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My biggest problem with this is that it hurts the BG2 experience

TrudeauIsSantaTrudeauIsSanta Member Posts: 161
in Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear
For example, I had Viconia in my party in SoD, and her entire character there is so out of sync with who she is in BG2. Especially the way her relationship ends with CHARNAME in SoD... then you meet her in BG2 and she never behaves as her SoD character through the entire game.

SoD really should've been a standalone game that took place in the BG universe, but nothing to do with the plight of the Bhaalspawn or any of the already known party members.
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  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    TrudeauIsSanta said:

    For example, I had Viconia in my party in SoD, and her entire character there is so out of sync with who she is in BG2. Especially the way her relationship ends with CHARNAME in SoD... then you meet her in BG2 and she never behaves as her SoD character through the entire game.

    SoD really should've been a standalone game that took place in the BG universe, but nothing to do with the plight of the Bhaalspawn or any of the already known party members.

    I agree that it's awkward, but it was awkward before SoD came out – Viconia completely forgets you even though you travelled the Sword Coast and defeated Sarevok together. That said, there are some other events in SoD that certain characters in BGII - particularly Irenicus - really should make reference to for consistency. I doubt the devs will leave it unaddressed.
  • TrudeauIsSantaTrudeauIsSanta Member Posts: 161
    edited April 2016
    IIRC Beamdog can't adjust base BG2 story and characters, so things like adjustments to Viconia or Irenicus to make reference to SoD events or character events/growth/relationships are out the window.

    Also maybe this is new but I just ran into Viconia in BG2 the other day (the stake scene) and she asks me if I remember *her* from BG1, so the reference is definitely already there. It's that everything after that makes no sense based on how she was to my CHARNAME in SoD.

    Also, doesn't having a higher XP character carry over from SoD to BG2 ruin the game balance of BG2? Especially since BG2 has the ToB XP cap from the beginning, so the game balance won't fully restore until late into ToB when CHARNAME finally hits XP cap.

    Overall SoD just kind of messes with things, unless BG2 gets an overhaul. If it were a standalone game with an entirely different party it'd be fine, but it being wedged in as part of the "Saga" is a headache.
  • illathidillathid Member Posts: 320
    TrudeauIsSanta said:

    IIRC Beamdog can't adjust base BG2 story and characters, so things like adjustments to Viconia or Irenicus to make reference to SoD events or character events/growth/relationships are out the window.

    Also maybe this is new but I just ran into Viconia in BG2 the other day (the stake scene) and she asks me if I remember *her* from BG1, so the reference is definitely already there. It's that everything after that makes no sense based on how she was to my CHARNAME in SoD.

    Also, doesn't having a higher XP character carry over from SoD to BG2 ruin the game balance of BG2? Especially since BG2 has the ToB XP cap from the beginning, so the game balance won't fully restore until late into ToB when CHARNAME finally hits XP cap.

    Overall SoD just kind of messes with things, unless BG2 gets an overhaul. If it were a standalone game with an entirely different party it'd be fine, but it being wedged in as part of the "Saga" is a headache.

    Beamdog not touching existing content is how it used to be, It's not clear if that's still the case. As for XP, most of the the early BG2 quests actually have some level scaling. Plus the difference in at most two levels isn't that big.

    I had the same issue with viconia when playing vanilla bg2 in 2000. The game just doesn't track world states from bg1.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    edited April 2016
    I think things might have changed a *little* bit with licensing after SoD - WoTC might not allow major tinkering, but they might be OK with a few lines that address what happened considering that they allowed Beamdog to write new content for the classic characters. Even better, they could make these contingent on whether or not you played SoD, so people who feel that it wasn't a good fit for the series can skip it and not see any changes in BGII.

