I won't use Steam ever again
I am sad because I paid $30 for Stronghold 3 Gold and, being a Steam noob, I found their service to be one of the most obnoxious I've ever used. This is a reply to all the people who want BGEE on Steam.
Let me start from the beginning. I was never interested in Steam because of the DRM so I didn't investigate. I once bought a copy of Majesty Gold HD from GamersGate, the only other place to get it was Steam. GamersGate offered a no DRM copy of the game which I was able to freely use with no strings attached, similar to GoG.com, with a little installer of my own.
Because they trusted me I bought their game and I have enjoyed the fact that I own it very much. I expect to do business with them again soon.
Now let's talk about Steam for a moment. I didn't investigate it, so buying S3 I assumed that I owned it since I bought the hard copy and thought the Steam DRM only applied for their downloads.
When I tried to install the game I was faced with quite a harsh licensing agreement which told me, this being a not word for word quote, "You are entitled to the use of one copy of the Product". Hence, I don't own the game, I only own the right to play the game.
Do you people not think that is scary? That we no longer own the right to use the hard product freely, but legally, even when we buy the disk? We only own the entitlement to play it, we have no rights to use the product itself and unassociated with Steam.
So not only was I forced to have my privacy invaded by installing a 3rd party program I didn't want and sign up for something I wasn't planning to use again, but Steam installed itself into so many directories and the game ate up so much space which is now irrecoverable due to the sparseness of where it put the files.
Furthurmore, Steam installed various Microsoft related updates which I did NOT give any permission and without my consent. Normally games will ask you if you want to download Acrobat, DirectX or whatever, but Steam just installed whatever it 'THOUGHT' I needed to run S3.
Maybe I already had these programs, maybe I didn't want them updated, either way Valve have no right to install software on my computer without my authorization.
And get this. I can't even access the game outside Steam. I can play it offline, but Steam and S3 are linked in every single way and S3 is installed in it's directory instead of an individual one. You can't access the main program .exe and the only means to run the game is through a Steam weblink which is attached to the program itself I guess.
I will never deal with Steam again, their service is horrible and they scare me with their totalitarian control over my gaming for I will not stand it again!
Let me start from the beginning. I was never interested in Steam because of the DRM so I didn't investigate. I once bought a copy of Majesty Gold HD from GamersGate, the only other place to get it was Steam. GamersGate offered a no DRM copy of the game which I was able to freely use with no strings attached, similar to GoG.com, with a little installer of my own.
Because they trusted me I bought their game and I have enjoyed the fact that I own it very much. I expect to do business with them again soon.
Now let's talk about Steam for a moment. I didn't investigate it, so buying S3 I assumed that I owned it since I bought the hard copy and thought the Steam DRM only applied for their downloads.
When I tried to install the game I was faced with quite a harsh licensing agreement which told me, this being a not word for word quote, "You are entitled to the use of one copy of the Product". Hence, I don't own the game, I only own the right to play the game.
Do you people not think that is scary? That we no longer own the right to use the hard product freely, but legally, even when we buy the disk? We only own the entitlement to play it, we have no rights to use the product itself and unassociated with Steam.
So not only was I forced to have my privacy invaded by installing a 3rd party program I didn't want and sign up for something I wasn't planning to use again, but Steam installed itself into so many directories and the game ate up so much space which is now irrecoverable due to the sparseness of where it put the files.
Furthurmore, Steam installed various Microsoft related updates which I did NOT give any permission and without my consent. Normally games will ask you if you want to download Acrobat, DirectX or whatever, but Steam just installed whatever it 'THOUGHT' I needed to run S3.
Maybe I already had these programs, maybe I didn't want them updated, either way Valve have no right to install software on my computer without my authorization.
And get this. I can't even access the game outside Steam. I can play it offline, but Steam and S3 are linked in every single way and S3 is installed in it's directory instead of an individual one. You can't access the main program .exe and the only means to run the game is through a Steam weblink which is attached to the program itself I guess.
I will never deal with Steam again, their service is horrible and they scare me with their totalitarian control over my gaming for I will not stand it again!
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Comments
When I buy an old game nobody can control my usage of it and I will not betray their trust (or lack of technology, I'm sure they would of been dictators like Valve if they could).
My usage can be anywhere from multiple installations on one computer to mod or to have different versions, to access the game files for my own personal non commercial use (to get music, to get saved games or to mod) and I can use the product without companies bullying me.
One of the oldest and most reasonable of DRMs, the 'CD required' thing, as well as the popular CD key, were very reasonable and functionable protections. But making me do what Steam wants is not cool.
