IWDEE needed the NPCs much more than BG
Grum
Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
Am I alone in thinking that IWDEE would have been much better off with the EE NPCs?
The BG saga is already brimming with personalities. IWD in comparison is very flat and linear. So in Easthaven you can start with the usual party of 6. Or you can talk to the EE NPCs and get them to join your party. Allow them to open up new areas for side quests. Have banter and dialogue. It'd bring the game to life in a way which was much more needed than in BG.
Note to beamdog: I'd totally buy a dlc like this...
The BG saga is already brimming with personalities. IWD in comparison is very flat and linear. So in Easthaven you can start with the usual party of 6. Or you can talk to the EE NPCs and get them to join your party. Allow them to open up new areas for side quests. Have banter and dialogue. It'd bring the game to life in a way which was much more needed than in BG.
Note to beamdog: I'd totally buy a dlc like this...
1
Comments
I mean maybe it's just me, I don't mind the lack of banter in IWD because banter, unless it's incredibly memetic or well-written, gets boring as it never changes so once I know what is said I don't really care to see it again. Because of this, the full-party generation in IWD is something I'd rather remain the way the game's meant to be played.
If Beamdog created some NPC's for IWD, I'm sure I'd wind up trying them.
The last time I played with the NPC Project, though, I wound up getting annoyed by their constant interjections, and there were a lot of them. I started seeing it as being constantly interrupted in concentrating on what we were doing. I also didn't like the class assortment or the weapon proficiencies they picked. I felt like it limited me in what class my main character could be while maintaining party balance.
I play IWD when I feel like a lot of grinding and fighting while enjoying the top notch music, art, and atmosphere, so I'm not sure NPC's really add all that much for me.
That said, while I did mostly like the IWD NPC Project, the authors created a very specific (and therefore somewhat limiting) group dynamic with Holvir, Korin, Nella, Teri and Severn - it'd certainly be interesting to see new and different characters added to the mix.
Like what @BelgarathMTH mentions: And it ups the amount of possible NPCs for IWD even higher.
This is one of the reasons there're no official NPCs for IWDEE, I think.
NPCs can be a nice touch but I prefer my own adventurers.
The fact that there is no central protagonist is for me a benefit not a disadvantage.
I think a replayed IWD (and IWD 2 for that matter) far more times than BG saga.
I liked it that way, where the main focus is the party and the world that surrounded it. It was a different perspective of playing a RPG, and Icewind Dale has been my personal favorite since my younger days.
Also, I prefer playing Neutral/Evil parties. The IWD NPCs written by Kulyok are well-written, yes, but the NPCs are mostly Good-natured and they don't cater to those who prefer less drama within the party.
Now, the NPC project for IWD2 is a whole other matter. If only the engine was optimized enough for in-party interactions, IWD2 NPC project would have been easily one of the best mods out there for the more mature audiences.
There are a lot of hurtles and benefits.
Hurtles:
1.
Just like @bengoshi and @BelgarathMTH indicated, there are so many possibilities for character class options and race combinations. By the time I have settled on alignment, races, classes for 5 different personality types, I may want to add even more. That is a lot of work for such a linear game where npcs can't be traded in and out willy-nilly, like in bg1 and 2. The majority of the game is spent away form Kuldahar, which would probably be considered the only real central place in the game. If I write more than 5 npcs, say 7 or 8, well, that sure is a lot of effort put into npc writing that isn't even going to get any screen time in one play through (see hurtle 2). If I write less than 5, say 1 or 2, that may leave the door open for improvement later, but it's missing a lot of potential. Plus, who wants to play a game where there's only one party member talking to himself the whole time, with the rest of the party responding as one giant mass consciousness?
If I write exactly 5, which is the most ideal, than it is subject to the same problems that the IWDNPCProject is subject to: limiting the player on balance. In BG, if I want to play a wizard or a fighter, it's easy enough to find characters to fill the roles that charname can't. @BelgarathMTH had a good point: playing with the IWDNPCProject is best with a few certain character types, and how would I escape that trap if I made exactly 5 npcs? There really isn't any way, because everyone's idea of the perfect party setup is different (just check out the massive thread in this subforum). Sure you can just say, shadow keeper the classes, or do what the IWDNPCProject does, which is give each character a possible selection of so many classes. But the options presented in that mod really don't quite do it for me, and I know whatever options I present won't do it for lots of people. Plus it breaks immersion to write a paladin and have him as a fighter or a fighter/cleric. So that means if I don't want that trap, than I have to make more (to fill the positions that the other characters can't fill) or make less (so that the player can make characters to fill those roles instead) than 5.