    Anyway, that's what I hope is the case, because you're not the only person who has (rightfully) brought this up.
    Post edited by Purudaya on
  • TrudeauIsSantaTrudeauIsSanta Member Posts: 161
    edited April 2016
    illathid said:

    I had the same issue with viconia when playing vanilla bg2 in 2000. The game just doesn't track world states from bg1.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    It isn't so much not tracking worldstates as it is feeling like the character gets a complete reset on booting up BG2. The explanation for this obvious, but it's like they flesh out the characters in their own style in SoD, only to have it be at odds with what had already been written for the characters in BG2 by the last writers, instead of writing the SoD characters to progress to a point where they'd properly flow into who they become when you meet them in BG2. But it doesn't. Like everyone in BG2 has a mental illness now. They're a way in BG1, then they get development in SoD, then BG2 begins and they're all different again. Might as well just create your own party and ignore everything from BG1 to end of ToB now, less of a headache that way.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I don't think I feel as strongly as the OP about this, but I do basically agree. I like SOD a lot, but I feel like it creates certain threads that aren't present in BG2, and don't necessarily seem to fit quite right. For example, my character is now a great hero, acknowledged by her city and now fallen from grace. And in BG2, there's no acknowledging this. No angst, no attempt at redemption, no reference to past glories or past shames. Not even the option to yell at Irenicus for the honor he took from her. Just... nothing. And honestly, when I start up BG2 with that character, it's gonna be a bit weird. Not impossibly, irredeemably so, but a bit weird nonetheless.
  • TrudeauIsSantaTrudeauIsSanta Member Posts: 161
    This is the kind of crap that starts the rabbit holes of endless sequels and spinoffs and developer statements to address an issue that wouldn't have happened had they paid better attention to the source material.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited April 2016
    TrudeauIsSanta said:

    This is the kind of crap that starts the rabbit holes of endless sequels and spinoffs and developer statements to address an issue that wouldn't have happened had they paid better attention to the source material.

    The source material was going to cause issues to begin with.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    rapsam2003 said:

    TrudeauIsSanta said:

    This is the kind of crap that starts the rabbit holes of endless sequels and spinoffs and developer statements to address an issue that wouldn't have happened had they paid better attention to the source material.

    The source material was going to cause issues to begin with.
    Not really. If they had left out the NPCs that show up in Bg2 there wouldn't have been any issues. Jaheira, Minsc, Dynaheir and Khalid could have shown up at the very end to go with you on some quest and then get ambushed by Irenicus. And left Viconia out of it completely. Problem solved.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Rawgrim said:

    rapsam2003 said:

    TrudeauIsSanta said:

    This is the kind of crap that starts the rabbit holes of endless sequels and spinoffs and developer statements to address an issue that wouldn't have happened had they paid better attention to the source material.

    The source material was going to cause issues to begin with.
    Not really. If they had left out the NPCs that show up in Bg2 there wouldn't have been any issues. Jaheira, Minsc, Dynaheir and Khalid could have shown up at the very end to go with you on some quest and then get ambushed by Irenicus. And left Viconia out of it completely. Problem solved.
    Even if Viconia was left out, it still was going to happen that there would be a disconnect. Because you spent all this time in BG1 (possibly) befriending Viconia, only to have her HOPE that you remembered her in BG2.

    BG2 implies strongly that there were several months between the events of BG1 and the events of BG2. Even if you have more than a casual friendship with Viconia, considering that she's a Drow, it's not beyond reason to think that she would grasp onto you in BG2 as her last hope (and she would automatically discount any previous interactions stronger than casual friendship). Why? Because she's a Drow. Drow are mistreated and maligned and teased and generally don't have long lasting relationship (friendly or otherwise) with folks who are not Drow.
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    edited April 2016
    Keeping in mind that most characters completely forget what happened in BGI except for the default party, *including Charname* if the player so chooses. No matter what they did with the source material, any notable event would have run into the same problem that already existed in 2000. It's potentially made worse by the inclusion of Viconia's romance, but it's not a totally new problem - if Beamdog was willing to add references to BG1 romances for the new NPCs in BGII, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't want to do the same for Viconia if they could get the permission to do so.

    If you disliked the romance itself and feel that it shouldn't have been included in SoD, you can always use the global command in the console to kill it at the beginning of your SoD playthrough. It's not the most artful solution, but it would eliminate some of the inconsistencies you're concerned about.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    rapsam2003 said:

    Rawgrim said:

    rapsam2003 said:

    TrudeauIsSanta said:

    This is the kind of crap that starts the rabbit holes of endless sequels and spinoffs and developer statements to address an issue that wouldn't have happened had they paid better attention to the source material.

