I agree character is poorly written as there is nothing in the plot that would justify her revealing any personal stuff to you
This video was already linked in another thread by @mzachary, but it's worth watching. It might change your view on how poorly you think a character is or is not written.
Thanks for that video. I like the way he points out that the magic in the forgotten realms and the options available for changing sex may make trans people more common place and open about their history.
Several times when ive heard people arguing against Mizhena, they say the opposite. That having belts of masculinity/femininity, potions and other magic makes it so that trans people wouldn't exist in that world. Every time I hear this I feel like I'm going insane or missing some completely obvious point that will make me look stupid, but Trans people are simply people that identify differently to the sex that they were born with, correct? So how does being able to change sex easier mean that Trans people wouldn't exist? Even if someone has gone through the gender changing process (in FR, it could be through belts/magic or whatever) to become fully transsexual, they could still be classes ad transgender, right??
Seriously, someone tell me if I'm missing something here, but that argument seems full of holes to me.
I understand the argument to be: "People take issue with IRL trans people because they view them as their original gender, augmented surgically / with hormonal treatment to look like their new gender. This is different in the Forgotten Realms because they are, by magic, completely and fully their new gender - right down to their chromosomes. Thus, they are not a male transitioned to female, but rather a female who had some past experience as a male. This is not different from a female who was genderbent to a male for a period of time before reverting to female. Ergo, the concept of a transitioned person does not exist; they would be whatever gender they outwardly show, and in the case of those who would be trans IRL they would take advantage of magic to be the gender outside that they feel inside. It thus becomes a non-issue."
Whether that is an overly optimistic view of human nature remains a matter of debate.
I don't think that's particularly optimistic at all, personally. The quality of physical transition available doesn't really change someone's gender, or their experiences, and a lesser quality doesn't make anybody less a man or a woman. I think what people are missing is that trans folks aren't at all /new/; the only new thing about LGBT people is the terminology; we've existed throughout history on Earth.
And, well, FR just isn't a straight recolor of medieval Earth to begin with.
I agree character is poorly written as there is nothing in the plot that would justify her revealing any personal stuff to you
This video was already linked in another thread by @mzachary, but it's worth watching. It might change your view on how poorly you think a character is or is not written.
Thanks for that video. I like the way he points out that the magic in the forgotten realms and the options available for changing sex may make trans people more common place and open about their history.
Several times when ive heard people arguing against Mizhena, they say the opposite. That having belts of masculinity/femininity, potions and other magic makes it so that trans people wouldn't exist in that world. Every time I hear this I feel like I'm going insane or missing some completely obvious point that will make me look stupid, but Trans people are simply people that identify differently to the sex that they were born with, correct? So how does being able to change sex easier mean that Trans people wouldn't exist? Even if someone has gone through the gender changing process (in FR, it could be through belts/magic or whatever) to become fully transsexual, they could still be classes ad transgender, right??
Seriously, someone tell me if I'm missing something here, but that argument seems full of holes to me.
I understand the argument to be: "People take issue with IRL trans people because they view them as their original gender, augmented surgically / with hormonal treatment to look like their new gender. This is different in the Forgotten Realms because they are, by magic, completely and fully their new gender - right down to their chromosomes. Thus, they are not a male transitioned to female, but rather a female who had some past experience as a male. This is not different from a female who was genderbent to a male for a period of time before reverting to female. Ergo, the concept of a transitioned person does not exist; they would be whatever gender they outwardly show, and in the case of those who would be trans IRL they would take advantage of magic to be the gender outside that they feel inside. It thus becomes a non-issue."
Whether that is an overly optimistic view of human nature remains a matter of debate.
Peoples definitions of transgender may come in to play here, but then even if this was the case the argument still falls flat. As others have pointed out Mizhena neither tells us how she became female, or that she is even transgender. Instead, she tells us the origin of her name and that it was different when she was male. This still makes perfect sense even if she were to use a magic belt/potion/spell...
You guys, @Dargnon brings up a really interesting new point. Has anyone thought about the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity vis-à-vis Mizhena?
I don't think it's ever come up before!
