Yeah and then some were left out making it look even worse.
I say none or close-to-none should make it to Amn on their own. Only the ones that you bring along.
There are more than enough new characters in BG2, both playable and nonplayable
Also, importantly - BG2 characters oftentimes are stronger than BG ones. That will make you want to swap an old one for a new one and add some freshness to the game if you care for that.
They're adventurers. They're adventuring. They feel they've adventured enough in Faerun and want to move south to Amn. Sounds logical to me. City of coin, why wouldn't that call adventurers to it? Also, you propose only a couple get captured and the rest scatter. Why would a party of adventurers who stopped the iron crisis, destroyed the iron throne, toppled a god child, run from an ambush when their leader is captured? Doesn't sound very heroic to me.
they're not all adventuring on their own, and roaming around looking for cash why would all the bg1 npc's end up in amn *at the same time*? it's ridiculous
they just recycled those characters because it was easy and cheap
We've gone rather far afield of the topic, here. @bob_veng, if you want to talk about BG1 NPCs being in BG2, there are a few threads about that in this forum.
I never did understand the urge to have full control over the transition of the npcs. The game focus is on the Child of bhaal, and the fact that you Can import him/her as he/she was in bg makes it more than sufficient in my book. One should look at the two games as follow-ups not contineous. Imho.
You are the Child of bhaal - not the party you choose as Company.
@Roller12, it's a defect on the history, the game was made 14 years ago anyway, pretty good for his launch time.
They should have made Imoen alignment mach the PC alignment (and even have specific banters for each alignment kind of Imoen). But that's just an reinforce of how BG was made for good parties in the past.
they're not all adventuring on their own, and roaming around looking for cash why would all the bg1 npc's end up in amn *at the same time*? it's ridiculous
they just recycled those characters because it was easy and cheap
A couple people who you had met previously turning up in the largest trading hub on the Sword Coast is ridiculous? Minsc and Jaheira were captured with you because they were adventuring with you, Edwin was already in Amn (in Nashkel), Ajantis' Paladin order is based in Athkatla, Viconia constantly has to keep on the move to avoid being discovered and Tiax doesn't answer to the likes of you . It wasn't a case of the devs being lazy and cheap, it just made sense and was a nice callback to the first game.
Two people (one of whom was previously operating in Amn - Edwin was in Nashkel) who you had met previously turning up in the largest trading hub on the Sword Coast is ridiculous? Only Edwin and Viconia "somehow made their way to Amn", Minsc and Jaheira were captured with you because they were adventuring with you.
What about Quayle? Apparently, he's been working at the circus for quite some time and had time enough to adopt and care for Aerie.
Tiax must have been in Athkatla at some point because it's his spellcasting that lands him in Spellhold. Xzar is in Athkatla trying to do something about Montaron's predicament.
Those are the four I can think of off the top of my head (apart from Edwin, of course).
I edited my comment while you were typing I think, but I had forgotten about Quayle. He has an entirely different personality, never acknowledges you've met and seems to have been working for the circus and known Aerie for years so I figured that Quayle is just a common gnome name.
Xzar and Montaron are heading south to Nashkel when CHARNAME meets them, and when the iron crisis ends there is little reason for the Zhentarim to keep agents in rural northern Amn. However, there does seem to be something interesting happening further south, the local Harpers in Athkatla are acting strangely and have moved into a garish new HQ. I'd guess their new mission was simply to keep tabs on that. They were close by, after all.
Quayle appearance as Aerie's mentor is totally uncoherent. Tiax could have simply gone to Amn after the party was kidnaped, but he's a cleric/thief, so there's something very strange for him to be taken by the Cowled Wizards.
Xzar and monty are somehow well explained for me.
Minsc, Jaheira, Edwin and Viconia are joinable BG characters in BG II. Khalid and Dynaheir are in BG II but they're dead, therefore non joinable.
