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Should Carthage be destroyed?

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  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    edited April 2016

    @GenderNihilismGirdle has some excellent points, and Rome's extirpation of Carthage was needlessly savage. However, I have to admit that I am against human sacrifice, esp. of children so Carthage must go.

    I'm pretty sure that was Roman propaganda, it's not sourced anywhere outside of Roman propaganda of the time that I'm aware of anyway (and, of course, of later Roman "historical" references to Carthage that were backwards-justifying such extreme actions based on what only existed inside their own pro-war propaganda of the period) and it's worthwhile to note that despite it very likely being Roman propaganda, Roman troops actually did slaughter a bunch of kids (and infants) in Carthage, and bragged about it afterwards. So the only ones proven to have engaged in the systematic killing of children in Carthage were Romans who felt Carthage should be destroyed.

    It's sort of like how, yeah Emperors were often bad people, but Caligula and Nero set the example for what to say about bad Emperors to the extent that we know some detractors of later Emperors were just trying to paint them posthumously with a bad brush by asserting stuff as bad as what Caligula and Nero did (and even some of what Caligula and Nero did is only sourced in the writings of their detractors and nowhere else, which isn't to say there weren't tons of things sourced every which way that they definitely did that were heinous, just that those things gave Roman writers liscence to heap on stuff they didn't do, and then in the future continue to heap those same things on them as if it was definitely the case based on one very biased writer that says things no other contemporary source attests).

    In other words, it's kind of a Roman tradition to lie about people and places they want others to hate or destroy or condemn, and the bigger and more sensational the lies the better.
    Apparently there is evidence supporting that the practice did happen, but at a rate of like 25 children a year among the elite.

    And of course the Romans did things that were at least as bad if not much, much worse, as you point out.

    Edit: I see Ayiekie got here first.
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    What is this thread's opinions on the Parthians?
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975

    What is this thread's opinions on the Parthians?

    They're really annoying to get started on in Rome Total War II.

    They're pretty cool, though somewhat less so than the Sassanids and Achaemenids (they are much easier to remember how to spell then the latter, though!). That may not be through any fault of theirs; we have a lot less direct sources on the Parthians than the other two great pre-Islamic empires, as they for various reasons left a lot less writing than any other period in Iranian history.

    The battle of Carrhae is still one of history's notable lopsided victories, with 9000 horse archers and 1000 cataphracts utterly destroying Crassus' seven legions of 50,000. The Parthians probably didn't kill Crassus (or desecrate his body) by pouring molten gold down his throat, but it sure made a memorable story.

    Rome and the Parthians (and the Sassanids after them) spent a fricking ridiculously enormous span of time squabbling over Armenia. By the time the Rashidun Caliphate put an end to their fighting over it (it was even a significant part of Khosrow II's ambitions in starting the last Sassanid-Byzantine war), one Iranian empire or another had been fighting with one Roman empire or another over Armenia for 700 fricking years with no resolution.

    Seriously. 700 years. That's quite a bit longer than the entire lifespan of the Western Roman Empire. Or, y'know, the time from the "discovery" of the Americas by Columbus until today. That is a lot of fighting over Armenia.

    The official language of Parthia was not Parthian, as you might expect, or Persian, or even Aramaic (the lingua franca of the area/period), but Greek, a legacy of the Seleucid post-Alexander-the-Great Hellenic state that the Parthians overthrew.

    Parthia actually had pretty regular trade and diplomatic contact with China, something which sadly not nearly enough is known about (at least by me). One of the first missionaries of Buddhism to China, An Shigao, was actually a Parthian nobleman who had purportedly renounced his noble titles to become a monk. On that note as well, Parthia was a confused but interesting hotbed of religions: Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Babylonian paganism, early Christianity, Judaism, Greek polytheism (sometimes syncretic with Zoroastrianism), and goodness knows what else. All this undoubtedly set the stage for the birthplace of Manichaeism (although it did not happen until a few decades after the Parthians were supplanted by the Sassanids), a not-quite-dead religion nowadays but that in its heyday was a major world religion with adherents from China to Europe (notably, St. Augustine of Hippo was a Manichaean who converted to Christianity).

    So, yeah. They're pretty cool!
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402

    A Roman walked into a bar and ordered a martinus.
    "Don't you mean a martini?" asked the bartender.
    The Roman replied "If I wanted a double I would have asked for it!"

    The next day the Roman comes back with four of his friends. He holds up two fingers and says "Five beers please"

    A man is traveling across story seas. When the weather gets especially bad the slaves start to wail. Hoping to restore courage the man says "don't worry, I've set you all free in my will!"

    Slave jokes, get you every time.
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402

    "Hey, that's the Byzantine Empire you are referring to, not the Roman Empire!" This is a perfectly reasonable thing to say. However my worthy friends, it is wrong. They were the Roman Empire, they called themselves the Roman Empire and they had sweet Viking warrior pals to mess up anyone who disagreed.

    That reasoning is pretty convoluted. You'll be more persuasive if you come up with an argument that is less . . . um . . . nevermind.

  • Diomedes33Diomedes33 Member Posts: 144
    In my game of Civ 5, Carthage is annoying.
  • MalicronMalicron Member Posts: 629
    Not even touching on the moral side of the debate, totally destroying Carthage and salting the fields was just too much damn work; even today it would be difficult, it was the definition of over-kill back in the day. Rome would have been much better served using the legions to build more roads, or securing it's farther flung holdings (I'm looking at you, Britannia!)
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