@Dargnon The girdle of masculinity/femininity solves problems of sex, not gender. While some transgender folks might be happy to completely change their sex to match their gender, there are others who identify as non-binary and might not. I know a man who is only concerned with conceptions of his gender identity, not about changing his genitals (and it's not about cost/risk re: surgery, he is genuinely happy with his body as it is). From what I've gathered, it's much more complex in many cases than physically switching from A to B.
I think suggestions to use the girdle as a plot device are generally well-intentioned, but it would frame Mizhena's gender as a problem that needs to be solved. Besides, Mizhena does use the female sprite and could be wearing one already...we don't know and we don't need to know.
You guys, @Dargnon brings up a really interesting new point. Has anyone thought about the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity vis-à-vis Mizhena?
I don't think it's ever come up before!
@Dargnon The girdle of masculinity/femininity solves problems of sex, not gender. While some transgender folks might be happy to completely change their sex to match their gender, there are others who identify as non-binary and might not. I know a man who is only concerned with conceptions of his gender identity, not about changing his genitals (and it's not about cost/risk re: surgery, he is genuinely happy with his body as it is). From what I've gathered, it's much more complex in many cases than physically switching from A to B.
I think suggestions to use the girdle as a plot device are generally well-intentioned, but it would frame Mizhena's gender as a problem that needs to be solved. Besides, Mizhena does use the female sprite and could be wearing one already...we don't know and we don't need to know.
Or could it be that it is her sex that is a problem that needs to be solved?
As an aside it should be noted that Imoen can only multi class from pure thief to mage in the enhanced edition and never reach level 9 due to the experience cap in that version of the game.
Ummmm... No? I just did this. Level 6 Thief, Level 9 Mage.
As far as different sensibilities, there's a difference between, say, liking ketchup more than mustard and flipping your lid, and they say very different things.
You guys, @Dargnon brings up a really interesting new point. Has anyone thought about the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity vis-à-vis Mizhena?
I don't think it's ever come up before!
@Dargnon The girdle of masculinity/femininity solves problems of sex, not gender. While some transgender folks might be happy to completely change their sex to match their gender, there are others who identify as non-binary and might not. I know a man who is only concerned with conceptions of his gender identity, not about changing his genitals (and it's not about cost/risk re: surgery, he is genuinely happy with his body as it is). From what I've gathered, it's much more complex in many cases than physically switching from A to B.
I think suggestions to use the girdle as a plot device are generally well-intentioned, but it would frame Mizhena's gender as a problem that needs to be solved. Besides, Mizhena does use the female sprite and could be wearing one already...we don't know and we don't need to know.
Or could it be that it is her sex that is a problem that needs to be solved?
No, not necessarily. I thought I explained it pretty well in my post, but there are actual trans players here who can probably give a lot more insight.
Mizhena's sex/gender does not need to be a problem that needs to be solved. It can very well be something in her history that she's already dealt with, and is in no further need of intervention or assistance in that regard. This is preferable as it gets away from the trope of making everything about a transgender character about transition.
You guys, @Dargnon brings up a really interesting new point. Has anyone thought about the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity vis-à-vis Mizhena?
I think suggestions to use the girdle as a plot device are generally well-intentioned, but it would frame Mizhena's gender as a problem that needs to be solved. Besides, Mizhena does use the female sprite and could be wearing one already...we don't know and we don't need to know.
Putting it in the category "needs solution" would definitely make it a bigger issue than it currently is. I wanted to point out the interesting fact, that there actually is an item like this, but it is probably for the better there is no interaction.
But imagine the fun if we had found out she is wearing one!
What if Mizhena doesn't even have trouble identifying with her the gender she's supposed to be? Let's look at what she actually says for a moment:
"I created the name myself several years ago. My birth name proved unsuitable."
"When I was born, my parents thought me a boy and raised me as such. In time, we all came to understand I was truly a woman. I created my new name from syllables of different languages. All have special meaning to me. It is the truest reflection of who I am."
Nowhere does she actually say she was born a boy. She says her parents thought her a boy.
So after thinking about it, I've written down what I believe is a much more likely scenario.
