I've read quite a few of the negative reviews. I went through literally the entire steam review list not too long ago. Believe me, I've seen them. And you know what? My argument stands. Because, fine, you want to narrow things down to only ham-handed political statements? Baldur's Gate has plenty of those as well. @Fardragon points out the game is rather heavy-handed on its attitudes towards hunting, and that's not the end of it. You get reputation points for saving a deserter from the law, with no moral nuance suggested. The villains are evil capitalists, and at one point stealing from merchants is described as making you no better than a merchant yourself. Are you going to tell me that isn't political commentary? Are you going to say that's in any way not a way stronger stance than including one trans woman in the game? Are you going to explain why that's somehow more nuanced, less forced-down-your-throat than Mizhena's "my parents mistook me for a man"? No. If the ham-handedness drove the anger, they'd be angry at so much more.
It's political commentary nobody cares about. Very few people engage themselves with the moral dilemmas of hunting, and calling merchants - or in our world, stores and retailers - for, more or less jokingly, thieves is common practice.
Trangederism, on the other hand, is strongly associated with the PC culture, and pushing a character in this shoddy manner is seen as pushing PC culture down our throats. Which is what people have reacted against.
Bottom line is, if Mizhena was a very cleverly written playable character, with a rich and interesting backstory which might have happened to include her being transgendered in a smart/thought-provoking manner, people would have taken a whole lot less issue with the inclusion. It was the deliverance, not the substance, that was the main issue.
Remember when it was cool that people could find themselves reflected in media? Why is that only allowed for some people?
Two things here are not logical arguments:
* "Playing games to disconnect our minds from real-world issues" isn't a thing. It's not at all a thing. If you're playing a CRPG you're going to encounter real-world issues. What you really mean is that you don't want to be exposed to the idea that, for example, transgender people exist. That is, a specific issue you've labeled as "real world." * Inclusion of a transgender character is not forcing politics down anyone's throat. That's a claim that betrays hypersensitivity and a thin skin. You wouldn't complain about exposure to politics you agree with, and you know it. But the inclusion of a transgender character is no more inherently political than the choice to not include any transgender characters. It's just the one that caters to your worldview, so you present it as politically neutral, which is kind of disingenuous.
Remember when it was cool that people could find themselves reflected in media? Why is that only allowed for some people?
Two things here are not logical arguments:
* "Playing games to disconnect our minds from real-world issues" isn't a thing. It's not at all a thing. If you're playing a CRPG you're going to encounter real-world issues. What you really mean is that you don't want to be exposed to the idea that, for example, transgender people exist. That is, a specific issue you've labeled as "real world." * Inclusion of a transgender character is not forcing politics down anyone's throat. That's a claim that betrays hypersensitivity and a thin skin. You wouldn't complain about exposure to politics you agree with, and you know it. But the inclusion of a transgender character is no more inherently political than the choice to not include any transgender characters. It's just the one that caters to your worldview, so you present it as politically neutral, which is kind of disingenuous.
Never said inclusion of a transgendered character was a bad thing. You are kind of putting words into my mouth here.
For the record. This is my personal view on such things. People are people. Transgendered, gay, straight, bisexuals, every race. All of it. People should be allowed to live the way they want, and do what makes them happy. As long as it doesn't harm anyone, of course. Let people live their lives. Let them marry whoever they want. Leave them alone. Don't force opinions or views down their throats. Bigoted or otherwise. Invite everyone to the party and let them enjoy themselves. Equality. That is my personal view on it.
Sometimes, though, the noise of it all gets a bit much. In social media in particular. I think it is nice to have video games and whatnot to escape all that. Disconnect the brain and catch a breather from it.
My comment was actually aimed at the gamergate joke Minsc dishes out. Not Mizhena.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I notice transgendered players are pointing out that, in this case, their "representation" via Mizhena left a lot to be desired, though.
