Well yes of course the aqueduct. That goes without saying. But apart from the aqueduct, what have they ever done for us?
The sanitation! Remember what the city used to be like?
Yes, yes yes. Sanitation too. But apart from the aqueduct and sanitation, what have the Romans ever done for us?
On a side note, I am very glad to wake up and find Saving Carthage surging into the lead.
And the roads...
Carthage had roads! Sumer had roads! Egypt had roads! Who are you trying to fool with this blatant pro-Roman propaganda? Next you'll be telling us the Romans invented rudimentary tool use and walking upright! Bah! Cato may have paid your wages sir, but I've walked with the Carthaginians on footpaths and roadways walked upon by the incomparable Dido in her prime and found them more amenable to my weary feet that any dismal byway Romulus and Remus once tread.
that's actually a holdover of thinking from 19th century Western historians obsessed with attaching Grecco-Roman primacy to things, we can see that some long stretches of highway attributed to Roman engineering in both the UK and in the Middle East are actually pre-Roman, and there are plenty of pre-Roman roads of just as grand scope and length in Emperor Ashoka's India (and in China around that time as well), so "us" (if by us we mean humans) got roads from all over the place, and even English-speaking Europeans have as much a debt to pre-Roman Celts as they do to Romans. What that article above doesn't go into is that some Roman engineering has since been shown to have been over top of pre-existing indigenous engineering projects, reinforcing the older work.
In Civ5, I usually destroy them as soon as possible. The extra gold they get from free harbours adds up extermely quockly and they turn defensive mountains to their advantage.
Besides that, you really can not say how the world would have been shaped if Carthage wasnt destroyed.
In Civ5, I usually destroy them as soon as possible. The extra gold they get from free harbours adds up extermely quockly and they turn defensive mountains to their advantage.
Besides that, you really can not say how the world would have been shaped if Carthage wasnt destroyed.
I keep meaning to get on this series, lots of people whose taste in fiction I trust have given glowing praise to this whenever I bring up how much I loved KSR's The Years of Rice and Salt.
What Cato the Elder enjoyed Was to say, "Carthage must be destroyed." Where this city was strewn is In modern-day Tunis — Yes, Cato's advice was deployed.
Neat, wish they were a little more clear about the dates. It would be interesting to know if they were pre-roman occupation/presence, pre-roman diplomatic contact, pre-roman development of roads, or just plain pre-rome.
Yeah, they say Iron Age here but early Iron Age and late Iron Age would yield very different answers. It's worth noting, though, that Roman diplomatic contact pretty much immediately preceded Roman military action, whereas there is evidence that Greek and Phoenician traders made contact with Britons long before Rome ever did, so if they got ideas from roads from elsewhere ironically it may have been from Phoenicians, who are among the founders of Carthage, rather than from Rome.
So really, what have the Romans done for us that the Carthaginians didn't do first might be the more pertinent question! Although personally I think we can give most humans who made roads and highways credit for thinking up the idea themselves, given the multi-continental character of their emergence independent of contact with other road-building peoples, rather than the hokey outdated idea of "enlightened civs civilizing the barbarian civs" but that's another topic.
Have you seen or read Barbarians by Terry Jones? If not, I urge you to do it. It's a very interresting take on roman history, challenging many things modern day historians take for granted.
One of the most interresting things he presents in the book is the theory that the roman empire might just as well have been a massive regressive force of the evolution in technology/architecture/etc rather then the opposite (which we usually believe) since it created so little new itself in the many hundreds of years it existed and was quite effective at destroying any attemps from non-Romans as well. There's even findings of a greek steam machine from this era which for some reason was never developed any further. Oppression perhaps?
As always, the truth is probably not so black or white, but it's still a very interresting read.
And the wine! That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left.
Public baths! And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.
If I remember correctly... Public toilets were not that great a hit.
Plus... When it came to personal hygiene... They shared a sponge...
Also. I am sad to inform you, that the Greeks came first in many of these things by the order of a good 500 years.
Irrigation can go as far back to the 7th millennium and even further with egyptians and mesopotamians, drawing water from the Nile or the Euphrates and Tigris respectively...
...
And... A little bit of my heart will never forgive the romans for killing Archimedes...
For anyone interested in this period in time, I cannot recommend this podcast enough. Dan Carlin's works are some of my favorite podcasts (he has two). This series is lengthy, so don't expect to breeze through it in one setting, but I found it highly worth listening through, and likely will again. dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-punic-nightmares-series/
Comments
The romans enslaved my people! Let's stomp them!
http://www.unrv.com/culture/roman-road-construction.php
http://www.jstor.org/stable/1357840?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
that's actually a holdover of thinking from 19th century Western historians obsessed with attaching Grecco-Roman primacy to things, we can see that some long stretches of highway attributed to Roman engineering in both the UK and in the Middle East are actually pre-Roman, and there are plenty of pre-Roman roads of just as grand scope and length in Emperor Ashoka's India (and in China around that time as well), so "us" (if by us we mean humans) got roads from all over the place, and even English-speaking Europeans have as much a debt to pre-Roman Celts as they do to Romans. What that article above doesn't go into is that some Roman engineering has since been shown to have been over top of pre-existing indigenous engineering projects, reinforcing the older work.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bookseries/B00YTHQ52M/
Was to say, "Carthage must be destroyed."
Where this city was strewn is
In modern-day Tunis —
Yes, Cato's advice was deployed.
So really, what have the Romans done for us that the Carthaginians didn't do first might be the more pertinent question! Although personally I think we can give most humans who made roads and highways credit for thinking up the idea themselves, given the multi-continental character of their emergence independent of contact with other road-building peoples, rather than the hokey outdated idea of "enlightened civs civilizing the barbarian civs" but that's another topic.
Edit: YOU MUST DIE, WHILE YOU STILL CAN. THE CIRCLE MUST COME TO A CLOSE MY LOVE.
TV show: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Jones'_Barbarians
One of the most interresting things he presents in the book is the theory that the roman empire might just as well have been a massive regressive force of the evolution in technology/architecture/etc rather then the opposite (which we usually believe) since it created so little new itself in the many hundreds of years it existed and was quite effective at destroying any attemps from non-Romans as well. There's even findings of a greek steam machine from this era which for some reason was never developed any further. Oppression perhaps?
As always, the truth is probably not so black or white, but it's still a very interresting read.
Plus... When it came to personal hygiene... They shared a sponge...
Also. I am sad to inform you, that the Greeks came first in many of these things by the order of a good 500 years.
Irrigation can go as far back to the 7th millennium and even further with egyptians and mesopotamians, drawing water from the Nile or the Euphrates and Tigris respectively...
...
And... A little bit of my heart will never forgive the romans for killing Archimedes...