    The source material was going to cause issues to begin with.
    Not really. If they had left out the NPCs that show up in Bg2 there wouldn't have been any issues. Jaheira, Minsc, Dynaheir and Khalid could have shown up at the very end to go with you on some quest and then get ambushed by Irenicus. And left Viconia out of it completely. Problem solved.
    Even if Viconia was left out, it still was going to happen that there would be a disconnect. Because you spent all this time in BG1 (possibly) befriending Viconia, only to have her HOPE that you remembered her in BG2.

    BG2 implies strongly that there were several months between the events of BG1 and the events of BG2. Even if you have more than a casual friendship with Viconia, considering that she's a Drow, it's not beyond reason to think that she would grasp onto you in BG2 as her last hope (and she would automatically discount any previous interactions stronger than casual friendship). Why? Because she's a Drow. Drow are mistreated and maligned and teased and generally don't have long lasting relationship (friendly or otherwise) with folks who are not Drow.
    Yeah but given that the friendship grows a lot deeper and a romance starts in SoD, which is just weeks before Bg2, her replies to you in BG2 seems off.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    It has only enhanced my BG2 experience so far. Starting off a bit higher, a bit more backstory filled in, playing on a higher level difficulty is more fun with the better enemy AI....nope, pretty much better all around for me.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Rawgrim said:

    Yeah but given that the friendship grows a lot deeper and a romance starts in SoD, which is just weeks before Bg2, her replies to you in BG2 seems off.

    As I said in the other thread, we STILL have months, even with SoD ending and BG2's prologue in there. Unless and until the devs state the timeline is otherwise, BG2 IMPLIES there's months between BG1's epilogue and BG2's prologue. SoD didn't change that, because there is no proof that it actually did.

  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    rapsam2003 said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Yeah but given that the friendship grows a lot deeper and a romance starts in SoD, which is just weeks before Bg2, her replies to you in BG2 seems off.

    As I said in the other thread, we STILL have months, even with SoD ending and BG2's prologue in there. Unless and until the devs state the timeline is otherwise, BG2 IMPLIES there's months between BG1's epilogue and BG2's prologue. SoD didn't change that, because there is no proof that it actually did.

    You have from spring to late fall. + it takes Viconia a month to get from Dragonspear to Amn. Add her time living with the farmers into that mix and you are completely out of months.

    Lets say Bg1 starts off in early march. The game takes 3 months to completeion. We are now at early June. SoD happens.That takes, what? A month? Juli now. PC and the others gets kidnapped. Viconia travels south to the farm. Stays there for? a month? If she was living with someone it had to be at least that. Also takes a month to get from Dragonspear to Amn. September when the PC awakens in the dungeon, and Viconia arrives in Amn. That gives you September, October and I dunno. Half of November to complete the story of Bg2 and ToB. Given the distances you travel in Bg2 alone, sailing for weeks to Spellhold and actually walking back, it is not doable. Not by a long shot.

    Timeline is messed up. Defending it won't change it.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited April 2016
    Rawgrim said:

    Lets say Bg1 starts off in early march. The game takes 3 months to completeion.

    Let's stop here. Where is the proof that the canon version of BG1 takes 3 months from epilogue to prologue? If we apply a real world view of time to the game, it actually is more likely to take a week or two, in all reality. This explains why, for instance, the Dukes never had time to actually organize a force to oppose Big S in BG1.

  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    rapsam2003 said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Lets say Bg1 starts off in early march. The game takes 3 months to completeion.

    Let's stop here. Where is the proof that the canon version of BG1 takes 3 months from epilogue to prologue? If we apply a real world view of time to the game, it actually is more likely to take a week or two, in all reality. This explains why, for instance, the Dukes never had time to actually organize a force to oppose Big S in BG1.

    Look at the forgotten realms map. Look at the distances. All that is very firmly planted in the lore. Look up the Forgotten Realms campaign setting book. You might want to look at the times added to the game itself too. The game actually tells you how many hours it takes to travel from Candlekeep to Nashkel etc. + you do need to rest for 8 hours now and again too.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited April 2016
    Rawgrim said:

    Look at the forgotten realms map. Look at the distances. All that is very firmly planted in the lore.

