@Jolanthus Now I'm completely lost... Heat? Humidity? The Battle of Agincourt occured on October 25th... Old calender system so the date would be November 2nd in ours. (Normandy has the same weather as England, okay a little better, but still wet and cold!)
You've never had randomly out of season days before? But I'm probably getting several battles mixed up and between hot and sweaty in armour with hot humid weather.
My dad was telling me about a suit of armour he saw on a tour of the Tower of London I believe. Apparently it came from the battle of Agincourt and there is an arrow hole in it near of of the shoulders.
"Clerics are elite agents of gods, sworn to follow and obey the tenets of their deity's dogma in ways that the average mortal cannot." — http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Cleric
Considering this, do you think a cleric would ever choose to ascend to godhood? If so, what do you think would become of his relationship with his god?
Interesting question.
If the cleric ascends to godhood, he'll likely have the same alignment as his god. If it's a Lawful Good cleric and a Lawful Good god, likely the two will get along well, sharing a similar ideology of peaceful coexistence, mutual support, building a future together, and combating the forces of evil. They would also be extremely likely to work together or help each other in times of trouble.
If the two are of any evil alignment though, it will likely be a problem, as both will see each other as potentially being a threat to them in the future, although alliances are possible for opportunistic reasons.
I think it would be similar to a master and student relationship, and is reflective of how characters of similar or the same alignment will react to each other.
There are some cases that might be the exception, like a Lawful Good cleric who worships a Lawful Neutral god, but clerics can also choose to worship a different god from what I gather, and thereby draw their powers from a different source of divinity, like say Viconia, who I believe worshipped Lolth, but changed to Shar when she reached the surface.
But rp wise, there are also things to consider, like the god potentially seeing the cleric as a threat to his power, and being concerned with the motives of ascending to godhood. For example, when Cyric visits the NPC. That being said, if the god does not see his or her will or legacy being carried out by the cleric, the cleric may have his or her powers revoked as well I'd imagine, and the cleric would have to look for another god that would allow him or her to cast spells. But chances are, there will be some diety that will see the cleric's ascension to godhood as advantageous, as clerics will always work in someone's interest, whether it's through the glory of battle, aiding those in need, supporting righteous causes, or being a great force for evil.
As for when a cleric becomes a god, it seems like at that point, the cleric no longer needs to draw upon the god, but can freely draw on his own powers, although the cleric may choose to worship a greater diety, for support from a greater power than his own.
@Jolanthus The hole in the armor does not necessarily mean that the arrow was able to injure the person wearing the armor. It depends how deep it penetrated. I have seen videos, where an arrow made a hole into the armor, but the penetration depth was only around 1 centimeter, which was not enough to get through a padding, which was under the plate.
I also read that arrows were quite inefficient against knight's armor during the first crusade (I think some participant of one of the battles reported it) and knights were able to ride through a heavy arrow fire without any significant damage. The armor quality was worse at that time than during the hundred years war (chain mails, no plate armor yet, lower quality metal), I do not know what kind of bows did the muslims use.
@Gilad The crusades occured between 1096 to 1272. Chainmail and scale armour was the best available for most knights then. Saladins troops and that of the crusaders did use bows, but not in great numbers. Saladins troops would have been using bows ineffective against the armour (I presume any english contingent would have had longbows?)
1337 to 1460 the start and end of 100 year war. Knights plated up in better technology armour... Bowmen using better technology Longbows!
@Anduin "Lots of other eye witness accounts can be found on internet, though mostly about frenchmen losing heads (the arrow it would seem, even if not able to penetrate the armour would have the power to remove the head from the neck...)"
I simply do not believe this. Are you serious about this? Arrows removing the head from the neck?!
I'm totally fascinated by the discussion about medieval weaponry and medieval clerical orders. I could read about these subjects all day. However, in fairness to the OP, I think we've hijacked his or thread without meaning to.
We need our own thread to discuss the ins and outs of what is known about medieval warfare, and how closely the D&D gaming system adheres to it.
@fighter_mage_thief, no matter which god the bhaalspawn cleric worship, what he's trying to assume is the portfolio of death, one of the actual cyric's portfolios. All the other gods hate Cyric and portfolio is life and power for a god (after the time of troubles at least), so a god see one of his/her faithful ascending to godhood, at the same time this act will hit a blow in Cyric's power source, weakning him considerable... i can't name a single god that doesn't want this to happen.
Good/Neutral deities would rejoice with a god of death of good/neutral alignment (probally he would bring death to it's natural concept, as die of age, changes... natural deaths in general, more than murder). Pretty much as Kelemvor do with dead portfolio (by the way another one that belonged to Cyric and was taken from him).
Evil deities will see a newborn god arise, weak yet (even naive in godhood issues) and not a threat to them, and by plus they would diminish the power of a strong rival that already proof himself dangeours.
@belgarathmth Totally agree... I reckon the Cleric would choose Godhood. They would be a lesser diety or demigod, presumably. So would be better able to serve their chosen master... If they become even more powerful... I dunno!
I think an evil cleric would gladly grab the divine portfolio of murder. The portfolio up for grabs is murder, not natural death, which is held by Kelemvor.