I've read quite a few of the negative reviews. I went through literally the entire steam review list not too long ago. Believe me, I've seen them. And you know what? My argument stands. Because, fine, you want to narrow things down to only ham-handed political statements? Baldur's Gate has plenty of those as well. @Fardragon points out the game is rather heavy-handed on its attitudes towards hunting, and that's not the end of it. You get reputation points for saving a deserter from the law, with no moral nuance suggested. The villains are evil capitalists, and at one point stealing from merchants is described as making you no better than a merchant yourself. Are you going to tell me that isn't political commentary? Are you going to say that's in any way not a way stronger stance than including one trans woman in the game? Are you going to explain why that's somehow more nuanced, less forced-down-your-throat than Mizhena's "my parents mistook me for a man"? No. If the ham-handedness drove the anger, they'd be angry at so much more.
It's political commentary nobody cares about. Very few people engage themselves with the moral dilemmas of hunting, and calling merchants - or in our world, stores and retailers - for, more or less jokingly, thieves is common practice.
That's a very narrow parocial attitude. Hunting is a massively divisive issue here in the UK, but hardly anyone cares about transgender.
The computer games market is an international one. If I remember correctly, the German version of Baldur's Gate had to have all the children removed. If you pandered to every potential predudice you would be left with nothing at all.
- The game have sexist / transphobic trope, best case have total erasure of trans people and women character which remind me real world problem. - The game try to avoid this and try to care about diversity, and mostly get flood by "controversy" like this.
Not for saying you are part of one of this thing @Rawgrim, just to say that no I personally don't remember what you're talking about. (And I'm more or less in search for things like this, so we're not antagonists at all on this)
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I notice transgendered players are pointing out that, in this case, their "representation" via Mizhena left a lot to be desired, though.
She is just someone who says she was raised as a boy when they where really a girl. She was never intended to "represent" transgender people. That's what I mean when I say there is nothing controversial or political about the character. Any controversy is entierly invented by people looking to bully the gaming industry.
Remember when we could play games to disconnect our minds from real-world issues? That wasn't too bad.
No.
Anything that exists within this world that is created by a human being, parodies the 'real-world' in some shape or form.
In some sense, yes. But that doesn't mean a fantasy world functions like the real world etc. What I meant is that a game can transport a player to a different world. Nice if you are fed up with real world crap. Escapism for a few hours. Good for the soul.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I notice transgendered players are pointing out that, in this case, their "representation" via Mizhena left a lot to be desired, though.
She is just someone who says she was raised as a boy when they where really a girl. She was never intended to "represent" transgender people. That's what I mean when I say there is nothing controversial or political about the character. Any controversy is entierly invented by people looking to bully the gaming industry.
I have no issues with Mizhena being there either. I hope they upgrade the character to a joinable NPC. Right now I do think the implementation could have been done better. But that's it really. Flesh her out, let her join, let her shine. I bet Minsc will get a long with her plenty.
Look, I'd like a fully fleshed out trans NPC as much as the next guy, but it bothers me that that's the standard people are asking for. Like you can't have someone just casually be trans, and that's it. It has to be this big thing, they have to be an important character. It's be great to have important trans characters, but if it's always this big central thing, that sends the message that trans people aren't just people. That they're something strange and other about them that demands special attention. I dunno, I'm not trans, so there's only so much weight you should give to my voice. But that sounds like the wrong kind of representation to me.
Remember when we could play games to disconnect our minds from real-world issues? That wasn't too bad.
No.
Anything that exists within this world that is created by a human being, parodies the 'real-world' in some shape or form.
Doesn't mean it has to be biased though. Democracy 3 is a game that is exclusively about real-world issues, but it has no controversy around it because it's neutral. Baldur's Gate is about the son of a God in a fantasy world, it turns out that sticking in a tranny sticks out like a sore thumb.
@Joey Just a quick educational note: To a lot of people, "tranny" is a derogatory slur. Please be respectful of other members of the community, and avoid using derogatory words like this one. (Either "trans" or "transgender" is an acceptable alternative when talking about someone in the context of their gender identity, although I imagine that most trans people would rather just be called "people")
She is just someone who says she was raised as a boy when they where really a girl. She was never intended to "represent" transgender people. That's what I mean when I say there is nothing controversial or political about the character. Any controversy is entierly invented by people looking to bully the gaming industry.