EDWIN AND THE CURSE OF THE GENDER
Edwin, angry at a high school jock who stole his girlfriend, decided to curse the bastard and his bride-to-be with Gender Blindness. The spell reads as such:
*** Gender Blindness (Illusion/Phantasm) Range: Visual range of caster Duration: 94.6 million rounds Casting Time: 1 Area of Effect: 1 person Saving Throw: Neg.
This spell affects any single person it is cast upon. The term person includes any bipedal human, demihuman, or humanoid of man-size or smaller, such as brownies, dryads, dwarves, elves, gnolls, gnomes, goblins, half-elves, halflings, half-orcs, hobgoblins, humans, kobolds, lizard men, nixies, orcs, pixies, sprites, troglodytes, and others. Thus, a 10th-level fighter could be charmed, but an ogre could not. The person is allowed a Saving Throw vs. Spell to negate the effect.
This spell temporarily gender-blinds its target. A Saving Throw is allowed and, if successful, there are no harmful effects. If a save is unsuccessful, two things happen. First, the victim is blinded, receiving a -20 penalty to his/her gender-check rolls. Second, once per turn, a sphere emanates outward from the victim for up to 30 ft. Each creature within the sphere must make a successful Saving Throw vs. Spell to negate the effect or be affected with gender-blindness for 438 thousand rounds.
Note that the subject has no memory of any gender related events that took place while he/she was gender-blind. ***
Upon successfully casting the spell, Edwin failed to make a Saving Throw vs. Spell and unknowingly became affected. Pat, Edwin's target, realized that they had been affected by this spell and immediately began concocting a scheme to exact vengeance.
On the 437 thousandth round, Pat requested an audience with Edwin to apologize, admit defeat and beg Edwin to make it stop. In return, Pat offered a hint to the location of the most powerful magical scroll in all of Faerun - the mythical Neither-Gender Scroll. Edwin agreed to dispel the magic that had been placed upon Pat in exchange for the location of the powerful scroll. Desperate, Pat jumped at the opportunity to lift the curse and shared the location of the scroll. Upon hearing the information, Edwin smiled, took two steps back, and let out a sinister laugh.
"You are still the gullible fool I thought you to be years ago! I shall now leave you and your curse. You, on the other hand, should spend the next 94.3 million rounds praying you do not see me again... for if you do, moments after the curse is lifted and you finally discover your child's true gender, I shall use the scroll you pointed me toward to change their gender permanently!"
But unbeknownst to Edwin, Pat was very careful. Pat had marked his domain every 30 feet. He was careful to not allow Edwin close enough for his curse to have any impact on him. He knew that within one thousand rounds, the impact of Gender Blindness would dissipate from Edwin, leaving him with no memory of gender related events that took place.
Unfortunately, Pat would suffer from gender blindness until their child grew to be 18. Due to the confusion, it was agreed upon that the child would be raised as a boy, but at the age of 18 (94.6 million rounds after the spell had been cast), the child would be allowed to choose their new name, since all would finally be able to determine what gender the child was. And the name that was chosen was Mizhena.
But this is not a tale of woe and worry. It is a tale of vengeance. A tale of wisdom and intelligence. A tale that demonstrates that when the wrong person feels they have nothing to lose, they will go to any measure to pay back, in tenfold, the justice that they believe is necessary...
Because you see, dear reader, Pat understood that although Edwin was quite intelligent, his greed was much greater. Pat knew that the Neither-Gender Scroll quest that was given to Edwin would be a temporary one. He knew that upon the end of 438 thousandth round, the spell effects on Edwin would lift, leaving him with no memory of gender related events while having no impact on the perceived uncapped potential that an all powerful scroll could hold. The quest for the all powerful Neither-Gender Scroll would soon be altered and become the quest for the all powerful Neither Scroll...
^What a boring read, save yourself the trouble folks and just move along.
Relax. It wasn't mean seriously, homeslice. It was written sarcastically. I'm just getting sick and tired of reading the same nonsense over and over again.
Can we please focus on shit that isn't about the negative impacts of this? Can we please shift the focus back to BG? Is it possible to just created a section in the forums titled "Dead Horse" and anything dealing with the Mizhena non-issue is just moved over there?
It looks like someone used Photoshop to transpose the current U.S. flag onto the French flag.