    The distance traveled are very small, in actuality (all within a 100 miles region). And, yes, I DID consult the Forgotten Realms map for that statement. If we consider how long it took soldiers and others used to traveling to get places, assuming that the party can travel 15 miles in a day is NOT uncommon. It is entirely possible to walk/hike 15 miles in 8 hours.

  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    rapsam2003 said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Look at the forgotten realms map. Look at the distances. All that is very firmly planted in the lore.

    The distance traveled are very small, in actuality (all within a 100 miles region). And, yes, I DID consult the Forgotten Realms map for that statement. If we consider how long it took soldiers and others used to traveling to get places, assuming that the party can travel 15 miles in a day is NOT uncommon. It is entirely possible to walk/hike 15 miles in 8 hours.

    Yes it is possible. But they can't keep that pace up for a whole year. Or even a month. And you only have from spring to fall to get from the start of BG1 to the end of ToB. Viconia needs to live on a farm for a reasonable lengthy period. And she also needs to get from Dragonspear to Amn.

    Soldiers go from A to B. In as straight a line as possible. The player and the companions go back and forth and all over the place. Lots of back and forth in the game, after all. You run out of weeks and months quickly.
  • TrudeauIsSantaTrudeauIsSanta Member Posts: 161
    Well I'm back and have my gaming time now, so I just let Viconia burn at the stake. Better to do that than have her in my party and giving me a headache over all the problems Beamdog has created for her. GG
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Rawgrim said:

    The player and the companions go back and forth and all over the place. Lots of back and forth in the game, after all. You run out of weeks and months quickly.

    In terms of the "canon" story, you don't go as back and forth as the actual player does. In other words, there's a lot of things that the player does that don't actually make sense for CHARNAME to do, from a pure story perspective. (CHARNAME is never going to head back to town for the sole purpose of selling loot, when there is a literal crisis that CHARNAME is solving at the moment. Instead, pile the loot up for later and head back to town when CHARNAME is "victorious" in that area.)
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    You still have to go back and forth due to the side quests etc. Some of the side quests are adressed in Bg2, after all. So we have to assume the PC did all of it.
  • TrudeauIsSantaTrudeauIsSanta Member Posts: 161
    It's because it made it worse.
    PK2748 said:

    we live in an imperfect world.

    This works on anything. So you're right. No point criticizing. Everything's broken. Don't bother.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    Dude, it is a video game. :D How close do you sit to your monitor to get "immersed"?
  • TrudeauIsSantaTrudeauIsSanta Member Posts: 161
    mf2112 said:

    Dude, it is a video game. :D How close do you sit to your monitor to get "immersed"?

    So we're onto that argument now. Why should they bother writing any story or dialogue at all, then? Just put us in a world with an arrow indicating which direction the bad guys are in.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    mf2112 said:

    Dude, it is a video game. :D How close do you sit to your monitor to get "immersed"?

    It is a roleplaying game. Immersion is vital. Hence the deep lore, well written characters, and the great story.
  • TrudeauIsSantaTrudeauIsSanta Member Posts: 161
    edited April 2016
    Rawgrim said:

    well written characters, and the great story.

    Except it has none of that because of all the botch jobs you notice when going from game to game. Forget it.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited April 2016
    TrudeauIsSanta said:

    Rawgrim said:

    well written characters, and the great story.

    Except it has none of that because of all the botch jobs from ensuring consistency from game to game. Forget it.
    Huh, we got both of those. The story in SoD was at least as well done as ToB or ToSC. Problem is, folks (including you, I'd guess) expected a story on par with BG1 or BG2. In other words, floks expected story and characters that were on par with the 60+ hour main game, when your expectations should have been to expect things based on a 15+ hour expansion. For what SoD is, we got a good story and good characters. So, hush.
  • Wraith_SarevokWraith_Sarevok Member Posts: 130
    edited April 2016
    It's called "bad writing" a.k.a. "fan fiction."

    It begins when you start up a relatively new indie company with no credentials and go to great lengths to acquire the rights to a classic D&D videogame in some sort of pathetic and desperate attempt to recapture the "glory days."

    Then you hire ex-members from Stephenie Meyer's Twilight fan club to write an expansion to said game 15 years after the fact. And voilà! You produce a beautiful, beautiful butterfly of absolute horribleness.
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