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MHN Review of Siege of Dragonspear - Comment Please Trent?

I am a long standing fan of Baldur's Gate. I have taken the time to play through and give a fair opinion rather than parrot others. This is my review -

http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=3357
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Comments

  • KrotosKrotos Member Posts: 156
    Could you elaborate why you believe the game deserves such a horrible rating? @bengoshi and I have raised certain concerns regarding your points in the official reviews thread.
  • KogornKogorn Member Posts: 104
    edited April 2016
    Had initially posted a comment. Decided it wasn't worth getting into these discussions again.
  • PhilhelmPhilhelm Member Posts: 473
    Moradin said:

    Even my cat understands Corwin's reaction is not based on the color of Viconia's skin, rather on the disposition to hate, destruction and torture her fellow drow have. And, perfectly in line with a Lawful Good officer, she expresses her doubt about the choice of the protagonist. My cat is not amused by your lack of knowledge, but he realizes it was far too easy for you to manipulate that line because it fits you.

    Tangential, but it always amuses me when people criticize Keldorn as being a racist for this very reason. I think that part of it is a prejudice against paladins in general (they're so stuffy and judgmental - despite requiring an insanely high charisma and a tendency to have high wisdom), combined with modern sensibilities. Almost to the man, the Drow are evil, and as a Paladin, Keldorn can literally sense the evil in others. Viconia is evil, and Keldorn knows it.

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    Philhelm said:

    Moradin said:

    Even my cat understands Corwin's reaction is not based on the color of Viconia's skin, rather on the disposition to hate, destruction and torture her fellow drow have. And, perfectly in line with a Lawful Good officer, she expresses her doubt about the choice of the protagonist. My cat is not amused by your lack of knowledge, but he realizes it was far too easy for you to manipulate that line because it fits you.

    Tangential, but it always amuses me when people criticize Keldorn as being a racist for this very reason. I think that part of it is a prejudice against paladins in general (they're so stuffy and judgmental - despite requiring an insanely high charisma and a tendency to have high wisdom), combined with modern sensibilities. Almost to the man, the Drow are evil, and as a Paladin, Keldorn can literally sense the evil in others. Viconia is evil, and Keldorn knows it.

    I've never really liked that argument completely though. Keldorn can use his paladiny powers to sense the evil, sure, but can't he also sense the same in Edwin? I'd consider Edwin to be the one he needs to watch more closely - they might both be evil, but Viconia seems like she only desires to survive and be left alone, while Edwin craves power and doesn't seem to care how he goes about getting it. Neither is bothered about harming those who would get in their way, but Edwin will only become more dangerous and destructive as he achieves his goal. It's inconsistent.
    Not to mention Edwin is an evil magic user and Keldorn is Inquisitor.

    But we derail the thread. Probably for the better.
  • ZansoZanso Member Posts: 139
    @feersum_endjinn I agree. Keldorn is a bit racist and prejudiced towards Viconia and the drow. At least in my opinion. However, what does it actually matter? Shouldn't games actually portray any racist characters since it is bad? Alright, then I guess we should just stop playing any games really, because every single game you play includes something bad or illegal. You kill, eat mushrooms (Mario), drive over the speed limits etc. I trust people are smart enough to use critical thinking over what the companions say or do.
  • BillyBroBillyBro Member Posts: 62
    I'm not sure how to justify this 22/25 score for good graphics. God. I like my Bioware rpg's but let's face it, the engine is 18 years old >.>
  • MoradinMoradin Member Posts: 372
    @feersum_endjinn , you bring up a good point, my friend. I think Keldorn feels legitimized in attacking Viconia because she is 1) a drow; 2) evil. Since he can feel she is evil, and he can see she is a drow, it doesn't take that much to conclude, "hey, this girl here stands against everything I believe in; plus, her race is irredeemable evil; conclusion: make the world a favor and kill her". Had she been in the party as a neutral or even good character, probably this would have given Keldorn pause - "hey, maybe not all drow are evil. Let's give this a try".
    As for Edwin and other evil party members he doesn't attack, there's always the plausible explanation of, Edwin (or other NPCs) is from a race that can be redeemed. unlike drow. Is this kind of behavior racist? I guess so, yeah. But then the argument is what @Zanso so well wrote, should we just stop playing games because there are racist characters in it? I don't think so.
  • PhilhelmPhilhelm Member Posts: 473

    I've never really liked that argument completely though. Keldorn can use his paladiny powers to sense the evil, sure, but can't he also sense the same in Edwin? I'd consider Edwin to be the one he needs to watch more closely - they might both be evil, but Viconia seems like she only desires to survive and be left alone, while Edwin craves power and doesn't seem to care how he goes about getting it. Neither is bothered about harming those who would get in their way, but Edwin will only become more dangerous and destructive as he achieves his goal. It's inconsistent. Especially when you consider that the main reason Viconia can't live a peaceful life is because of those who make a snap judgement because she's drow.

    Really, Keldorn wouldn't be willing to travel with either of them if core rules were implemented.

    In D&D, good and evil are more concrete than in real life, and both Edwin and Viconia are evil (obviously). However, Viconia isn't quite the victim she may seem, considering some of the background stories about all of the murders she has committed, and the fact that she is devoted to an evil deity to the extent that the evil deity grants her miraculous powers. Frankly, Edwin is just playing at evil when compared to Viconia; it's like a loan shark vs. a serial killer.

    Regardless, travelling with Viconia be like travelling with a vampire, or any other evil, sentient creature. It's not like the Drow should precisely be viewed as darker skinned elves. Overwhelmingly, the entire race is devoted to evil, so it makes sense that Keldorn would have more hostility to Viconia, even if she is playing the victim card.

