Cavaliers or Roundheads?

Permidion_Stark

I generally play as a paladin and when I do I always choose to be a cavalier because they conform to my idea of what a knight in shining armour should be (no missile weapons, immune to fear, good at smiting dragons). However, the name 'Cavalier' has always seemed a peculiar one to me. Aren't cavaliers supposed to be roistering chaps with big feathers in their hats who like to eat, drink and be merry with the ladies of the town?

Now I'm not saying a paladin has to be a puritanical roundhead but wouldn't it have made more sense to call them knights rather than cavaliers?

Cheesebelly

Isn't a "Cavalier" or Chevalier literally just a horseman? I mean, horse, Latin is Caballus... Cabal-caval? :P

Now, where they DID use it in real life, that's a different thing. It's open up to interpretation really, I mean, the game is still a fantasy setting after all. For instance, a Paladin was always employed by a Monarch, yes? While in this setting, it seems like they are just an order of people.


PS - Wasn't Permidion Stark a *thief* attempting a heist against Talanthyr? Oh, the irony XD (just kidding )

Brude

Paladin, my arse!

I know you, Stark! You were skulking around High Hedge the other night. You're nothing but a common thief. I should report you to the Flaming Fist, I should!

Lemernis

Good point. Cavalier means horseman. According to Wikipedia they're more like swashbucklers. Knight is a better term for sure.

bbear

I always envision paladins are like medieval knights, fighters are the foot soldiers and the rangers are archers. Arent knights suppose to ride on their horseys in battles? It would be great if paladins can fight on horseback in the wilderness (or anywhere outside cities and dungeons).

Edit: Perhaps paladin can summon a "magical horse" (or unicorn lol) outside a building, the same way how the priest spell call lightning only works outside. The paladin rides on the horse, gain extra hp just like a mage familiar (but temporarily). When fighting on horseback, two handed weapons become more effective and single handed weapon less effective. Also, the movement speed increases.

cyberhawk

Knight and cavalier mean basically the same thing. The translation of knight to different languages is often something that uses "horseriding" as part of the gramatical root of the word.

The origin of the meaning is, nobles were the only people riding a horse at war. They were also the only ones who needed a horse to carry them (think of the medieval full plate armor, it's heavy as freaking hell). Not to mention, commoners couldn't afford horses for the most part and just got simple weapons from their lord, or whomever they belonged to.

Being a cavalier also meant following a certain moral codex, much like paladins of the forgotten realms. The codex goes back to sagas of king Arthur, at least. So it also involves being nice to women in danger, but always stay true to your wife, help everyone without asking for someting in return, duel guys who insulted you (unless they are some shitty commoners, not worthy of your time) etc. I'm not saying real knights always were like that, only that they tried to seem like it

Michal

Cavalier is based on french chevalier, which means knight (from medieval latin caballarius - rider).
And from chevalier we've got words like chivalry.

So cavalier is okay for paragon knight in shining armour.

Shin

What @Michal said. The literal meanings of the origin of words aren't always that closely related to their meaning in later times, especially when viewed only from the perspective of a single language. The word knight comes from the germanic knecht afaik, which originally meant a boy servant or field/stable hand. I believe it still retains the boy/male child meaning in Danish, as "knaegt" for instance, whereas in Swedish the word "knekt" is more akin to foot soldier or mercenary.

Also what @cyberhawk said. I believe English is quite uncommon in having a word for knight that is based on the above knecht rather than a word involving horse riding. May just have been happenstance that they didn't end up being called riders or similar instead.

Lemernis

Apart from the roots of the word, I think the way that the term "cavalier" was actually used was not what we think:

Wikipedia:

Shakespeare used the word cavaleros to describe an overbearing swashbuckler or swaggering gallant...

"Cavalier" is chiefly associated with the Royalist supporters of King Charles I in his struggle with Parliament in the English Civil War. It first appears as a term of reproach and contempt, applied to the followers of King Charles I during the summer of 1642...

Cavalier was not understood at the time as primarily a term describing a style of dress, but a whole political and social attitude. However, in modern times the word has become more particularly associated with the court fashions of the period, which included long flowing hair in ringlets, brightly coloured with elaborate trimmings and lace collars and cuffs, and plumed hats.

They seem to be much more 'Three Muskateers'-like than the image the word "knight" conjures.

Again, per Wikipedia:

A knight is a person granted an honorary title of knighthood by a monarch or other political leader for service to the monarch or country, especially in a military capacity. Historically, in Europe, knighthood has been conferred upon mounted warriors. During the High Middle Ages, knighthood was considered a class of lower nobility. By the Late Middle Ages, the rank had become associated with the ideals of chivalry, a code of conduct for the perfect courtly Christian warrior.

Again, talking here about how the word was actually used historically versus its etymology.

Michal

If we look from broader perspective we can see that in different languages words describing horsemen were used as a name for members of specific social class (german ritter for example or eques polonus in Poland).

And of course cavalier was name for Royalist, but we are talking about pseudo-medieval fantasy, so I believe we should stick to medieval meanings of that word.

PS. In XIX century America (especially in Dixie) word "cavalier" was used to describe gentleman having specific code of conduct and good manners.

Permidion_Stark

Brude said:

Paladin, my arse!

I know you, Stark! You were skulking around High Hedge the other night. You're nothing but a common thief. I should report you to the Flaming Fist, I should!

I'm not a thief. I just take a cavalier attitude to other people's property.

HaHaCharade

Everytime I think "Cavalier" I think 1st Edition AD&D Cavaliers from the Unearthed Arcana who had Percentile Strength, Dex, and Con... And then if you played a Paladin they were considered a subset of Cavalier, and they got percentile Charisma as well....

Percentile Strength acted like the Percentile Strength we all know and love. Percentile in the other stats did nothing, you treated it like the first number (if you had 16/21 Dex, you had a 16) but as you leveled up, you got two roll some dice for each percentile stat (I think like 2D10) and add the stat. If you passed 00, you went up a stat (16 to 17, etc).

SO BROKEN. LOL But of course, to get the stats to play them was hard.

Anduin

Cavalier... Sorry gonna revert to teacher mode... 'You have a cavalier attitude' is a phrase that says that someone is carefree to the point of laxidaisal. Not very Paladin. On the other hand that term was passed on by the victors of the English civil war, that removed the question of England having an absolute monarchy allowing them to literally rule themselves (and thus in part everyone else in the empire that followed). Roundhead would be a much better term. They were puritanical to a fault. Prayed most of the day. Worked only for god and enjoyed burning heretics! Very Paladinny!

Permidion_Stark

Michal said:

And of course cavalier was name for Royalist, but we are talking about pseudo-medieval fantasy, so I believe we should stick to medieval meanings of that word

The word didn't exist in English in the medieval period. It wasn't used in England until the 1580s. I think knight or chevalier (coming in after the Norman conquest) would have been the terms used.

I'm with @Lemernis in thinking that the usage rather than the etymology of the word is of more relevance. The word cavalier has so many associations that are at odds with the image of the paladin in D&D that it seems a peculiar choice. Chevalier, in English at least, has none of its negative connotations and so might have been a better bet.

Still, it won't stop me playing them: immunity to fear and poison, +2 to saving throws and +3 when whacking dragons - it all works for me.