When I played the game I thought that her parents were barbarians worshiping Tempos who really wanted a son so they raised her as a boy. At some point she did realize what they were doing but she never truly rebelled against her parents and their values—becoming a priestess of Tempos herself. There are way too many stories like that both fictional (see Galatea) and historical so it is easy to make that mistake.
She is just someone who says she was raised as a boy when they where really a girl. She was never intended to "represent" transgender people. That's what I mean when I say there is nothing controversial or political about the character. Any controversy is entierly invented by people looking to bully the gaming industry.
When I played the game I thought that her parents were barbarians worshiping Tempos who really wanted a son so they raised her as a boy. At some point she did realize what they were doing but she never truly rebelled against her parents and their values—becoming a priestess of Tempos herself. There are way too many stories like that both fictional (see Galatea) and historical so it is easy to make that mistake.
That's an entierly plausible scenario, given the limited information in the game. It isn't possible to see anything controversial unless you really really want to.
Baldur's Gate is about the son of a God in a fantasy world, it turns out that sticking in a transgender person sticks out like a sore thumb.
So do Larry, Darryl, and Darryl... but I don't see you making a thread about how they should be removed from BG1 because "Newhart" has nothing to do with Baldur's Gate.
Literally nobody disliked Mizhena just because she was a trangendered character. They hated that s/he was forced into the game for the sake of just having one, unrealistic and sloppily and without any purpose.
Ah yes the ever so believable 'there is no hate against trans people, we just don't want them being in the game' argument. It remains weird that white straight people can be in games with no purpose, but all sorts of other people suddenly need 'purpose' to justify being there. Besides Miz has a purpose, she is a cleric where you can get healing.
it's funny for a character that nobody had a problem with she gets brought up a lot
It is the execution of the character that gets brought up. Not the fact that the character is in the game.
The execution is just a fig leaf. The character is fine - both in terms of giving you personal information when you dig, just like many other BG NPCs and in terms of having more going on (involved in three quests, none of which have anything to do with her gender identity).
The real problem most people who complain seem to have is that she exists at all. Everything else is an attempt to cloak that.
it's funny for a character that nobody had a problem with she gets brought up a lot
It is the execution of the character that gets brought up. Not the fact that the character is in the game.
The execution is just a fig leaf. The character is fine - both in terms of giving you personal information when you dig, just like many other BG NPCs and in terms of having more going on (involved in three quests, none of which have anything to do with her gender identity).
The real problem most people who complain seem to have is that she exists at all. Everything else is an attempt to cloak that.
And yet the same people are also asking for Mizhena to be a full companion...
it's funny for a character that nobody had a problem with she gets brought up a lot
It is the execution of the character that gets brought up. Not the fact that the character is in the game.
The execution is just a fig leaf. The character is fine - both in terms of giving you personal information when you dig, just like many other BG NPCs and in terms of having more going on (involved in three quests, none of which have anything to do with her gender identity).
The real problem most people who complain seem to have is that she exists at all. Everything else is an attempt to cloak that.
And yet the same people are also asking for Mizhena to be a full companion...
That doesn't mean they found the current execution bad.
I love the idea of Mizhena being a companion. I have mostly say it will be great. But I found the current execution good.
It's like you ask me if I want another Minsc in my team. I'll clearly say yes cause Minsc is love. That doesn't mean I found the current solo Minsc bad. (For people who cannot get it: it's a joke about another thread on this forum I and Rawgrim have post in: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/53304/one-minsc-is-too-much-but-two#latest)
it's funny for a character that nobody had a problem with she gets brought up a lot
It is the execution of the character that gets brought up. Not the fact that the character is in the game.
The execution is just a fig leaf. The character is fine - both in terms of giving you personal information when you dig, just like many other BG NPCs and in terms of having more going on (involved in three quests, none of which have anything to do with her gender identity).