...and please don't even get me started on Blizzard with Diablo III.
Well that isn't nice. It should tell you in huge writing. They remind me of those commercials where they put an * on the end of something and then give you vital information you can't read.
As for Stronghold 3, first impressions are not good.
If you really OWNED the game, then you could have sold it yourself, something that, with the current rules, is kind of illegal.
I believe it's also illegal to share (that definitely) or lend the game (to friends even) as far as I know.
Is someone informed on the subject better than I am? I might be tossing around a bunch of lies for all I know, but I believe someone that actually does read the terms of service of video game explained this to me once in one or the other gaming forum.
That said... I have 67 games on Steam XD (of which around 99% are bought through deals)
You own the right to play that game. And you will be able too. Valve has so far been very very cautious to never alienate their player base, and provides an excellent service.
You are able top purchase, install and update your games trough a non invasive, easy to manage, platform. You are also able to purchase a lot of games at very low prices, and you can be sure that they will work because of the excellent custumer suport.
You have to decideyourself wether or not it is worth it.
For a game from a boxed version to require the use of that client, though, seems underhanded. I'm all for digital rights management when it comes to digital purchases, but when I have a physical copy of the game, I really ought to be able to use it at my own discretion.
@vortican's right, though, that the broader discussion has been largely covered in the DRM thread over under the Windows subforum.
Also, Steam has historically been a safer repository for my games than my desk or closet
I only have 6 games that are locked into Steam and that's because I had no choice in the matter because there was no alternative. eg. Fallout NV. If I could somehow remove Steam, I would.
People throw the term "DRM" out there without really understanding what it means. I bet half the people who are super against DRM couldn't even tell you what the acronym stands for. Literally every game you own in a purely digital format has DRM on it, including GoG versions. They claim to be DRM free, but that's just not true. It's just minimal.
That's how I feel about the majority of games through Steam. It's minimally invasive. The games that go out of their way to be a hassle are still a hassle on Steam, or in a box format, or from any other digital download service. It doesn't have an online-always DRM. You just need to be logged into Steam, even if it is in it's offline version. I'm okay with that. It's generally way cheaper than anywhere else, and the automatic updater is really handy. Their downloads are generally quicker than anywhere else because they have such massive servers.
And to top it off, GabeN has stated in multiple outlets they have failsafes in place in case Valve should somehow go out of business. Can't say that about a lot of other digital download services.
@sandmanCCL: I don't think you know what DRM means. GOG games really are DRM free. I think GOG might sell a small number of games with CD keys (like Neverwinter Nights), but other than that, GOG games really are DRM free. You can download the installation files, makes as many backups as you want, install the games on as many computers as you want and you never have to deal with clients, online authentication, CD checks, or any other hassles.
You have the legal right to sell a game or any other type of media that you legally own even if you do not own the copyright for it. This is known as the first-sale doctrine and it's a well established aspect of copyright law.
Steam's DRM is purely that you have to log in to Steam to access your games. That's it. That is the only DRM for Steam, period. Now, there might be games on it where you have limited installations, but that would be the same if you got it directly from that developer. That's on that specific game itself and is not because of the client through which you downloaded it.
@Ward 's problem with Stronghold 3 limiting him to one installation is Stronghold 3. It is not Steam's fault. In fact, Steam has ways built into it in which he could easily rescind that installment and then put it on a different computer.
I am not pro-DRM, mind you. Just saying most people see those letters and start frothing at the mouth without really understanding it. I am totally for game companies putting DRM in their games, as long as it doesn't make the legit consumers suffer. I respect people's rights to make their programs as difficult as possible to pirate, but once they cross the line where people who legitimately paid for it start to suffer, I'm not a fan.
Diablo 3 is a good case in point. Making it online-always sucks ass. Everyone I know has times their internet goes down for a couple days, or even just a few hours. They should still be able to enjoy that game single-player.
Thank you for confirming Steam is DRM.
Here's the link to the Steam thread: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/1733/will-bgee-be-available-on-steam
And here's the link to the DRM thread: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2254/drm
I am okay with this.
I respect the right of game companies to protect their product to the best of their abilities as long as it doesn't harm the consumer's ability to enjoy said game. Considering how massive Steam has become, I'm not going out on a limb to say the consumer at large also has no problem with this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management
"Digital rights management (DRM) is a class of access control technologies that are used by hardware manufacturers, publishers, copyright holders and individuals with the intent to limit the use of digital content and devices after sale."
If I buy Torchlight from a shop. Does it have DRM? No. Because it doesn't limit the use of the content after I have bought it.