  • ZansoZanso Member Posts: 139
    edited April 2016
    @Moradin @Philhelm actually now that I think about it, doesn't Keldorn leave the party and attack you if you decide to attack Drizzt? :smiley: So, maybe he is racist only towards evil/not famous drow :smiley: I actually think the racism brings out a spice and realism in RPGs (sadly it does exist in the real world). This way I can try to influence my companions' actions and opinions, and try to turn them towards a better way of thinking (in my world view) :smiley:
  • MoradinMoradin Member Posts: 372
    Zanso said:

    @Moradin @Philhelm actually now that I think about it, doesn't Keldorn leave the party and attack you if you decide to attack Drizzt? :smiley: So, maybe he is racist only towards evil/not famous drow :smiley: I actually think the racism brings out a spice and realism in RPGs. This way I can try to influence my companions actions and opinions, and try to turn them towards a better way of thinking (in my world view) :smiley:

    I don't remember if he leaves after attacking Drizzt, but it wouldn't surprise me. In the real world racism is based on ignorance and prejudice. In the FR, racism is based on ignorance, prejudice and the use of magic. He can sense Drizzt is not evil, so he probably concludes it is an evil act to attack him. So, in a sense, he is racist and his profession kinda requires him to be, but he is wise enough to realize when his racism is not justified in the eye of the law.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited April 2016
    From OP's review:
    Conservative and neutral writers often satirise the darkly amusing far-left trait of not wanting to socialise with the ‘oppressed’ minority groups they purport to defend.
    AND IN THE VERY FIRST LINE OF YOUR REVIEW, you're already showing incredible political bias and bad logic to boot. This is a journalistic travesty, not a review.
  • illathidillathid Member Posts: 320
    Eh, it's bad review. We should probably just stop giving him the page clicks...
  • abentwookieabentwookie Member Posts: 91
    edited April 2016
    "I totally won't parrot others."

    *parrots others*

    Btw, did you seriously just recommend that they hire someone like Vox Day? :o Tell me you're not serious.
  • KogornKogorn Member Posts: 104
    edited April 2016
    I find it paradoxical that he, on the "About" section of his website, states that he purports to both be an aspiring attorney and seeks to "terrorize the guilty" outside of due process.
  • abentwookieabentwookie Member Posts: 91
    Kogorn said:

    I find it paradoxical that he, on the "About" section of his website, states that he purports to both be an aspiring attorney and seeks to "terrorize the guilty" outside of due process.

    lol I didn't see that. I pretty much left his site when I read the part about having Vox Day be a writer for Beamdog. :open_mouth:
  • PhilhelmPhilhelm Member Posts: 473
    Zanso said:

    @feersum_endjinn I agree. Keldorn is a bit racist and prejudiced towards Viconia and the drow. At least in my opinion. However, what does it actually matter? Shouldn't games actually portray any racist characters since it is bad? Alright, then I guess we should just stop playing any games really, because every single game you play includes something bad or illegal. You kill, eat mushrooms (Mario), drive over the speed limits etc. I trust people are smart enough to use critical thinking over what the companions say or do.

    My issue with referring to Keldorn as a racist is that the word has a lot of baggage associated with it, and I think that it is misapplied in this context. Without any further knowledge, if one were to say, "Keldorn is a racist," people would make a lot of untrue assumptions about the character. The problem is that within the context of the setting, The Racist is Right (I don't think this trope exists, but it could be somewhat related to Van Helsing Hate Crimes).

    Also, consider the Ranger class, which has a racial enemy that can include sentient races. The modern use of the word "racist" doesn't seem appropriate to me in either case.

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  • ZansoZanso Member Posts: 139
    edited April 2016

    I think they should hire a new writer: George R. R. Martin. It's a genius idea, really, that way we could have killer dialogs for a new Baldur's Gate game, in 2030!

    Yeah killer dialogue, but almost everyone would die even before you get close to the end, yourself included :p literally killer dialogue :D
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  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    @Philhelm, I would argue that most of what you just said applies to use of the word "racist" in the real world as well. Racism is rarely overt hate, and someone who holds racist beliefs isn't necessarily evil (although it's certainly a character flaw). Racism is just the act of supporting structures that benefit one racial group at the expense of another. It doesn't make you Hitler, except in very large doses, and that fact that we seem to think it does prevents us from having productive discussions on the subject.

    So is Keldorn racist? I'd say yes. He's perpetuating the fear and animosity that prevents drow from learning about less evil cultures than their own. He makes no effort to ask why Viconia is evil, or whether she can learn to be otherwise, in spite of the fact that he clearly demonstrates a willingness to explore and understand the reasons for immoral behavior in humans. She's a drow, and so while he consciously understands that not all drow are evil (see Drizzt), he just doesn't think about redemption as something drow do. This, in spite of the fact that there are enough good drow that the goddess of good drow is the second most powerful deity in their pantheon. That sounds like racism to me. It doesn't make Keldorn evil, and it doesn't mean he'll never accept a drow as being good, but it does mean he's less than the impartial inquisitor he's called to be.
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    Vordrak said:

    I am a long standing fan of Baldur's Gate.

    For a long standing fan, you are very innacurate when referencing the old games.

    The rest of the review is also not really worth it.
  • NightRevanNightRevan Member Posts: 81

    Kogorn said:

    I find it paradoxical that he, on the "About" section of his website, states that he purports to both be an aspiring attorney and seeks to "terrorize the guilty" outside of due process.

    lol I didn't see that. I pretty much left his site when I read the part about having Vox Day be a writer for Beamdog. :open_mouth:
    Who is Vox Day (it reminds me of critical role's name for their party of adventurers, something I've fallen way behind in watching)?
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