I don't think that a good cleric would agree to ascend to godhood unless her own deity chose her for the purpose and told her to do it. Otherwise, she would have the wisdom to know that she does not have the wisdom to become a god without wreaking havoc and causing horrible misery and suffering to all sentient beings. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely", and "She who knows not, and knows that she knows not is wise - follow her."
Also, the whole religious ball of wax comes from loving and feeling love in return from a deity. If she just wanted healing spells, she could get those by meditating upon the wonders of nature and receiving her magic the druid way.
The whole cleric concept is that the character is invested in serving and depending upon and trusting a god for all her strength and all her power. So she would by nature be very humble, and very wise in her humility. Unless she were in thrall to an evil deity. That would create an entirely different dynamic.
I think an evil cleric would gladly grab the divine portfolio of murder. The portfolio up for grabs is murder, not natural death, which is held by Kelemvor.
I don't think that a good cleric would agree to ascend to godhood unless her own deity chose her for the purpose and told her to do it. Otherwise, she would have the wisdom to know that she does not have the wisdom to become a god without wreaking havoc and causing horrible misery and suffering to all sentient beings. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely", and "She who knows not, and knows that she knows not is wise - follow her."
Also, the whole religious ball of wax comes from loving and feeling love in return from a deity. If she just wanted healing spells, she could get those by meditating upon the wonders of nature and receiving her magic the druid way.
The whole cleric concept is that the character is invested in serving and depending upon and trusting a god for all her strength and all her power. So she would by nature be very humble, and very wise in her humility. Unless she were in thrall to an evil deity. That would create an entirely different dynamic.
Firstly: Why is murder up for grabs? Cyric holds the portfolio of murder
Secondly: Druids and rangers do not work like that in the Forgotten Realms, they MUST venerate a nature deity to gain their spells.
@belgarathmth it's incorrect your statement. The portfolio is death, murder is an sub-classification of this portfolio. The fact that Bhaal entitled himself as lord of murderer doesn't mean that death portfolio reduce itself to this. Kelemvor portfolio is only dead, not death.
On the begin, Death, dead and hate, all those portfolios (among others) belonged to Jergal, the Lord of the End of Everything, after the events described in the dead tree book, that you can find ingame, Jergal splitted most of his portfolios between Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul.
About your 2° statement, a good cleric is still a living being (in most cases) and has the ability of change his mind, if he/she, whom has the chance of godhood, believe that this course of action can generate good results, accept or not his deity order isn't forced anymore, on bhaalspawn end events the gods, even the one that a cleric bhaalspawn worship doesn't have the power to forbid his/her choice. It's a question of free will (besides AO himself forbided all the gods of intervene on bhaalspawn prophecy in ToB).
The cleric bhaalspawn could recive his/her magic source without worshipping no one, as it's stated in planescape by "Fall from Grace" and by "Zhjaeve" in NWN2, besides you're starting from the principle that the bhaalspawn god would be against his/her godhood, and Faerûn has some examples (some even stated here) of deities followers that become gods themselfs.
I believe that your concept of good clerics, besides of not be wrong, is just part of many possibilities of priests of good deities. If yoy choose to roleplay this way, ok, but the concept doesn't close only in this view point.
Evil deities will see a newborn god arise, weak yet (even naive in godhood issues) and not a threat to them, and by plus they would diminish the power of a strong rival that already proof himself dangeours.
Evil deities would probably seek to steal the portfolio of death from a newly risen god if not outright destroy the new god without strong allies before becoming too powerful.
And to take Cyric's death portfolio, what's better than let one of his faithful to take it by right (as AO directly intervened in the Bhaalspawn question) and after all the mess that deity would just take the portfolio from him.
Cyric only gains the portfolio of murder after he kills Bhaal. His possession of the portfolio assumes that it was not taken by the Baldur's Gate game's Charname. The official Forgotten Realms lore sources don't necessarily incorporate the Baldur's Gate story. Canonically, Cyric kills Bhaal, and then becomes the god of murder. Before that, Bhaal is the God of Murder.
I am figuring this from reading the Wikipedia entry on Cyric, under the section labeled "History". There is no mention of events from the Baldur's Gate games, though the games liberally reference the events mentioned here:
I gave my answer to the OP's question assuming he was talking about the game - would you as a cleric take the portfolio of murder after defeating Melissan in Throne of Bhaal?
As far as my saying that I don't think a good cleric would take the portfolio and an evil cleric would, that's just a matter of opinion.
Comments
My dad was telling me about a suit of armour he saw on a tour of the Tower of London I believe. Apparently it came from the battle of Agincourt and there is an arrow hole in it near of of the shoulders.
If the cleric ascends to godhood, he'll likely have the same alignment as his god. If it's a Lawful Good cleric and a Lawful Good god, likely the two will get along well, sharing a similar ideology of peaceful coexistence, mutual support, building a future together, and combating the forces of evil. They would also be extremely likely to work together or help each other in times of trouble.
If the two are of any evil alignment though, it will likely be a problem, as both will see each other as potentially being a threat to them in the future, although alliances are possible for opportunistic reasons.