The real problem most people who complain seem to have is that she exists at all. Everything else is an attempt to cloak that.
And yet the same people are also asking for Mizhena to be a full companion...
I don't get why. So she is trans...ok. Why can't she just be a trans npc? It feels like there are too many extremes. Either she shouldn't be there or should only be there as a fully fleshed out companion npc. But she is there as a npc who is related to a few quests and has flavor text.
Why not tighten up the one line of dialogue that you have to dig for and call it a day?
Besides, I'm still waiting for the iOS release. Now I need to wait while limited dev time and attention is out into making an entirely new companion with dialogue, banter, and a carefully constructed story that won't offend anyone? Just...accept that she isn't important and move on.
Thing is: Does a game *have* to reflect real world issues? And what is exactly meant with 'real world issues'? Politics? Religious issues and extremism? (very relevant now in my country after three muslim terrorists recently bombed our most important airport) Gender and sexual issues? Racism? Since we're all human and our experiences are based on what's going on in the real world, it's evident such issues also find their way into games. Even literary classics often handle topics much akin to real world issues and relations between people. I think, though, that such issues have gotten much more on the foreground nowadays, what with social media playing an important role in information exchange. Every day we're confronted much more with what's going on in the world, for this world has gotten small due to the constant stream and exchange of information. Maybe that's also why people become more sensitive to it, to this constant influx of problems they get to see. People are unhappy about a lot of things. But I think that you should try to look past all that and try to stay positive, for when you look at the brighter sides, you can also see that the world is also a really beautiful place.
What I mean to say is that times have changed. Culture is changing and become much more open to international influences. Local issues become international issues. And topics such as gender become much more widely debatable. And eventually they also find their way into games. It's all about how you handle topics like these, topics about which various opinions exist, and trying to find the middle way inbetween, a compromise everyone can be happy with. And yes, LGTB is a reality, you can't just look past that. And I think that most people, especially in the West, have no huge issues with this particular community. I'll be blunt, I don't agree with gay parades, but I don't detest gay people for being gay. I always try to look past it, treating it as a piece of their identity, and get to know the person him/herself as a whole, so to speak. And indeed, most LGTB people are also just that: people.
As for Mizhena, I think people are more miffed about the way she was presented than that they are in arms for what she is, namely a transgender character. Maybe to some people this concept is still new, because they might not have a lot of transgender friends, which is the case with me. I have to admit that for me it certainly was a surprise to get to know Beamdog included a trans character. I just hadn't considered it, you know? Moreso because I personally don't know any trans people, and it honestly made me a bit curious to how this character would be portrayed in the game. I'm sure, though, that if Mizhena gets a bit more fleshed out, she may be a worthy addition to the game, even as a 'minor' merchant NPC.
I still don't agree on how Minsc had to have a reference to GamerGate in his dialogue. I'm in general just not a fan of meme stuff in games. I have to admit that I only recently found out that Larryl, Darryl and the other guy were also a reference, but somehow that didn't bother me as much. Maybe I rather don't agree with it because GamerGate seems to be much more controversial, and the lines Minsc says seem out of character.
Comments
Trangederism, on the other hand, is strongly associated with the PC culture, and pushing a character in this shoddy manner is seen as pushing PC culture down our throats. Which is what people have reacted against.
Bottom line is, if Mizhena was a very cleverly written playable character, with a rich and interesting backstory which might have happened to include her being transgendered in a smart/thought-provoking manner, people would have taken a whole lot less issue with the inclusion. It was the deliverance, not the substance, that was the main issue.
Two things here are not logical arguments:
* "Playing games to disconnect our minds from real-world issues" isn't a thing. It's not at all a thing. If you're playing a CRPG you're going to encounter real-world issues. What you really mean is that you don't want to be exposed to the idea that, for example, transgender people exist. That is, a specific issue you've labeled as "real world."