There's also Ajantis, that you kill in the Windspear Hills in reason of Firkgaark trick. Garrick that flirt with one of the female paladins at the door of the Radiant Heart. Coran and Safana are in the AR of the entrance of the elven city. Faldorn is the Shadow Druid leader, responsible for the problems in Trademeet.
So the BG joinable NPC list that doesn't appear in BG2 is:
In my view, i believe that the game should start from the principle that every NPC somehow, even for a short time, was inside the main char party. Even if that's not accurate, Amn is just a frontier city of Baldur's Gate. And by end, i believe that of course the game should make all the BG NPCs to appear in BG II, probally there's a lot of parties looking for the iron shortage problems in BG time, but the game circles the main char adventure and plot, so not everything is covered, probally there would be tons of avaliable NPCs to join the party from a P&P point of view, but by engine limits, only those with crucial elements are displayed as joinable NPCs.
I truly miss Shar-Teel, Eldoth/Skie and even Safana (would make an awersome romance) in BG II. Eldoth/Skie could even be an optional canon NPC (and i think eldoth should die and Skie stay alive).
Alora, Quayle and Tiax are NPCs only accessible in chapter 6, what make their company a bit short, if we could bring them to BG II as joinable people would have more reason to stick with them in BG. Quayle and Tiax unfortunally are original content set already (one is Aerie's Mentor i don't know how, and the other is trapped in SpellHold) but Alora is passible of salvation yet.
@kazmuizin I do wish they'd bring Kagain and Sharteel back as NPC's in BG2EE, they're a lot of fun and don't really need huge quests implemented or anything. Plus if you wanted a dwarf centric party you could have a few with Korgan....I like the Elodoth / Skie idea, but there's also the new NPC's....
@Roller12 Yeah you can hypothesize that but that doesn't help with the tactical elements of why this information is needed. This thread isn't so much about stat boosts for the NPC's, it's about how the game will record a players use of Tomes on NPC's or his / or her own PC, and how that will work WITH stat boosts that happen either way for the NPC's.
Also I'm quoting myself to get this thread back on topic. I would love to see a straight answer, has this been thought about? If so...will they carry over with other stat boosts? Etc. I much prefer to see Tomes as tactical, rather than arbitrary boosts for the PC only.
@Roller12 Yeah you can hypothesize that but that doesn't help with the tactical elements of why this information is needed. This thread isn't so much about stat boosts for the NPC's, it's about how the game will record a players use of Tomes on NPC's or his / or her own PC, and how that will work WITH stat boosts that happen either way for the NPC's.
Also I'm quoting myself to get this thread back on topic. I would love to see a straight answer, has this been thought about? If so...will they carry over with other stat boosts? Etc. I much prefer to see Tomes as tactical, rather than arbitrary boosts for the PC only.
Doubt it. Don't plan on it. Have an index card ready to copy down who you give stat bonuses to so you can CLUAConsole in tomes during BG2.
The answer may be the following - adding a merchant into BG who is also available in BG2 will help this a lot - in BG you can sell him unused (for your main hero) tomes, in BG you can buy these tomes and use them for NPCs of BG2. I would greatly appreciate this option.
It's more that the characters are different files in the different games. Jaheira in BG2 is a totally different character from a data perspective, which is why her ability scores are higher and she can cast Harper's Call.
So something will have to be done, if the tomes are going to be accounted for. It's just a matter of what.
@Aosaw@Kamuizin maybe they don't have to be different characters since it's again, the BG2 engine, maybe instead they just GAIN stats when the game starts off of your file!!!
I stand by my earlier proposal, to create a variable in BG1 that marks the NPC's counterpart in BG2 and increases that NPC's stat by one (or more, depending on the number of tomes used for that stat).
Although it creates a kind of an absurd power scale, especially for characters like Jaheira and Viconia who get some massive ups between the first and second game (and thus end up being uberwenches, so to speak). But as was pointed out by someone else, it's really no different than giving all the tomes to your ubermench CharName.