2.
Should I just write the npcs that I want to write, for my own enjoyment, and everyone else be damned? (For example, I despise Druids, but lots of people like Druids in this game... no really, I hate Druids.) I am thinking about getting into this because I want to have fun. So writing characters that I want to write has a lot of appeal. However...
3.
Should I try to cater to the masses, giving people what they want? The problem is that if I do what other people want, it becomes more of a chore or work instead of a fun hobby. If I do what I want, than what is the point of even publishing it? I understand that you can't please everyone, but I can hear it now...this mod should have had a Druid! This mod should have had a dwarf! There's enough elves, half-elves, and humans in fandom already!
Well I like elves, half-elves, and humans, damnit! I think that they're hot! You get the idea...
So what is the point of publishing it if it's just going to be massively criticized? Gamers are incredibly merciless when it comes to criticizing npc mods. Just check out DeathMordecai's thread, "The Worst of the Worst," parts 1,2,3, etc. Mindless pages and pages of non-constructive criticism and for what? It would have been less work for him to write his own "perfect" mod than to write hundreds of pages of non-constructive criticisms about other people's work.
4.
I have never modded before, although I have done a lot of research on the side. I am bound to make mistakes and create a buggy mod, which involves fixing and troubleshooting. What if I lose steam and abandon the project halfway through, after publishing?
5.
Last but not least, how many npcs to make? As a newbie to modding, it is ambitious to make even one npc mod, not just 5, or even more! But if I make only one, or one at a time, in order to experiment and learn, by the time I get to five, they don't have any banter between them...and then I have to go back and write banter and everything between mods that weren't even written to be together! Talk about a writers head-ache. So it may be more work in the long-run to make just one and then add others instead of making them all at once.
Or if I write them all at once, and plan them out (probably during a play through of my own), am I biting off more than I can chew? Probably, at least for a newbie.
6.
I am too busy to even play the game. Why do I think that I can mod the game? What has come over me?? Have I gone insane???!!!!
Those are only some of the hurtles off the top my head.
Benefits:
1.
Expectations: there really are none. No one has really taken on writing any npcs mods for this game other than the IWDNPCProject, so what have I got to lose? In the bg games, the npcs are EXPECTED to do and react in certain ways to certain triggers, and have certain features, some of which are not even vanilla. It has almost become canon for mods to introduce "flirts," or a romance track AND a "friendship" track. Every romance "has" to react to the Bodhi abduction, which is honestly just bullcrap, because you can program it otherwise if you wanted to. It is just expected, so the players will expect it, so you have to mod it in. Every character "has" to have a tree of life dialogue, and an end of the game dialogue, and a reactive dialogue to every other npc in the game, including banters, romance shutdowns, possible violence reactions, and even "friendships" with other npcs. BG mods are expected to have voice acting, custom portraits, etc, etc, the list goes on and on.
Not so in IWDEE!! I could write an npc any way that I wanted, with zero "flirts", only one track, no other npcs to worry about except my own (if I wrote more than one), and not even have custom portraits and voice acting if I didn't want to. There are no expectations because there are no recruitable npcs to stand in stark contrast with. There are no other vanilla npcs that act as a "standard" of quality, or even of expectations. There really aren't any other mods to compare to, except for the old and used IWDNPCProject (no offense).
2.
IWD is linear. This may not seem like an advantage to gamers, but to writers it is HUGE! You don't have to worry about the player doing this first or that first instead, and what would happen if trigger A wasn't active when trigger B was active or vice-versa, or even with neither of them active or both of them active. There is only linear progression through the story, which means that you can use the linear triggers to trigger dialogues and for general writing advancement. A lot less planning and anticipation of player actions is involved. This is a big reason why there are so many more linear game than open world games like bg2.
3.
This is similar to benefit 1., but it applies to writing, not programming.