Dutch, upside down.
And, to comment on the OP, though I haven't played SoD myself yet, from what I gather the options in dialogs etc. has a strong "educational" character. The roleplaying quality is somewhat lacking, though that can be said about the original games as well at some stages. An evil character reportedly has only "good" options in the choices available in the dialog with the "controversial" character in question. And the Minsc/GamerGate affair I've said this about before: Beamdog and their writers should avoid making the game their personal political playground, or an arena for vengeance against real or imagined trolls. That's just not professional.
"Beamdog should avoid doing things I don't like. That's just not professional."
From what I hear they admit it was a mistake and have removed it, so it seems they agree it isn't professional and that they didn't like it themselves. Funny, no?
^What a boring read, save yourself the trouble folks and just move along.
Instructions unclear. Read it and had a good laugh.
Some people just take things too seriously. I think that person thought I was making a serious statement despite the spell duration being 94.6 million rounds.
Sarcasm isn't for everyone.
But I'm glad to see somebody got a chuckle out of it!
It has nothing to do with 'professionalism' nor lack thereof in the first place, the line was a pop culture reference and therefor not essential to the game. So when a mob, that is frankly an embarrasment to the gaming community for amongst other things their lacking sense of humor, who en masse complain and whine about it.... Well then you have the option to keep it in just for the sake of keeping it in or out of spite.
Or you can be the bigger person and remove it as it was not important in the first place
@Wayniac Not only am I tired of hearing about this(why open a thread on it, right?) I was just plain tired when I posted that, so eh. Then again, not every joke is for everyone.
Anyway, I was prepared to admit that I was wrong(or whatever the equivalent is here). My apologies for... /shrug
...to comment on the OP, though I haven't played SoD myself yet, from what I gather the options in dialogs etc. has a strong "educational" character. The roleplaying quality is somewhat lacking, though that can be said about the original games as well at some stages. An evil character reportedly has only "good" options in the choices available in the dialogue with the "controversial" character in question...
This has been bugging me as well. In original games, the dialogue choices are far less straightforward, more nuanced at times. In this expansion, it seems the writers tried a basic three option approach. I'd say good, neutral and evil by the looks of it.
However in practice, it comes down to the first being the lawful good paladin option that is always the 'best' (i.e. gets the best results) and 'educational' (This is how you should act) option. Down to the point of grovelling and pleasing. Though I can appreciate the etiquette at times, most of them are just mind-numbing to me.
The second seems to be pure comic relief. We need a funny and witty answer with every dialogue. Some are gold, most fall flat. The worst thing is that they are by and large completely ignored or have a simple response that acknowledges the joke and then straight up disregard it afterwards.
The last response is the insulting one that in optional dialogue simply shuts down the conversation completely. No quest for you, you can talk to the character again to try something different. Now THAT is patronising and very poor writing. In the main quests it simply cuts out part of the conversation, so again it doesn't add anything. Could we please have a separate end dialogue option?
All in all, I'd say it's a good effort but poor execution. We need more grey area's, options that have a hostile tone but don't tell the character the conversation is over. We need evil to be formal, charming but with cruel and insulting undertones and implications. Perhaps it was too much to hope for though. At the very least it's a step up from the one chat screen end conversation quests in BGI.
No worries @namenlos my friend. That's a silly thing to apologize for. We're on a forum. Not the first time it's happened and certainly won't be the last.
That's the risk with sarcasm. Somebody reads it in a tone based on their mood - not a tone based on your mood.
They removed it because of the backlash. I don't think anyone said it was unprofessional or that they didn't like it.
Do you really think they would admit such a thing? Don't belittle Beamdog in your unwavering faith in them. But remove it they did, and from what Trent O said they acknowledge that some things in SoD weren't as they should be and didn't have the quality they should have. Interpret that the way you want.
Comments
"People take issue with IRL trans people because they view them as their original gender, augmented surgically / with hormonal treatment to look like their new gender. This is different in the Forgotten Realms because they are, by magic, completely and fully their new gender - right down to their chromosomes. Thus, they are not a male transitioned to female, but rather a female who had some past experience as a male. This is not different from a female who was genderbent to a male for a period of time before reverting to female. Ergo, the concept of a transitioned person does not exist; they would be whatever gender they outwardly show, and in the case of those who would be trans IRL they would take advantage of magic to be the gender outside that they feel inside. It thus becomes a non-issue."
