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SPOILER: The mother of our hero...

SamuelVargSamuelVarg Member Posts: 598
OK. Here is the deal. I see a contradiction in BG and BGII-tToB.

In BG Gorion says in a letter, that is in his room in one of the top floors in Candleceep, that he and the PC:s mother where lovers. (I think that Gorion wrote that the PC:s mother was killed in childbirth or something like that and that's when he adopted our hero.)

In BGII-tToB he says that he just ran into a sacrificial ritual and snatched the PC (who then was an infant/child) from a Bhaalpriestes (I think that is was she was) who was the mother of the character.

Only I who find thees two stories a little bit contradictory?

---------

Boo does not like contradictions or ret cons. Not at all.

And neither do I.
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Comments

  • Space_hamsterSpace_hamster Member Posts: 950
    I don't recall that letter from BGI, got a screenshot? ;)

    The PC is a bastard in the classical sense, devoid of land and title, thrust out into the cold harsh world to make his way by sword and wit alone.
  • SamuelVargSamuelVarg Member Posts: 598

    I don't recall that letter from BGI, got a screenshot? ;)

    The PC is a bastard in the classical sense, devoid of land and title, thrust out into the cold harsh world to make his way by sword and wit alone.

    No screenshot. Sorry. It was many, many years ago I played this.
    I will google. I will be back.
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    edited October 2012
    SamuelVarg is correct, I have been wondering about this contradiction myself. I figure the developers have simply forgotten about a tiny piece of canon lore they had set up previously. In game projects as large as the BG series, that happens on occasion.

    The scroll's item code is SCRL2J, and here is the part which is relevant to the topic:

    [...] For reasons unknown to me, he sought out women of every race and forced himself upon them. Your mother was one of those women, and as you know, she died in childbirth. I had been her friend and, on occasion, lover. I felt obligated to raise you as my own. I have always thought of you as my child and I hope you still think of me as your father. [...]
  • TalvraeTalvrae Member Posts: 315
    he could have been lying
  • SamuelVargSamuelVarg Member Posts: 598
    Thanks for finding the letter.
    Any thoughts about this? Anyone?
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    Sounds like the Candlekeep version is the one he wanted CHARMAME to believe, whereas the ToB version is what actually happened.
  • SamuelVargSamuelVarg Member Posts: 598
    Lemernis said:

    Sounds like the Candlekeep version is the one he wanted CHARMAME to believe, whereas the ToB version is what actually happened.

    See what @Jalily says above. I agree with her.
  • Awong124Awong124 Member Posts: 2,643
    Jalily said:

    I remember that letter...

    My first thought was that

    Gorion was trying to protect the PC from the truth of what their mother was and the fact that he killed her to stop her from sacrificing her child.

    But if that's the case, the inconsistency should have been acknowledged somewhere in his ToB lines, in particular as a dialogue choice for someone who played BG1.
    If that was the case, the part about being her lover was kind of unnecessary. Now the PC will involuntarily start picturing them doing it, ewww. I think that would emotionally scar the PC more than the truth.
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    As for Gorion having lied about it, I doubt that was the intention of the writers. I mean, that lie does not really make the bad news any better, does it?

    Obviously, the worst part is that CHARNAME's dad was the god of murder. That being out of the way, which one is better: that (1) CHARNAME's mom was a kind woman who had been raped by Bhaal, or (2) that she was an evil priestess of Bhaal who gave herself to the lord of murder willingly. Both options seem pretty horrible to me, and I wouldn't know which one has the greater potential for making CHARNAME feel even worse than the other.

    Dunno, I'm still pretty much convinced that they simply forgot about the mom lore they'd set up in BG1.
  • DeathMachineMiyagiDeathMachineMiyagi Member Posts: 120
    edited October 2012
    I can understand why Gorion would rather you think your mother was a friend rather than an evil nasty cultist ready to sacrifice you. The detail that makes that letter weird is the throw-in about her being his lover, 'on occasion.'