There is no earth-shattering destiny of charname. In fact, there is no charname. You can write the plot and background of the characters without even considering bhaalspawn or gorion or blah blah blah, whatever you want to do. There is nothing but creative freedom awaiting the writing of npcs reacting to the IWD adventure. Want to make a ragtag group of mercenaries? Done. Want to make a group of evil undead worshippers? Done. Want to make a group of holy crusaders? Done. Want to make a group of various alignments who are joined together out of a need to survive, and to escape the frigid northland? Done and done. No restrictions, no glory for charname, all just reactive, creative writing.
4.
IWDEE now uses the same engine as BG2. So, I can benefit from all the hard work and tutorials that modders have done on the BG2 engine and apply it to IWDEE instead of having to learn how the game works from scratch. Huge benefit.
5.
Although I love BG1 and BG2, and admit that they are epic games, I am part of the small crowd that believes that IWD is just better than either BG. It's plot is better written, it has more excitement, the battles are better, and the plot keeps you guessing. No offense, BG, but your plot was see-through from the very first time I played (except for Yoshimo, although you certainly slammed me in the head with all those freaking hints, didn't you? I was just to dense to get it). YOUR advantage, BG, lies in your open world, not in your stellar writing (although it is still good, just not as good). If you can overlook it's linearity, IWD is just better.
Hah!! Nyah! Nyah!!
6.
This community may be the most supportive gaming community in the industry.
(Maybe this should be in its own thread? Sorry if this is out of place.)
You could try to write their stories with a bit of class vagueness, so you could offer a bit more freedom to the player. The NPC Project folks wrote their characters such that the stories don't make much sense unless you keep them a certain class. For example, Severn can be a sorcerer in the mod options, but his story makes absolutely no sense if he's not a bard. Korin's story says he's a ranger, not a ranger-cleric. Holvir makes no sense as anything but a paladin, and Teri says nothing about learning magic, even though she can be a mage-thief in the options.
If you truly hate druids, you should definitely not try to write one, because your bias is bound to come out through the words you put in the character's mouth, and people who actually do like druids will be angry.
There is apparently a limitation in the IWD dialogue programming where the main character must be kept in the top position in order for NPC dialogues with the main character to work. That makes it very hard for the player to play a squishy as the main character and still have interactions with the other characters.
If I were you, I would try to contact the people involved on the first NPC Project to ask for advice about what to expect while writing and producing another one. I think @kulyok was one of the leads on the original project.
You could likely find more of them by inquiring around over at the Gibberlings Three website.
EDIT: Btw, writing a complete five-member plus player character party for Icewind Dale is a huge undertaking. Even though you don't like BG as much, I'd advise writing and releasing a single modded NPC for BG first, if you've never modded before, so you can learn how all the programming works and get some experience with successfully creating a single NPC from start to finish, that works as intended in the game.
There was one guy on this forum who made a great analysis of Dorns Deep. He could be potentially a great writer for such a mod.
I was under the impression that the upgraded IWDEE engine was more similar to the BG2 engine (in regards to player being in the first slot). I have heard of that dissimilarity before, but I don't know how it plays out in the IWDEE engine. I guess I will have to do some experimenting.
Now that the engines are essentially the same, that limitation is gone. BUT, there is no Charname. So you would assume that your player would be Player1, but there is no reason that I can find with the current engine that NPCMod could not address Player2 or Player3 instead, as the case may be. You would just have to set up a variable that would create different dialogue tokened responses based on Player slot placement. This would most likely be easily addressed by manually editting a simple variable during Weidu installation that could afterward be edited in game via the console.
What do you guys think?
Edit: this would also, if planned out and programmed with the right forethought, allow additional player made pcs to initiate dialogues and be addressed by NPCMods. For example, NPCModA could address Player1 and NPCModB could address Player5 instead. Of course, just by changing a few simple global variables, you could also have NPCModA and NPCModB both address Player5. Just find someway to get past the Player perma-death thing. Otherwise, if Player5 dies, all of a sudden Player6 could become Player5 automatically...which could result in some confusion, especially if NPCModA was Player6. Then NPCModA would just be talking to himself, and NPCModB would be talkin to NPCModA instead of Player5. Hmm...
Oh well, you still have that problem anyway you look at it, whether or not you are addressing Player5 or Player1.