@bengoshi From what I can tell their stats don't buff till BG2...which is fine...but if you buff them with Tomes in the old game and import they don't receive any buffs in the original. (and if you don't buff them, and import them they stay nerfed in BG2 with BG1 stats) Hence the whole thread. =/ I think it's fair to be tactical about your party with the tomes, and get the stat buffs.
@Debaser Sorry, I don't understand you. Not only "their stats don't buff till BG2" doesn't help - can I find out from this phrase if Jaheira and Viconia have original stats from BG1 in BG:EE ? - but also your mentioning any "import" of NPCs is in question.
@Aosaw What if we give the tome of strength to Dorn, for example? Will he carry the improvement into BG2EE? If not, it's unfair. Even taking into account the increase in stats of Jaheira and Viconia (if it takes place indeed). If it's impossible for the Devs to tranfer NPCs into BG2EE with improved stats from the tomes (which I cannot understand - in BGT it's possible), they can always add the merchant I talked about - in this case we can give the tome of strength to Dorn during BG2EE and everyone will be happy.
I never did understand the urge to have full control over the transition of the npcs. The game focus is on the Child of bhaal, and the fact that you Can import him/her as he/she was in bg makes it more than sufficient in my book. One should look at the two games as follow-ups not contineous. Imho.
You are the Child of bhaal - not the party you choose as Company.
Well, In my opinion, the transition makes or breaks baldurs gate 2. Especially for the BG1 crowd.
When I played BG2 for the first time I had NO motivation to try to find Irenicus or that little side character that I didn't use in the first game anyway. In fact I was annoyed for most of the game and when I finally got Imoen back I told her I had no room in party and I would make do without such a useless character.
However, years later after playing BG trilogy I started the game keeping Imoen all through BG1 and continued the game in BG 2, with the imoen character a lvl9 or so thief unchanged, I got SO pissed off that they took imoen, my thief that I had kept throughout the game, and I was not going to rest until I got her back.
Without continuity, there is no commitment and therefore no reason to seek out Irenicus or get imoen back.
@Debaser Sorry, I don't understand you. Not only "their stats don't buff till BG2" doesn't help - can I find out from this phrase if Jaheira and Viconia have original stats from BG1 in BG:EE ? - but also your mentioning any "import" of NPCs is in question.
@Aosaw What if we give the tome of strength to Dorn, for example? Will he carry the improvement into BG2EE? If not, it's unfair. Even taking into account the increase in stats of Jaheira and Viconia (if it takes place indeed). If it's impossible for the Devs to tranfer NPCs into BG2EE with improved stats from the tomes (which I cannot understand - in BGT it's possible), they can always add the merchant I talked about - in this case we can give the tome of strength to Dorn during BG2EE and everyone will be happy.
Strength - 15 Dexterity - 17 (She gained +3Dex if you start a new game in BG2 without importing from BG1) Constitution - 17 Intelligence - 10 Wisdom - 14 Charisma - 15
Now if I give her a tome in BG1 and import my Character after beating Sarevok she will never gain the +3 to Dex that she gets in a new BG2 game. She will however keep her stats as was boosted by the tome.
I'm saying it would be nice for her, and other characters who carry over, all of whom get stat boosts to be upgradable in BG1, while receiving whatever bonus they get in a fresh game.
Do you understand now?
I want the tomes to be strategic, not just something you put on the PC every time because you know the natural bonus of a fresh start is better.
You can still export a character NEAR the end of the game as many do to get the bonuses of a new BG2 game, but then the tomes don't carry over unless they were on your PC...it's still...not...quite...right.
If the scripting is the same between BG2 and BG2:EE, we can make any tomes your character is carrying on import appear in Irenicus' dungeon. That means you won't be able to use them in BG1 though...
@RomulanPaladin I have actually played games like that in order to have them....then I got SK and just would adjust. I'm fine with adjusting it if that's all we're left with, but it seems to me that while coding BG2 this could be fixed, so they either start stock with boosts, or they import and then GET the same boosts in scripting.