    That would be creepy enough for a foster child to read if true. I mean, kids don't really like hearing stories about their parent's (or foster parent's) sexual conquests. If the whole thing was made up in addition to that, I think we can say Gorion was a creepy old man who liked post-mortem bragging about how he banged your mom.
  • DeathMachineMiyagiDeathMachineMiyagi Member Posts: 120
    And yes, I don't read it any other way than 'the developers forgot about it.' Throne of Bhaal was riddled with such bizarre leaps in the plotline.
  • ramagonsramagons Member Posts: 96
    Adul said:

    As for Gorion having lied about it, I doubt that was the intention of the writers. I mean, that lie does not really make the bad news any better, does it?

    Obviously, the worst part is that CHARNAME's dad was the god of murder. That being out of the way, which one is better: that (1) CHARNAME's mom was a kind woman who had been raped by Bhaal, or (2) that she was an evil priestess of Bhaal who gave herself to the lord of murder willingly. Both options seem pretty horrible to me, and I wouldn't know which one has the greater potential for making CHARNAME feel even worse than the other.

    Dunno, I'm still pretty much convinced that they simply forgot about the mom lore they'd set up in BG1.

    So to have had sex with the living embodiment of murder, a woman has to be either raped or evil to you? Slut shamer.
  • _N8__N8_ Member Posts: 77
    It looks like an outright mistake by the writers. ToB didn't have the greatest story. Seems like the writers just dropped/forgot about some of BG1's story to make telling ToB's story a bit easier.
  • HoebaggerHoebagger Member Posts: 46
    I'd have to see both of the texts again but I'm not sure why they're contradictory. Perhaps his mom was the priestess and Gorion went in there as she was dying and nabbed the kid during the ritual.

    Without looking at the source, they don't necessarily seem mutually exclusive.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    I don't think they're contradictory either. My own fanon is that Gorion was in love with a Cleric of Bhaal, who later tried to sacrifice her child, and then he had to intervene. I mean, isn't it strange that he arrived just in time to save the two children? It's obvious he knew when and where this was going to happen, she had told him during their pillow talk sessions ;D
  • kilroy_was_herekilroy_was_here Member Posts: 455
    So the two logical choices are that

    1) Gorion was in love with a cleric (or at least follower) of Bhaal and either he didn't mind or she didn't tell him and he never caught on.
    2) Gorion wrote a false letter about the mother just in case he died before being able to tell CHARNAME, and assuming that CHARNAME would be the one to find the letter.

    Since Gorion always seemed like the impulsive type. *Quickly, without any preparation let's take the only road out of town because we know that someone is trying to kill you. We'll go at night without my two friends I told to wait somewhere else for no reason and I don't have darkvision; I forsee no problems.* ...yeah, I'm guessing it's the first option.
  • DeathMachineMiyagiDeathMachineMiyagi Member Posts: 120
    scriver said:

    I don't think they're contradictory either. My own fanon is that Gorion was in love with a Cleric of Bhaal, who later tried to sacrifice her child, and then he had to intervene. I mean, isn't it strange that he arrived just in time to save the two children? It's obvious he knew when and where this was going to happen, she had told him during their pillow talk sessions ;D

    Eh. This works semi-decently as a sort of fanwanky way around Bioware's lazy storytelling, but let's still call it what it is. If it weren't lazy, they would have addressed the 'Gorion was apparently f***-buddies with a crazed child-murdering Priestess of Bhaal' issue directly instead of having Gorion write one account first and then spout off the contradicting account later.

  • ramagonsramagons Member Posts: 96
    maybe gorion just had a really messed up childhood and was only into bad girls that worshipped murder gods.
  • kilroy_was_herekilroy_was_here Member Posts: 455
    ramagons said:

    maybe gorion just had a really messed up childhood and was only into bad girls that worshipped murder gods.

    That would explain his poor decisionmaking skills. (I blame a low WIS)

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    Gorion had sex with my mother! Eugh!

