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Clerics and godhood

LaflammeLaflamme Member Posts: 54
edited September 2012 in Archive (General Discussion)
"Clerics are elite agents of gods, sworn to follow and obey the tenets of their deity's dogma in ways that the average mortal cannot." — http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Cleric

Considering this, do you think a cleric would ever choose to ascend to godhood? If so, what do you think would become of his relationship with his god?
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Comments

  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    I don't think clerics or priests should fight and kill. Thats why I'd like to see a rpg/mmo, where you can actually role-play and don't have to kill; I'd be happy just healing. Bienvenu Myriel is my standard for a good cleric. If you don't know about him, you will watching the upcoming musical Les Misérables, with Hugh Jackman and Russell Crowe among others. They better not mess it up.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    edited September 2012
    That depends, if you're a cleric of a god that's an enemy of Cyric (atm pratically almost everyone), and you have the chance to ascend to godhood cutting permanently one of the portfolios of your god enemy, weaking him in a way no other follower of your god could do, what would you choose?

    By the way, @Zafiro i truly don't understand the concept of a cleric being forbidden to kill or harm, except for the followers of Illmater that, a cleric is the enforcer of a god's will in the planes, based on the portfolios of his/her god kill and harm isn't an option but an necessity.

    Maybe people mistake the actual medic oath of non-harm with the figure of a cleric;
  • salierisalieri Member Posts: 245
    edited September 2012
    An interesting thought, @Zafiro, but in a fantasy setting that would only apply if the cleric were serving a pacifist god. I believe the 'no cutting weapons' in combat rule comes from real european christian precedence, and even that doesn't really make sense in the context of FR. Why would a priest of Cyric, for instance, not use a dagger?
    Post edited by salieri on
  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    edited September 2012
    @kamuizin, yeah, my bad, I guess I should mention I like to think about a God, the One and only; uncaring, and without will; clearly this doesn't fit to D&D. So, I guess I'm being off-topic.
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    There is a hierarchy of gods in the FR so it is entirely plausible that a cleric who ascends to godhood becomes a demigod or lesser god who still works for his deity. Also, gods fight each other and assume their portfolios (as in the Time of Troubles) so that could happen too. A bit like academia and corporate ladder-climbing :).
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Zafiro said:

    I don't think clerics or priests should fight and kill. .

    But Zafiro, throughout human history clerics "agents of the divine" have always fought and killed ...
  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    @DJKajuru, so they did, those so called "agents of the divine" must've been atheists and trivial or even demented.

    Mentioning I'm not saying atheists are murderers.
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @Zafiro Sounds like an NPC serving in some sort of hospital/sanctuary setting. Toting around a pacifist healer from adventure to adventure sounds like dead weight. Potions of healing and cure scrolls are lighter in weight and at least portable.
  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    edited September 2012
    @Mortianna, yeah, I'm calling it role-playing; even moving around the world map and heal people online. Also, I'm not very pleased how pots work in today cRPG's; like they do in ARPG's like Diablo and Torchlight; they make the game not only easier but unchallengeable.

    I should make an addition - joining a battleground or raid, or just plain adventuring to heal people is fighting for a good cause, but not harming.
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @Zafiro Ah, I see. You're talking about purely role-playing without the hack-and-slash. Sounds interesting. I've always wanted to play an Arcanist from 2nd edition Ravenloft who goes around collecting esoteric lore and rare books/scrolls, eluding hostile undead and such along the way. The spells I'd use (since I'd be limited to Necromancy, Divination, Abjuration, and Conjuration) would be for more defensive and reconnaissance purposes than offensive.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    @Zafiro , faith in a DnD scenario would follow this logic:

    Good Character - Would sacrifice himself for others, HOWEVER, they would also try to sacrifice evil instead of themselves.
    Neutral Character - Would sacrifice whoever needs to be sacrificed or simply not interfere.
    Evil Character - Would sacrifice others for numerous reasons, would only sacrifice himself out of fear.

    The three cases would represent true faith.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    In a P&P game, on a table with friends, the Dungeon Master can adapt the adventure to personal roleplays, but in a plataform game this can become a bit difficult. You can mode a way to make a pacifist be able to finsh the game, but the vanilla game will make hard or almost impossible to be played without killing or attacking, as 2/3 of the game experience will be lost (as you get them by killing enemies) and some important NPCs must be killed (Bodhi, Joneleth Irenicus).
  • salierisalieri Member Posts: 245
    kamuizin said:

    in a plataform game this can become a bit difficult.

    I once tried to roleplay Mario as a healer...
  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    edited September 2012
    I am aware my thoughts don't fit to good single playing BG or any cRPG. I was thinking more about an online experience where you can even own a store if you like so; be a blacksmith, a farmer, a tailor, a healer, an alchemist etc.; where the economy of the world depends on this people that wish to role-play like that.

    Hell, even a pirate! I'd love to see the option of role-playing a pirate.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    edited September 2012
    Well, Super Mario RPG from SNES could allow that, you could only use items with him :) (except in the first fight of the game).

    "Hell, even a pirate! I'd love to see the option of role-playing a pirate."