@RomulanPaladin I have actually played games like that in order to have them....then I got SK and just would adjust. I'm fine with adjusting it if that's all we're left with, but it seems to me that while coding BG2 this could be fixed, so they either start stock with boosts, or they import and then GET the same boosts in scripting.
Point taken!
Consideration: The real trick to this would be not to change BG2 but to change how BG1 saves character files and how BG2 reads them. Not that it would necessarily be a huge task (though it could be). The thing is that one has to consider if changing the way character files work is worth tracking a NPC stat change.
HOWEVER, if there were a number of things that called for continuity between games and changing character files, I wouldn't see too much reason why porting a stat change couldn't be included (aside from possibly being very low priority).
I just occurred to me: the BG2 engine likely already has a means of saving character variables / effects since a number of kits use them. If this is the case, then stat bump continuity may be achievable by most modders without doing too much jury rigging. Only time will tell.
Comments
I say none or close-to-none should make it to Amn on their own. Only the ones that you bring along.
There are more than enough new characters in BG2, both playable and nonplayable
Also, importantly - BG2 characters oftentimes are stronger than BG ones. That will make you want to swap an old one for a new one and add some freshness to the game if you care for that.
why would all the bg1 npc's end up in amn *at the same time*?
it's ridiculous
they just recycled those characters because it was easy and cheap
esp since the OP was most adequatly replied with:
You are the Child of bhaal - not the party you choose as Company.
1. Your game isn't canon.
2. You are not allowed to leave the cage
They should have made Imoen alignment mach the PC alignment (and even have specific banters for each alignment kind of Imoen). But that's just an reinforce of how BG was made for good parties in the past.
What about Quayle? Apparently, he's been working at the circus for quite some time and had time enough to adopt and care for Aerie.
Tiax must have been in Athkatla at some point because it's his spellcasting that lands him in Spellhold. Xzar is in Athkatla trying to do something about Montaron's predicament.
Those are the four I can think of off the top of my head (apart from Edwin, of course).
Xzar and Montaron are heading south to Nashkel when CHARNAME meets them, and when the iron crisis ends there is little reason for the Zhentarim to keep agents in rural northern Amn. However, there does seem to be something interesting happening further south, the local Harpers in Athkatla are acting strangely and have moved into a garish new HQ. I'd guess their new mission was simply to keep tabs on that. They were close by, after all.
Xzar and monty are somehow well explained for me.
Minsc, Jaheira, Edwin and Viconia are joinable BG characters in BG II.
Khalid and Dynaheir are in BG II but they're dead, therefore non joinable.
There's also Ajantis, that you kill in the Windspear Hills in reason of Firkgaark trick.
Garrick that flirt with one of the female paladins at the door of the Radiant Heart.
Coran and Safana are in the AR of the entrance of the elven city.
Faldorn is the Shadow Druid leader, responsible for the problems in Trademeet.
So the BG joinable NPC list that doesn't appear in BG2 is:
-Yeslick
-Alora
-Kivan
-Xan
-Branwen
-Skie
-Safana
-Kagain
-Eldoth
-Shar-Teel
In my view, i believe that the game should start from the principle that every NPC somehow, even for a short time, was inside the main char party. Even if that's not accurate, Amn is just a frontier city of Baldur's Gate. And by end, i believe that of course the game should make all the BG NPCs to appear in BG II, probally there's a lot of parties looking for the iron shortage problems in BG time, but the game circles the main char adventure and plot, so not everything is covered, probally there would be tons of avaliable NPCs to join the party from a P&P point of view, but by engine limits, only those with crucial elements are displayed as joinable NPCs.
I truly miss Shar-Teel, Eldoth/Skie and even Safana (would make an awersome romance) in BG II.
Eldoth/Skie could even be an optional canon NPC (and i think eldoth should die and Skie stay alive).