    Playing horsey with the Lord of Murder is one thing but Gorion! How drunk was she?
  • KenKen Member Posts: 226
    edited October 2012

    I can understand why Gorion would rather you think your mother was a friend rather than an evil nasty cultist ready to sacrifice you. The detail that makes that letter weird is the throw-in about her being his lover, 'on occasion.'

    That would be creepy enough for a foster child to read if true. I mean, kids don't really like hearing stories about their parent's (or foster parent's) sexual conquests. If the whole thing was made up in addition to that, I think we can say Gorion was a creepy old man who liked post-mortem bragging about how he banged your mom.

    You are what!? 22 in the game, and you run around killing people left and right. Your stepfathers sexlife is the least of your worries
  • neleotheszeneleothesze Member Posts: 231
    edited October 2012
    Another case of Jon Icarus/Jon Irenicus :P

    I always assumed I could tell the Solar to stop lying about my mother but when it turned out I couldn't, I was forced to concede that, for 'plot sensationalism', the writers saw fit to turn everyone's mother into a person who would kill her own child and Gorion into a murderer.
    Post edited by neleothesze on
  • Syntia13Syntia13 Member Posts: 514
    As someone have pointed out in different thread, the information given us in ToB is incorrect on many accounts, including the one that CHARNAME was supposedly conceived during the Time of Troubles - except Time of Troubles happened 9 years prior to BG1, when CHARNAME was already 11.
    If you ask me, from in-game perspective, all those 'trials' are just a bunch of bullsh*t conjured up by the Solar to see what we'd do with them. (That Solar annoys the hell out of me, by the way. Not only it's bossing me around in my own pocket plane and yanks me there at a whim, but it also has the gall to interrupt my final boss fight and deny me the pleasure of snapping Melissan's neck. Bah! If I ever wrote a BG fanfic, the Solar would be consumed by a slayer alongside Melissan.)

    From meta-perspective it's just a lazy clishe-d writing, when the sequel tries to prove that everyone is related to everybody, and that they'd known each other from forever and ever, or that 'their fates had been intertwined from the dawn of time', even if in the original game/movie/book/whatever the protagonists clearly met for the first time, came from completely different backgrounds, and they only met by chance.
    (I'm not a big fan of 'fate'. In fact, I'm an avid disliker of the concept).
  • ZwiebelchenZwiebelchen Member Posts: 86
    edited October 2012
    Hmm... I think it could be possible for Gorion to have lied in this letter. But I like his cynism, throwing in a "your mother" joke. ;)

    I'm more interested in learning about Imoen's mother, to be honest, as we don't get even a single information on her backstory. Was she a red/airhead aswell? Did Gorion also bang her? How did Gorion even find Imoen, as she was not with Sarevok and Charname in the temple? From a TOB point of view, Imoen is equally important to the story as Charname (she even developes the minor cleric bhaalspawn powers at some point).
  • neleotheszeneleothesze Member Posts: 231
    edited October 2012
    @Zwiebelchen Aha! Whydid Imoen end up in Candlekeep? Hmmm...

    The truth is uncovered!
    image

    What a master manipulator!

    And on that note....

    image
  • KenKen Member Posts: 226
    Gorion had sex with everyone, conclusion of story!
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited October 2012
    I think fans are left to fudge this, as it was an obvious oversight on the part of developers.

    Btw, here is the Forgotten Realms wiki on Gorion for references sake. And here's a repost of the snippet on this subject:
    Before settling down to raise the protagonist (and later Imoen), Gorion had been an active adventurer and Harper. Among other things, he had faced the red dragon Firkraag and emerged at least somewhat victorious, enough so that he survived and Firkraag was left scarred. When he acquired the guardianship of the games' protagonist, he told almost no-one of their heritage; not even to themselves, or to close friends such as Khalid and Jaheira, the two of whom would be staying at the Friendly Arm Inn at the time he was killed and whom he shortly before instructed the protagonist should seek out if they should become separated from him.