Whether that is an overly optimistic view of human nature remains a matter of debate.
And, well, FR just isn't a straight recolor of medieval Earth to begin with.
Makes you wonder of possible quest?
@Dargnon The girdle of masculinity/femininity solves problems of sex, not gender. While some transgender folks might be happy to completely change their sex to match their gender, there are others who identify as non-binary and might not. I know a man who is only concerned with conceptions of his gender identity, not about changing his genitals (and it's not about cost/risk re: surgery, he is genuinely happy with his body as it is). From what I've gathered, it's much more complex in many cases than physically switching from A to B.
I think suggestions to use the girdle as a plot device are generally well-intentioned, but it would frame Mizhena's gender as a problem that needs to be solved. Besides, Mizhena does use the female sprite and could be wearing one already...we don't know and we don't need to know.
As far as different sensibilities, there's a difference between, say, liking ketchup more than mustard and flipping your lid, and they say very different things.
There are quite a few things I love a lot, and some I am less than enthusiastic about.
Yet above and beyond, I really dislike online bullying. Had I not been a BG fan, this controversy well might have made me into one.
But imagine the fun if we had found out she is wearing one!
"I created the name myself several years ago. My birth name proved unsuitable."
"When I was born, my parents thought me a boy and raised me as such. In time, we all came to understand I was truly a woman. I created my new name from syllables of different languages. All have special meaning to me. It is the truest reflection of who I am."
Nowhere does she actually say she was born a boy. She says her parents thought her a boy.
So after thinking about it, I've written down what I believe is a much more likely scenario.
EDWIN AND THE CURSE OF THE GENDER
Edwin, angry at a high school jock who stole his girlfriend, decided to curse the bastard and his bride-to-be with Gender Blindness. The spell reads as such:
***
Gender Blindness
(Illusion/Phantasm)
Range: Visual range of caster
Duration: 94.6 million rounds
Casting Time: 1
Area of Effect: 1 person
Saving Throw: Neg.
This spell affects any single person it is cast upon. The term person includes any bipedal human, demihuman, or humanoid of man-size or smaller, such as brownies, dryads, dwarves, elves, gnolls, gnomes, goblins, half-elves, halflings, half-orcs, hobgoblins, humans, kobolds, lizard men, nixies, orcs, pixies, sprites, troglodytes, and others. Thus, a 10th-level fighter could be charmed, but an ogre could not. The person is allowed a Saving Throw vs. Spell to negate the effect.
This spell temporarily gender-blinds its target. A Saving Throw is allowed and, if successful, there are no harmful effects. If a save is unsuccessful, two things happen. First, the victim is blinded, receiving a -20 penalty to his/her gender-check rolls. Second, once per turn, a sphere emanates outward from the victim for up to 30 ft. Each creature within the sphere must make a successful Saving Throw vs. Spell to negate the effect or be affected with gender-blindness for 438 thousand rounds.
Note that the subject has no memory of any gender related events that took place while he/she was gender-blind.
***
Upon successfully casting the spell, Edwin failed to make a Saving Throw vs. Spell and unknowingly became affected. Pat, Edwin's target, realized that they had been affected by this spell and immediately began concocting a scheme to exact vengeance.
On the 437 thousandth round, Pat requested an audience with Edwin to apologize, admit defeat and beg Edwin to make it stop. In return, Pat offered a hint to the location of the most powerful magical scroll in all of Faerun - the mythical Neither-Gender Scroll. Edwin agreed to dispel the magic that had been placed upon Pat in exchange for the location of the powerful scroll. Desperate, Pat jumped at the opportunity to lift the curse and shared the location of the scroll. Upon hearing the information, Edwin smiled, took two steps back, and let out a sinister laugh.
"You are still the gullible fool I thought you to be years ago! I shall now leave you and your curse. You, on the other hand, should spend the next 94.3 million rounds praying you do not see me again... for if you do, moments after the curse is lifted and you finally discover your child's true gender, I shall use the scroll you pointed me toward to change their gender permanently!"