I walk out of the shop, go home, I can install it without an internet connection and I don't need a third party program to install it either. I can install it on multiple computers. If I buy a new computer, it doesn't limit the use of the installation. I can install and play today, same with installing/playing next year, 5 years later, 10 years later, etc.
It's the same with games from GOG. There is no DRM. I can do the same with my Torchlight example above. Get a copy of the game and do as I please.
And to say with Steam, it's not 'very invasive' is still invasive. To argue degrees of something is less or more invasive doesn't get around the fact that it still is invasive.
Let's look at society at large. Most people agree Government has some role in their life, right? We're okay with paying taxes. It pays for our roads, police, etc.
But Government can also spy on you, or move you out of your home if they are going to build a highway there, or a billion other things people are generally NOT okay with.
Let me tell you all a little personal story about why I like Steam and why I don't automatically assume all DRM are evil:
After every game I had ever, ever owned and most my old consoles were destroyed when my basement flooded, I started to turn to digital download services. The only games I had once the problem was solved and I finally got a new machine were on Steam. I've since had burglaries and other natural disasters occur which have destroyed my property, but I still own (or if you want to get super technical about it, own the limited license to play) every game I've ever purchased on Steam.
DRM is not inherently evil. It's only as "evil" as the company that runs it. If you don't trust Valve, and you feel like they will deny you the service you've paid for? By all means, avoid Steam. I've had nothing but exceptional experiences dealing with them, though, and owning digital copies of my games through a service like Steam has significantly increase my peace of mind when it comes to continuing having access to my games.
I don't expect everyone to be okay with it! I totally understand why there are people who want hard copies and theoretical unlimited access to the games they purchase! But I think those people should understand the flip side. There are legitimate reasons DRM exists. There is some legitimate consumer value in it. Can it go too far? Yes. If I really wanted, I could name a number of games with overtly anti-customer DRM services. But at the end of the day, I believe Steam (and Origin and digital copies sold on Green Man Gaming and, and, and...) is not that bad. It's as minimally invasive as you can get and it provides a LOT of benefits in the process.
But let's look at what's actually said there. "limit the use of digital content and devices after sale."
After sale.
So if you buy Torchlight from GOG.com, the sale is complete when you give them your money. They then send you a link to download the game--or, if you have an account with them, you can download it from your account page. (They'll also give you a Steam key if you want to sync it with your Steam library, which is a nice added feature).
The "intent to limit the use of digital content" is implicit in the fact that you have to log into your email or log into your GOG.com account in order to download and access the content you purchased. If you delete the game from your computer and want to download it again, you have to go to that same email or log into GOG.com again to do so.
Why do you have to log in? Why can't you just go to their website as a guest and just download everything you want? Because they want to make sure you paid for the game.
That's digital rights management. And it's important, because it's what allows the sale to happen in the first place. GOG.com has a product that you want; they restrict your access to that product until you prove to them that you have paid them for that product.
So, by its very (wikipedia) definition, @sandmanCCL is correct. GOG.com does use DRM. The fact that it is incredibly minimal is a good thing. But DRM is a part of digitally distributed media. It's inexorable. You have to have it, because it's the only way that the digital market can work.
The difference between venues is where that DRM exists, and how deeply it impacts the user's experience. A lot of people like Steam, while a lot of others think that requiring a client to run all of your games is too invasive. I happen to like it, because of the other features that it offers. I like being able to know when a game I want is on sale, and I like being able to chat with my friends using a voice chat that actually works better than some in-game voice chats.
When a game purchased from a retail store has DRM, the entire purpose of DRM breaks down. Because it's supposed to be there as a way to prove that the sale has happened--but in the case of a physical product, the proof is in the receipt. So there's no need for an activation server or a DRM client.
All of this (and I mean, all of it, capital, underscore, bold, ALL of it) has been discussed at length in the threads I linked to above.
I don't mean to discourage the discussion, but can we maybe do it in the threads that already exist?
Logging into a website is now classed as DRM? Didn't see that one coming.
Why do you have to go to a shop and buy a hard copy? Because they want to make sure you paid for the game. Why do you have to go to a flea market or garage sale and buy a hard copy? Because they want to make sure you paid for the game. Why do you have to log into a website like EB Games for them to post the game out to you? Because they wan't to make sure you paid for the game. It's not DRM.
No it's not. It's not DRM. Again, logging into websites is not DRM. Logging into ebay to buy a used game is not DRM. Similarly, logging into GOG to buy a game is not DRM.
When a sale has happened, eg, people selling their games at a flea market or garage sale, it's not because of DRM.
Perhaps Tanthalus can merge this thread into the DRM thread.