Archer or Stalker

Danacm

Im play currently a game in bgee SOD, bit i want to play another only in bg2ee.
I want to try a ranger but i cant choose between archer and stalker. I heard that arrows are nerfed in bg2, is it corrected in bg2ee? And backstab is viable later in tge game ? Archer can fight well in melee if needed ?

Thats all questions and i need your advices.

Thanks for help

Queegon

There's not much special in Stalker unless you are a fan of a wattered down fighter with some thieving abilities plus you can always have Valygar in party for that.
Archer does ok in melee, if needed, as you'll want to start with 18 in strength anyway to utilize composite bows, though of course he/she won't get any extra attacks from proficiencies. It can be overriden by installing Weimer's item upgrade mod where apart other sweet items you can craft a +4 club after Spellhold that sets your club prof to GM.

joluv

The "nerfing" is that magic arrows in BG2 don't get the same damage bonus as in BG1. This is still true in BG2EE. Despite this, Archers are still very, very good, and they will be doing plenty of damage. Arguably their best weapons are available very early in the game, and there is plenty of excellent non-metallic armor for them to wear. I think their shortcomings in melee tend to be overstated.

A Stalker is basically just a weaker, less useful Fighter/Thief. I think people just like them for roleplaying reasons.

Sids1188

Generally speaking, archer is the more powerful class. I find them a rather boring though, to be honest. Just point and shoot. Stalker feels a lot more fun to me. I have to agree that there is little reason to choose them above a fighter thief though. One of my favourite characters was a dualed stalker/cleric (that combo is obviously pretty terrible with archer) which I found great for backstabbing with a club and crom fayer.

joluv

Sids1188 said:

dualed stalker/cleric (that combo is obviously pretty terrible with archer)

It's not the best, but this guy doing a GWW isn't terrible.

lunar

Archer is a beast. If you want to kill stuff quickly, archer is the way to go. Only a few enemies can give you a very slight headache, but overall an archer can tear through any foe. That arrows lack damage bonus is of little importance.

Clay golems:you need magical crushing, you can not kill them ranged.
Stone golems:you need +2 arrows but they are plenty
Iron/adamantine golem:you need +3, Tasheron's bow hurt them! And they are sitting ducks if they can not walk across a narrow door.
Stuff that requires +4 to hit:there are only a few monsters like this, you need Gessen's bow, Firetooth crossbow, or one of the heavier slings to hit them, but it is of no consequence. Slings do massive damage with giant strength bonus on top of your kit bonuses, and with greater whirlwind number of attacks is moot.

Shortbow is the way to go or bg2, Tugian bow is super awesome starter weapon and easy to get. Arrows are also very tactical:fire/acid arrows to melt trolls, ice arrows to disrupt casters through stoneskin, dispel arrows for debuff and arrows of biting to lock enemy mages. Arrow of detonation for mass-slaughter.

Sids1188

joluv said:

Sids1188 said:

dualed stalker/cleric (that combo is obviously pretty terrible with archer)

It's not the best, but this guy doing a GWW isn't terrible.

I stand corrected. Didn't think archer bonuses affected slings. Learned something new there and now you've got my restartitis acting up ;P Don't suppose it works with darts?

Danacm

Hm, the archer bonuses not apply to all missile weapons, like slings, darts etc ?

Queegon

They apply to any ranged attack...too bad archers can only specialize, not master, in slings...
You can go archer13 dual to cleric (dual at 1.5mil, regain at another 1.5mil). You'll lose 2 points in damage and about 5 in thac0 but get tons of spells instead.

@joluv Archer/Cleric multi-class?

OrlonKronsteen

Stalkers are a lot better than they get credit for. They don't have the same backstabbing prowess or utility of a f/t, but they level more quickly and thus have noticeably better THACOs. They also get way more proficiency points than a f/t which is really handy. There are also armours in SOA and TOB which allow you to tank, so essentially you have the melee power of a vanilla ranger in a character who can also backstab. Add to that the rp value (including a great stronghold quest) and they're a fun option.

joluv

Archer bonuses apply to all ranged weapons (even Energy Blades!). It's just that you can only get Grandmastery for bows and crossbows. You can only have two pips for darts and slings, and one pip for daggers and axes. I don't think there's much point to a dart archer, though.

@Queegon: The screenshot is of a dual-class. Was that the question?

Queegon

Right, I just didn't think that was a dualled 18/x ranger cleric instead of 7 or 13. For +6 bonus you might as well keeper a multi-class as your choice doesn't get fighter HLAs yet you mentioned GWW.

Danacm

I think the archer fits well for my party. I always miss fro, rangers btw is set traps, and maybe some ability to not be a weaker fighter, like immun to fear, or immune to entangle would be fine additions, and barbarian like movement speed bonus.

joluv

@Queegon: Yeah, it's a 19/28 dual. Not suggesting actually making that character.

pwaring

Danacm said:

Im play currently a game in bgee SOD, bit i want to play another only in bg2ee.
I want to try a ranger but i cant choose between archer and stalker. I heard that arrows are nerfed in bg2, is it corrected in bg2ee? And backstab is viable later in tge game ? Archer can fight well in melee if needed ?

Archers are okay in melee, though they suffer from a lack of proficiency points. With ranged weapons they are deadly - I have a 16th level elven archer with Gesen's bow. Four attacks per round, THAC0 of -11 and a +10 damage modifier (+5 proficiencies, +5 archer abilities).

Arius

Archer Eyes amulet is now in BG2. Stalker Gauntlets are not. LAMEEEEEEEEEEEE

Gotural

Stalkers are indeed underrated, they can actually use Hardiness + Armor of Faith + Defender of Easthaven to get 85% damage resistances and this alone make them better than F/T in my opinion.