But unbeknownst to Edwin, Pat was very careful. Pat had marked his domain every 30 feet. He was careful to not allow Edwin close enough for his curse to have any impact on him. He knew that within one thousand rounds, the impact of Gender Blindness would dissipate from Edwin, leaving him with no memory of gender related events that took place.
Unfortunately, Pat would suffer from gender blindness until their child grew to be 18. Due to the confusion, it was agreed upon that the child would be raised as a boy, but at the age of 18 (94.6 million rounds after the spell had been cast), the child would be allowed to choose their new name, since all would finally be able to determine what gender the child was. And the name that was chosen was Mizhena.
But this is not a tale of woe and worry. It is a tale of vengeance. A tale of wisdom and intelligence. A tale that demonstrates that when the wrong person feels they have nothing to lose, they will go to any measure to pay back, in tenfold, the justice that they believe is necessary...
Because you see, dear reader, Pat understood that although Edwin was quite intelligent, his greed was much greater. Pat knew that the Neither-Gender Scroll quest that was given to Edwin would be a temporary one. He knew that upon the end of 438 thousandth round, the spell effects on Edwin would lift, leaving him with no memory of gender related events while having no impact on the perceived uncapped potential that an all powerful scroll could hold. The quest for the all powerful Neither-Gender Scroll would soon be altered and become the quest for the all powerful Neither Scroll...
Or as some pronounce it... Nether Scroll.
Can we please focus on shit that isn't about the negative impacts of this? Can we please shift the focus back to BG? Is it possible to just created a section in the forums titled "Dead Horse" and anything dealing with the Mizhena non-issue is just moved over there?
And, to comment on the OP, though I haven't played SoD myself yet, from what I gather the options in dialogs etc. has a strong "educational" character. The roleplaying quality is somewhat lacking, though that can be said about the original games as well at some stages. An evil character reportedly has only "good" options in the choices available in the dialog with the "controversial" character in question. And the Minsc/GamerGate affair I've said this about before: Beamdog and their writers should avoid making the game their personal political playground, or an arena for vengeance against real or imagined trolls. That's just not professional.
And since they removed it, why do you have to keep having a go at it?
Sarcasm isn't for everyone.
But I'm glad to see somebody got a chuckle out of it!
I mentioned it because it was part of the criticism and the controversy, which was in fact what the OP asked about. Sorry if I stepped on thy toes.
Or you can be the bigger person and remove it as it was not important in the first place
Whilst liberalism is rampant, we cannot argue that homophobia is non-existant.
Put simply, the LGBT scene is just as controversial here as it is in the states.
Anyway, I was prepared to admit that I was wrong(or whatever the equivalent is here). My apologies for... /shrug
However in practice, it comes down to the first being the lawful good paladin option that is always the 'best' (i.e. gets the best results) and 'educational' (This is how you should act) option. Down to the point of grovelling and pleasing. Though I can appreciate the etiquette at times, most of them are just mind-numbing to me.
The second seems to be pure comic relief. We need a funny and witty answer with every dialogue. Some are gold, most fall flat. The worst thing is that they are by and large completely ignored or have a simple response that acknowledges the joke and then straight up disregard it afterwards.
The last response is the insulting one that in optional dialogue simply shuts down the conversation completely. No quest for you, you can talk to the character again to try something different. Now THAT is patronising and very poor writing. In the main quests it simply cuts out part of the conversation, so again it doesn't add anything. Could we please have a separate end dialogue option?
All in all, I'd say it's a good effort but poor execution. We need more grey area's, options that have a hostile tone but don't tell the character the conversation is over. We need evil to be formal, charming but with cruel and insulting undertones and implications. Perhaps it was too much to hope for though. At the very least it's a step up from the one chat screen end conversation quests in BGI.
That's the risk with sarcasm. Somebody reads it in a tone based on their mood - not a tone based on your mood.
Besides, that was nothing. I thought my post over on another thread was dripping with sarcasm, yet somehow, somebody still took it completely seriously:
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/757790#Comment_757790
Interpret that the way you want.