I think it would be similar to a master and student relationship, and is reflective of how characters of similar or the same alignment will react to each other.
There are some cases that might be the exception, like a Lawful Good cleric who worships a Lawful Neutral god, but clerics can also choose to worship a different god from what I gather, and thereby draw their powers from a different source of divinity, like say Viconia, who I believe worshipped Lolth, but changed to Shar when she reached the surface.
But rp wise, there are also things to consider, like the god potentially seeing the cleric as a threat to his power, and being concerned with the motives of ascending to godhood. For example, when Cyric visits the NPC. That being said, if the god does not see his or her will or legacy being carried out by the cleric, the cleric may have his or her powers revoked as well I'd imagine, and the cleric would have to look for another god that would allow him or her to cast spells. But chances are, there will be some diety that will see the cleric's ascension to godhood as advantageous, as clerics will always work in someone's interest, whether it's through the glory of battle, aiding those in need, supporting righteous causes, or being a great force for evil.
As for when a cleric becomes a god, it seems like at that point, the cleric no longer needs to draw upon the god, but can freely draw on his own powers, although the cleric may choose to worship a greater diety, for support from a greater power than his own.
I'm just theorizing here.
The hole in the armor does not necessarily mean that the arrow was able to injure the person wearing the armor. It depends how deep it penetrated. I have seen videos, where an arrow made a hole into the armor, but the penetration depth was only around 1 centimeter, which was not enough to get through a padding, which was under the plate.
I also read that arrows were quite inefficient against knight's armor during the first crusade (I think some participant of one of the battles reported it) and knights were able to ride through a heavy arrow fire without any significant damage. The armor quality was worse at that time than during the hundred years war (chain mails, no plate armor yet, lower quality metal), I do not know what kind of bows did the muslims use.
1337 to 1460 the start and end of 100 year war. Knights plated up in better technology armour... Bowmen using better technology Longbows!
"Lots of other eye witness accounts can be found on internet, though mostly about frenchmen losing heads (the arrow it would seem, even if not able to penetrate the armour would have the power to remove the head from the neck...)"
I simply do not believe this. Are you serious about this? Arrows removing the head from the neck?!
We need our own thread to discuss the ins and outs of what is known about medieval warfare, and how closely the D&D gaming system adheres to it.
Good/Neutral deities would rejoice with a god of death of good/neutral alignment (probally he would bring death to it's natural concept, as die of age, changes... natural deaths in general, more than murder). Pretty much as Kelemvor do with dead portfolio (by the way another one that belonged to Cyric and was taken from him).
Evil deities will see a newborn god arise, weak yet (even naive in godhood issues) and not a threat to them, and by plus they would diminish the power of a strong rival that already proof himself dangeours.
I don't think that a good cleric would agree to ascend to godhood unless her own deity chose her for the purpose and told her to do it. Otherwise, she would have the wisdom to know that she does not have the wisdom to become a god without wreaking havoc and causing horrible misery and suffering to all sentient beings. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely", and "She who knows not, and knows that she knows not is wise - follow her."
Also, the whole religious ball of wax comes from loving and feeling love in return from a deity. If she just wanted healing spells, she could get those by meditating upon the wonders of nature and receiving her magic the druid way.
The whole cleric concept is that the character is invested in serving and depending upon and trusting a god for all her strength and all her power. So she would by nature be very humble, and very wise in her humility. Unless she were in thrall to an evil deity. That would create an entirely different dynamic.
Secondly: Druids and rangers do not work like that in the Forgotten Realms, they MUST venerate a nature deity to gain their spells.
On the begin, Death, dead and hate, all those portfolios (among others) belonged to Jergal, the Lord of the End of Everything, after the events described in the dead tree book, that you can find ingame, Jergal splitted most of his portfolios between Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul.
About your 2° statement, a good cleric is still a living being (in most cases) and has the ability of change his mind, if he/she, whom has the chance of godhood, believe that this course of action can generate good results, accept or not his deity order isn't forced anymore, on bhaalspawn end events the gods, even the one that a cleric bhaalspawn worship doesn't have the power to forbid his/her choice. It's a question of free will (besides AO himself forbided all the gods of intervene on bhaalspawn prophecy in ToB).
The cleric bhaalspawn could recive his/her magic source without worshipping no one, as it's stated in planescape by "Fall from Grace" and by "Zhjaeve" in NWN2, besides you're starting from the principle that the bhaalspawn god would be against his/her godhood, and Faerûn has some examples (some even stated here) of deities followers that become gods themselfs.
I believe that your concept of good clerics, besides of not be wrong, is just part of many possibilities of priests of good deities. If yoy choose to roleplay this way, ok, but the concept doesn't close only in this view point.
I am figuring this from reading the Wikipedia entry on Cyric, under the section labeled "History". There is no mention of events from the Baldur's Gate games, though the games liberally reference the events mentioned here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyric
I gave my answer to the OP's question assuming he was talking about the game - would you as a cleric take the portfolio of murder after defeating Melissan in Throne of Bhaal?
As far as my saying that I don't think a good cleric would take the portfolio and an evil cleric would, that's just a matter of opinion.
Here's another source that does make a one-line mention of the BG story:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dead_Three