The only modders I know are @elminster and @subtledoctor . Maybe one of them can help with some feedback. Also, does anyone else know active forum members who mod, who might be willing to help @mashedtaters with some advice and feedback?
IWD, to me, is like the perfect multiplayer version on BG. Even though BG already is Multiplayer.
I don't particularly want/need an IWD NPC mod but that doesn't mean I don't want anyone else to have one.
I've actually done IWD with the npc mod before and I love it.
I'd love for a game to start you in a Tavern, then you can follow the main plot or adventure around a bit. Baldurs Gate 2 achieved that fairly well giving you the choice to go on whichever subquest in whatever order and even BG1 you can go to several different places before you hit bandits then cloakwood.
It would be great for a new game if you were an adventuring party in a Tavern. You can help restore the king (whatever main plot) or go investigate kobold ruins, a haunted castle, try to stop raiders based out of a nearby swamp, or explore the nearby town.
In the prologue, there are NPCs found around town.
(1) In the Winter's Cradle Tavern there is the dwarf Hildreth. She becomes a recruitable lawful neutral dwarven fighter, you can choose her kit.
(-) She has given her oath to go on the expedition and will see it out to its completion. Doesn't get along well with overtly evil characters, sees lawful good paladin types as being dangerously naive.
(2) Accalia in the Temple of Tempus becomes recruitable. She is a chaotic neutral Priestess of Tempus.
(-) She offers to join the party, saying that she has had a vision of great conflict that will follow in their wake. Happiest when the party gets its hands dirty, though is against killing noncombatants.
(-) Through player interaction can be raised to Chaotic Good or fall to Chaotic Evil.
(3) In the Snowdrift Inn, add a human assassin. When you recruit him, you have the option of changing his class to any of the thief kits. He is lawful evil.
(-) He has taken Hrothgar's coins and will see the expedition out. Will have at least one dialogue where Hildreth catches him stealing coins from a corpse without giving the party its share.
(-) Through player interaction, can be raised to lawful neutral.
(4) Replace the lone orc outside of the cave with a half-elf druid. She offers to join you in ridding the caves of orcs. If you recruit her, you can choose to make her any of the druid kits or a fighter/druid.
(-) Doesn't give one fig about easthaven, but is very concerned about the pain that she feels in nature. Doesn't get along too well with any of the other NPCs, but will gladly fight with anyone who furthers her ends.
(5) Replace one human commoner in the bar with a human mage. When you recruit him, you can choose to make him a specialist or a sorceror. Neutral Good.
(-) He has been stuck in the 'backwater' of Easthaven his entire life, and wants nothing more than to get out so he can grow his burgeoning magical powers. Will gladly sign up with anyone if it means a way out.
That's 5 NPCs in the prologue who can join you. The alignments...
(1) Neutral Good
(2) Lawful Neutral
(3) True Neutral
(4) Chaotic Neutral
(5) Lawful Evil
All have a reason to be together. All can "get along" without killing each other.
-------
Later start adding more NPCs, so parties can have a more good or evil aligned party as they see fit. This is by including NPCs in Kuldahar.
In the temple, add a Paladin NPC who will agree to join you. As always, you can choose his kit.
In the tavern, add a bard NPC. Again, you can choose his kit.
In the Kuldahar pass, add a half-orc NPC. Like the goblins, he can feel the call. Unlike the goblins, he can resist it, and will happily join any group which will give him the chance of getting it out of his head. Choice between Berserker or Barbarian. Starts as chaotic evil. Through player interaction can become chaotic neutral. Does NOT get along with Hildreth.
Also in the Kuldahar pass, add an elf ranger, who is investigating the odd movements of the goblins, giants, and the tracks that he has never seen the like of before. Chaotic Good, can be any ranger kit.
----------
5 NPCs to start off for the prologue. If there is demand, add in the 2 within Kuldahar pass and 2 within Kuldahar itself. Gives options for just about any class in the game. For the most part the party members can work together. Nobody comes too late to be 'unatainable.' Most if not all NPCs can be mixed for different experiences. After the initial 5, the other 4 can be staggered in release to get more money from each DLC.
That'd be what I'd love to see.
Having interactive and bantering NPCs is the single one thing that would add great depth to the game and make the game more replayable and fun!