    This can be easly done if you get what i mean XD!
  • LordsDarkKnight185LordsDarkKnight185 Member Posts: 615
    Miloch said:

    There is a hierarchy of gods in the FR so it is entirely plausible that a cleric who ascends to godhood becomes a demigod or lesser god who still works for his deity. Also, gods fight each other and assume their portfolios (as in the Time of Troubles) so that could happen too. A bit like academia and corporate ladder-climbing :).

    This is exactly how it works.

    Examples would be the demi-god Uthgar, who worshipped and now rules under Tempus.

    Another is Deep Duerra (psionic demi-god of the duergar) who ascended and now rules under Laduguer (duergar god)
  • LaflammeLaflamme Member Posts: 54
    salieri said:

    Why would a priest of Cyric, for instance, not use a dagger?

    Following the same logic, it feels odd that Use Any Item makes a wizard slayer suddenly OK with using the magic he despises, or a good character OK with wearing a human flesh armour…
  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    @kamuizin, yeah, but not honorable like it used to be in ancient times; war like profession. I can go on with some thoughts - redeem yourself, become a fleet captain and fight for your faction against it's enemy, kinda like Alliance vs Horde. Become the Archmage or Archdruid in the organization of your class you represent. Or live the life of a recluse inside a cave on the way to the mountain peak where a monster resides; discover it's secrets so you can warn adventures about the danger up front, and..um..I sense I've went to far..
  • salierisalieri Member Posts: 245
    Laflamme said:

    salieri said:

    Why would a priest of Cyric, for instance, not use a dagger?

    Following the same logic, it feels odd that Use Any Item makes a wizard slayer suddenly OK with using the magic he despises, or a good character OK with wearing a human flesh armour…
    I see what you're saying, but I don't really see how that 'follows the same logic', as those examples follow a late-game character development, whereas cleric equipment rules are an across-the-board class restriction from the off.
  • LaflammeLaflamme Member Posts: 54
    It follows the same logic in that a cleric is supposed to only use weapons his god favours, not because he would not be able to use other weapons, but because he refuses to, in the same way a good aligned character should refuse to wear a human flesh armour, or a wizard slayer, to use magical items.

    What I'm saying is, in the game, the god you choose for your cleric should determine what weapons he can use, and Use Any Item should not allow your character to use an item he would normally refuse to use, but only items he normally wouldn't be able to use, such as a scroll or a wand.
  • JolanthusJolanthus Member Posts: 292
    edited September 2012
    Zafiro said:

    I don't think clerics or priests should fight and kill.

    One does not have to live by the sword to die by it. In a world with waring gods and ones dedicated to battle there will always be clerics whom take up arms to defend their faith.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    edited September 2012
    @Salieri From your first post. Christian european clerics were not permitted to shed blood. So they bludgened them with cudgels, clubs, maces and rounded morningstars. Other orders banned the carrying of blades or points.

    At a time when Armour was able to deflect most bladed weaponry, and nobles needed live captives to ransom. Whacking your oponnents armour so that it was so dented that he could not move was the favourable option. Then Robin Hood appeared, (inspired the archer kit... well a load of archers anyway) some idiot said that peasents couldn't ransom nobles, meaning that they would kill them (Check out what happened at the battle of Agincourt, Crecy etc etc) and the whole, you can't carry this type of weapon because... went up in a flash of smoke (did I mention gunpowder...) as the warrior cleric suddenly became outdated, although the ban on the weapons continued, you gotta be a traditionalist if you serve the church...

    What has this got to do with the real world we all live in being Baldur's Gate... Absolutely nowt.
  • salierisalieri Member Posts: 245
    I was with you until Robin Hood appeared. Were your history books written by Walter Scott?
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    @Zafiro i meant a joke with the pirates of today and the cracked games :) (besides of the misuse of the term, the correct word in my language would be translated as counterfeiting, as piracy, at least from where i come, is the non authorized reproduction of an intelectual material with profit interest).
  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    @kamuizin, yeah, I got it:) A bit of a touchy subject; I've said a few things about it before, seen what people say about it, and I even thought about it for a while from a moral point of view. @Jolanthus, I believe you don't have to pick up the sword to fight for a good cause. Some fight and some sacrifice and suffer, all for the same ideal.
  • JolanthusJolanthus Member Posts: 292
    That's all well and good until the forrest grove you tend is over run with orcs... Never been a big fan of Martyrdom.
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,498
    @Salieri I believe that would be @Anduin's lyrical turn of phrase, or maybe a fondness for kennings.
  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    edited September 2012
    @Jolanthus, heh, I actually like what you saying; is the same problem I have with True Neutral. And is the big problem I have with world nowadays - you can't just live inside a forest anymore, it'll probably cut down from under your bum. Here is where Politics and Lawful Good comes into place. But I still have great respect for asceticism and abnegation, as I'm moving towards isolation, and selfish enough to sacrifice myself for the greater good.

    Just for the record: I like Walter Scott; Ivanhoe was great.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    @Zafiro , don't get me wrong, but I think you are mixing it up a bit.

    First, you are absolutely right. We don't need to pick up swords and fight. No one needs to kill.

    However, artworks, such as a well written book or something more visual, will often show you the opposite way, for the simple fact that you have to show symbolic violence (symbolic , only) in order to care about peace.

    As for being true neutral... well, let's just say that whoever knows himself as a whole won't be true neutral.



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