* Inclusion of a transgender character is not forcing politics down anyone's throat. That's a claim that betrays hypersensitivity and a thin skin. You wouldn't complain about exposure to politics you agree with, and you know it. But the inclusion of a transgender character is no more inherently political than the choice to not include any transgender characters. It's just the one that caters to your worldview, so you present it as politically neutral, which is kind of disingenuous.
For the record. This is my personal view on such things. People are people. Transgendered, gay, straight, bisexuals, every race. All of it. People should be allowed to live the way they want, and do what makes them happy. As long as it doesn't harm anyone, of course. Let people live their lives. Let them marry whoever they want. Leave them alone. Don't force opinions or views down their throats. Bigoted or otherwise. Invite everyone to the party and let them enjoy themselves. Equality. That is my personal view on it.
Sometimes, though, the noise of it all gets a bit much. In social media in particular. I think it is nice to have video games and whatnot to escape all that. Disconnect the brain and catch a breather from it.
My comment was actually aimed at the gamergate joke Minsc dishes out. Not Mizhena.
The computer games market is an international one. If I remember correctly, the German version of Baldur's Gate had to have all the children removed. If you pandered to every potential predudice you would be left with nothing at all.
Anything that exists within this world that is created by a human being, parodies the 'real-world' in some shape or form.
- The game have sexist / transphobic trope, best case have total erasure of trans people and women character which remind me real world problem.
- The game try to avoid this and try to care about diversity, and mostly get flood by "controversy" like this.
Not for saying you are part of one of this thing @Rawgrim, just to say that no I personally don't remember what you're talking about. (And I'm more or less in search for things like this, so we're not antagonists at all on this)
There are way too many stories like that both fictional (see Galatea) and historical so it is easy to make that mistake.
The real problem most people who complain seem to have is that she exists at all. Everything else is an attempt to cloak that.
I love the idea of Mizhena being a companion. I have mostly say it will be great. But I found the current execution good.
It's like you ask me if I want another Minsc in my team. I'll clearly say yes cause Minsc is love. That doesn't mean I found the current solo Minsc bad. (For people who cannot get it: it's a joke about another thread on this forum I and Rawgrim have post in: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/53304/one-minsc-is-too-much-but-two#latest)
Why not tighten up the one line of dialogue that you have to dig for and call it a day?
Besides, I'm still waiting for the iOS release. Now I need to wait while limited dev time and attention is out into making an entirely new companion with dialogue, banter, and a carefully constructed story that won't offend anyone? Just...accept that she isn't important and move on.
And how games back in the day reflected real world issues? Or did you forget to take the nostalgia goggles off?
What I mean to say is that times have changed. Culture is changing and become much more open to international influences. Local issues become international issues. And topics such as gender become much more widely debatable. And eventually they also find their way into games. It's all about how you handle topics like these, topics about which various opinions exist, and trying to find the middle way inbetween, a compromise everyone can be happy with. And yes, LGTB is a reality, you can't just look past that. And I think that most people, especially in the West, have no huge issues with this particular community. I'll be blunt, I don't agree with gay parades, but I don't detest gay people for being gay. I always try to look past it, treating it as a piece of their identity, and get to know the person him/herself as a whole, so to speak. And indeed, most LGTB people are also just that: people.
As for Mizhena, I think people are more miffed about the way she was presented than that they are in arms for what she is, namely a transgender character. Maybe to some people this concept is still new, because they might not have a lot of transgender friends, which is the case with me. I have to admit that for me it certainly was a surprise to get to know Beamdog included a trans character. I just hadn't considered it, you know? Moreso because I personally don't know any trans people, and it honestly made me a bit curious to how this character would be portrayed in the game. I'm sure, though, that if Mizhena gets a bit more fleshed out, she may be a worthy addition to the game, even as a 'minor' merchant NPC.
I still don't agree on how Minsc had to have a reference to GamerGate in his dialogue. I'm in general just not a fan of meme stuff in games. I have to admit that I only recently found out that Larryl, Darryl and the other guy were also a reference, but somehow that didn't bother me as much. Maybe I rather don't agree with it because GamerGate seems to be much more controversial, and the lines Minsc says seem out of character.