Thought I still think that the Archer is better with Call Shot reducing enemies' saves which is unique.

cbarchuk

I love the Stalker kit! If you want a lightly armored dual wielding stealth fighter with tons of proficiency points, excellent THACO, excellent hitpoints, some helpful spells, backstab all rolled up into a single class then the Stalker is for you. I did a playthrough not too long ago with a Stalker and he was a beast. One of my favorite classes.

Jarrakul

It really depends on how you want to pay the character. I wouldn't worry too much about archers being weak in BG2, though. I took one through the whole saga shortly after BG2EE came out, and while she was less powerful in BG2 than she was in BG1, the downgrade was from "godlike" to "quite strong."

Just don't use longbows. Shortbows, crossbows, slings, whatever, but not longbows. They're stronger in BG1 where you'll be strong enough already, and weaker in BG2 where the disadvantage is actually going to matter.

nomadmerc

The new stalker *backstab item was handy as well.

Queegon

Jarrakul said:

Just don't use longbows. Shortbows, crossbows, slings, whatever, but not longbows. They're stronger in BG1 where you'll be strong enough already, and weaker in BG2 where the disadvantage is actually going to matter.

Tuigan bow (+1 apr and +1dmg on a shortbow?) and Gesen bow are both better than what you can get in umodded game in terms of longbows.For longbow users there's pretty much just heartseeker or for 19str archers Strong Arm with some extra damage.

And with Weimer's upgrade you can get Teleomortis crafted from Gond/Gesen string + Heartseeker into a longbow version of Gesen:

Combat Abilities: Creates its own ghostly +4 arrows. A target struck by such an arrow has a 5% chance of being confused for 30 seconds.
THAC0: +4
Damage: 1d6 +4
Weight: 7
Speed Factor: 1
Proficiency Type: Longbow
Type: 2-handed
Requires: 18 Strength

joluv

Even the God Bow is a shortbow.

Skatan

Archers are great with anything, but I like them with xbows and kuo-toa bolts (you get enough of those in underdark). The kuo-toa bolts, compared to most other bolts, do 2D6 base damage. IH and Crit.strike should do an unneccesary amount of damage.

lunar

Yeah, @Skatan has a point, you can farm kuo toa and shaguain bolts fairly easily and they are very deadly. Army scythe crossbow is somewhere in bg2, right, it can help alleviate the apr problem of xbows.

The best archer should have ***** in shortbows and crossbows, ** in slings, and one * in staves or spears and one * in two handed style. You can have this at max levels, however order is important, though. I recommend gm in shortbows at first, then crossbows, as tugian bow's apr bonus stack with gm bonuses for very fast attacks throughout majority of SoA. Kuo-toa bolts and the need for firetooth crossbow's +4 to hit come later in the game.

Queegon

Army Scythe can be obtained right at the beginning from Bernard in Copper Coroner after freeing slaves.

pwaring

Jarrakul said:

Just don't use longbows. Shortbows, crossbows, slings, whatever, but not longbows. They're stronger in BG1 where you'll be strong enough already, and weaker in BG2 where the disadvantage is actually going to matter.

Also, I don't think there are any longbows with unlimited ammo (unless you use the quiver of plenty, but that only gets you +2 arrows which aren't sufficient to hit a lot of enemies in ToB).

Jarrakul

@pwaring that's one of the reasons longbows are bad, yeah. The lack of unlimited ammo longbows means more than just a convenience cost, too. Unless you raid Watcher's Keep before starting TOB (which many people do, but I strongly recommend against as it wrecks the difficulty curve), longbows have no way to hurt anything that needs +3 weapons to hurt. In TOB you finally get +3 arrows, but several enemies, including the final boss, require +4 arrows, and those don't exist. Crossbows, shortbows, and slings, on the other hand, all have options to hit as +4 weapons (although crossbows can't hit as +3 until you visit Watcher's Keep).

pwaring

Jarrakul said:

several enemies, including the final boss, require +4 arrows, and those don't exist.

I have some Arrows of Piercing which claim to be +4 to THAC0. Never used them though as I always pick up the two shortbows with unlimited ammo, and the rest of my party uses slings, crossbows or darts (in the rare occasions where I don't want to engage the enemy in melee, which is really only against mind flayers).

Queegon

pwaring said:

Jarrakul said:

several enemies, including the final boss, require +4 arrows, and those don't exist.

I have some Arrows of Piercing which claim to be +4 to THAC0.

Didn't check but I think those are +0 as far as enchantment goes. Maybe +1 at best. They just give thac0 bonus. Sad as it is, for useful longbows you have to get the item upgrade mod.

Objulen

There are so many great kits to try and not enough time to play.

The question I see about Stalkers, from a mechanics standpoint, is efficiency being in favor of the multiclass character. A Fighter/Thief Half-Orc has 19 strength, and so won't need a strength boosting item in BGII for a while, espcially with the strength Tome getting them to 20. They can also be the party's trap/lock specialist, something Stalkers can't do, so you'll still need a thief for that role. A Stalker may get more proficiencies, but by the time you hit BG 2 you don't need that many, since you're limited to 2 pips in any one weapon. Their stats are also a little easier to swing.

Stalkers have some extra utility from their spells. Shield of Faith's damage reduction is very good later in the game. That could make a big difference, especially in ToB, but by the time they get Haste and their other kit spells your mages and/or sorcerers will be able to apply them easily. Freeing up their spell slots is nice, but does not seem incredibly necessary.

Arius

My Dwarf Fighter thief can go toe to toe with my non kitted elf ranger. The Dwarf does have a 21 con though courtesy of the helm of dumathoin.