.
----sjws is a terminology even newscasters use nowadays not only gamergaters. you lack proof that these reviews come from gamergaters
-(4) Without GamerGate, the shyt storm wouldn't have been as pronounced,
----again you lack proof. without gamergate original baldurs gate fans would still have gotten a game served that isn't true to the original and full of token characters and bad writing or character changes. the outrage would be quite the same.
Apparently it's very very hard for you to give even the tiniest grain of substantial evidance. but i didnt expect any, dont worry. someone who rages for 2 pages about an interview that everybody knows about, has a hard time finding anything.
you still have the burden of proof on you that gamergate is involved.
you provided no link to any sources for your claims. nothing.
as your entire obvious attempt to swep the critism of this game under the rug by using buzzwords amounts to nothing.