Alora, Quayle and Tiax are NPCs only accessible in chapter 6, what make their company a bit short, if we could bring them to BG II as joinable people would have more reason to stick with them in BG. Quayle and Tiax unfortunally are original content set already (one is Aerie's Mentor i don't know how, and the other is trapped in SpellHold) but Alora is passible of salvation yet.
So something will have to be done, if the tomes are going to be accounted for. It's just a matter of what.
I stand by my earlier proposal, to create a variable in BG1 that marks the NPC's counterpart in BG2 and increases that NPC's stat by one (or more, depending on the number of tomes used for that stat).
Although it creates a kind of an absurd power scale, especially for characters like Jaheira and Viconia who get some massive ups between the first and second game (and thus end up being uberwenches, so to speak). But as was pointed out by someone else, it's really no different than giving all the tomes to your ubermench CharName.
Sorry, I don't understand you. Not only "their stats don't buff till BG2" doesn't help - can I find out from this phrase if Jaheira and Viconia have original stats from BG1 in BG:EE ? - but also your mentioning any "import" of NPCs is in question.
@Aosaw
What if we give the tome of strength to Dorn, for example? Will he carry the improvement into BG2EE? If not, it's unfair. Even taking into account the increase in stats of Jaheira and Viconia (if it takes place indeed).
If it's impossible for the Devs to tranfer NPCs into BG2EE with improved stats from the tomes (which I cannot understand - in BGT it's possible), they can always add the merchant I talked about - in this case we can give the tome of strength to Dorn during BG2EE and everyone will be happy.
When I played BG2 for the first time I had NO motivation to try to find Irenicus or that little side character that I didn't use in the first game anyway. In fact I was annoyed for most of the game and when I finally got Imoen back I told her I had no room in party and I would make do without such a useless character.
However, years later after playing BG trilogy I started the game keeping Imoen all through BG1 and continued the game in BG 2, with the imoen character a lvl9 or so thief unchanged, I got SO pissed off that they took imoen, my thief that I had kept throughout the game, and I was not going to rest until I got her back.
Without continuity, there is no commitment and therefore no reason to seek out Irenicus or get imoen back.
@Bengoshi I'll try to explain with an example -
IN BG1 JAHERIA'S STATES ARE:
Strength - 15
Dexterity - 14
Constitution - 17
Intelligence - 10
Wisdom - 14
Charisma - 15
IN BG2 SHE GETS A BOOST:
Strength - 15
Dexterity - 17 (She gained +3Dex if you start a new game in BG2 without importing from BG1)
Constitution - 17
Intelligence - 10
Wisdom - 14
Charisma - 15
Now if I give her a tome in BG1 and import my Character after beating Sarevok she will never gain the +3 to Dex that she gets in a new BG2 game. She will however keep her stats as was boosted by the tome.
I'm saying it would be nice for her, and other characters who carry over, all of whom get stat boosts to be upgradable in BG1, while receiving whatever bonus they get in a fresh game.
Do you understand now?
I want the tomes to be strategic, not just something you put on the PC every time because you know the natural bonus of a fresh start is better.
You can still export a character NEAR the end of the game as many do to get the bonuses of a new BG2 game, but then the tomes don't carry over unless they were on your PC...it's still...not...quite...right.
Get me?
Consideration:
The real trick to this would be not to change BG2 but to change how BG1 saves character files and how BG2 reads them. Not that it would necessarily be a huge task (though it could be). The thing is that one has to consider if changing the way character files work is worth tracking a NPC stat change.
HOWEVER, if there were a number of things that called for continuity between games and changing character files, I wouldn't see too much reason why porting a stat change couldn't be included (aside from possibly being very low priority).
I just occurred to me: the BG2 engine likely already has a means of saving character variables / effects since a number of kits use them. If this is the case, then stat bump continuity may be achievable by most modders without doing too much jury rigging. Only time will tell.