    Ulraunt seemed to know, and he never approved of Gorion bringing such a ward to Candlekeep. Only Elminster Aumar really knew in detail, where Gorion keep him informed about his progress, both predicting and speaking about the future Bhaalspawn Crisis over time. In the original Baldur's Gate, Gorion tells the protagonist in a letter (after his death) that they were the child of a woman who was Gorion's friend and one-time lover and who died in childbirth. However, in Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal, the shade of Gorion finally reveals that the protagonist's mother was a priestess of Bhaal who had planned to sacrifice her child with other priestesses and their children in a Bhaal's temple, a fate from which Gorion saved them with a group of Harpers, where he killed his mother and he had to choose the protagonist or Sarevok before fleeing to Candlekeep.
    Gorion was a Harper. And as a Harper he was evidently spying on Bhaal's plot to resurrect himself in his involvement with CHARNAME's mother. I think it would have to essentially be a coincidence that Gorion knew her before she became a priestess of Bhaal, and that Bhaal used CHARNAME's mother to sire a Bhaalspawn.

    Because it doesn't seem very plausible that they would have been lovers after she became pregnant with CHARNAME, right?

    I think we may assume that Alieanna's child is about less than a year old when Gorion rescues his ward-to-be from her sacrifice ritual. (Notwithstanding that it makes no sense whatsoever that Alienna would sacrifice two Bhaalspawn as a priestess of Bhaal; that seems to contradict Bhaal's plot to ressurect himself by siring many mortal progeny who would start wars throughout the Realms.)

    Gorion had to choose between Sarevok and the protagonist when they were both being sacrificed as infants. So we know CHARNAME and Sarevok are the same age. And Sarevok has to be old enough to credibly succeed in his plot to take over the Iron Throne. (His Int is 14 and Cha is 13 in BG, per .cre file; in SoA Int is 17 and Cha is 15.) He is a giant of a man, and a charismatic evil genius. But he still has to be of an age for all those powerful merchants to buy in to his leadership. He eventually replaces them with dopplegangers to complete his plot, as we know. But just to get the ball rolling he'd have to be a young adult of about, say, at least 25? Anyway, the younger he is, the harder the premise is to accept.

    So this set's CHARNAME's age at about that as well, roughly 25 years old.

    In all events, Gorion would have been been involved with Alieanna some time prior to her becoming pregnant with CHARNAME. If Gorion is about in his late sixties in 1372 DR, he would have known Alieanna in his 30's to early 40's or thereabouts.

    The story I would write for this:

    Alieanna was an adventurer when Gorion knew her. He allied her as a Harper, and she worked with him in spying on Bhaal's activities. Alieanna turned to the dark side after she learned of Bhaal's plot in her own investigations, and was seduced by him.

    One way to make sense of her sacrificing Bhaalspawn would be that it is secretly an attempted act of redemption. Another is that she basically went mad. Or better yet, perhaps: both could be true. So she is trying to right her terrible wrong of allowing herself to be used as a vehicle in Bhaal's heinous plot in her dying act. (The ritual sacrifice is a pretense to accomplish this goal, because it actually doesn't make any sense that I can see.)

    This makes her a tragic figure, essentially. It's then a much weightier dramatic moment when Gorion intervenes to save CHARNAME's life.
    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • Syntia13Syntia13 Member Posts: 514
    edited October 2012
    @lemernis
    Nope, at the beginning of BG1PC is 20. The prologue says it very clearly:
    - "You have spent most of your 20 years of life within this keep's walls."
    Also, in ToB when "Gorion's ghost" (a mirage cast by the manipulative Solar, more like) says that PC and 'other babes' were supposed to be sacrificed, but the next second the "baby Sarevok ghost" says: "Some of us used the Chaos to escape, to flee [...] I was there, [...] I fled on my own."

    I refuse to believe an infant, or even a three or four year old child could escape on their own from a hidden, guarded temple in the middle of a hostile raid. He must have been around 7 years at least... IF you believed any of this story, which I don't. (People often said Gorion lied in his letter... well I say that the Solar is lying through its hypothetical teeth and conjuring those images at random. I realize I'm in a minority in this, even if that time inconsistency I mentioned above seems to support this theory ;D )
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