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Dorn redemption?

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  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    kamuizin said:

    And it does. In Hell some of the tear of bhaal options, if taken will automatic turn your alignmet to evil (neutral evil if i'm not wrong), unless if you're already evil.

    That actually happened to my PC and she was Lawful Evil.
    I never quite understood why choosing the wrath option (killing Sarevok again) would change her alignment to Neutral Evil. I didn't see anything particularly chaotic about it.
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 875
    I don't understand the need for "redeeming" all the evil NPCs. Really though, as if good = normal and evil = abnormal. Where is all the good to evil people?
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    edited October 2012
    Xavioria said:

    I don't understand the need for "redeeming" all the evil NPCs. Really though, as if good = normal and evil = abnormal. Where is all the good to evil people?

    Remember the results from this poll? 52% play good and 30% play neutral PCs.

    *Actually, those percentages aren't quite right. All of the percentages only add up to 95% for some reason. Still, evil is definitely in the minority.
  • CommunardCommunard Member Posts: 556
    edited October 2012
    Xavioria said:

    I don't understand the need for "redeeming" all the evil NPCs. Really though, as if good = normal and evil = abnormal. Where is all the good to evil people?

    ...good is normal and evil is abnormal.
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @Vargnatt
    Did your imp familiar disappear too? Mine did, but not the extra HP! Afterward, in ToB, I summoned the dust mephit familiar and got all those extra HP as well. No complaints from me--the dust mephit is the best familiar in ToB, imo.
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    Communard said:

    Xavioria said:

    I don't understand the need for "redeeming" all the evil NPCs. Really though, as if good = normal and evil = abnormal. Where is all the good to evil people?

    ...good is normal and evil is abnormal.
    Good point. IRL, people generally think of their values and beliefs as good, even though another society may judge them as evil. For example, many people from democratic, non-theocratic societies tend to look at a country like Saudi Arabia and see it as evil. However, people from Saudi Arabia tend to look at secularized, liberal democracies and see them as evil.

    IMO, this is one of the reasons why the D&D alignment system is best suited for the game world and not ours.
  • ArkynomiconArkynomicon Member Posts: 52
    Isn't the alignment system originally something DnD swiped from Michael Moorcocks sword and sorcery stories about the war between Law vs Chaos?

    Later on it just kinda evolved in to something else?
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    EErr. good is normal in Faerûn maybe, but here in real life evil or neutral is the normal behavior, that's pretty clear for me at least.

    I'm saying this if the normal concept comes from the common behavior in society.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    kamuizin said:

    EErr. good is normal in Faerûn maybe, but here in real life evil or neutral is the normal behavior, that's pretty clear for me at least.

    I'm with you there. Most people don't seem to understand that "evil" in the alignment system just means you are selfish (neutral evil) and/or controlling (lawful evil).

    Instead, when most people hear "evil" they immediately jump to thinking Chaotic Evil.
  • JackalJackal Member Posts: 10
    He's a Blackguard, there is no redemption for them.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Well, there's a redemption for an evil deathbringer that scrach his way out of hell with his own hands... i don't know if that's a good justify, but i truly hope Dorn keep evil all the way, there's no sense for me in redemption for him, after all we doesn't even know his history past his background.
  • VargnattVargnatt Member Posts: 42
    Mortianna said:

    @Vargnatt
    Did your imp familiar disappear too? Mine did, but not the extra HP! Afterward, in ToB, I summoned the dust mephit familiar and got all those extra HP as well. No complaints from me--the dust mephit is the best familiar in ToB, imo.

    Didn't check the familiar in ToB in that playthrough, sorry. I'll try to find saves and see, thanks ;)
  • fighter_mage_thieffighter_mage_thief Member Posts: 262
    I would like to see some corruption of the good characters.

    How about an evil Khalid? Any takers? LOL
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300

    I would like to see some corruption of the good characters.

    How about an evil Khalid? Any takers? LOL

    And what would make Khalid become evil? He's been neglected by his father, married to jaheira and tortured by Irenicus - and didn't feel like getting even!
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Jaheira is what happened to him, suffice to make anyone become evil :)!
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,498
    Khalid could make an Angel (from Buffy) like reappearance, tortured in the hells, "why didn't you raise me!"
    maybe he could be in thrall of demon, sent to seek revenge on his ex wife, who really abandoned him to Irenicus because of her feelings for the PC.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    Sorry, but after marrying Jaheira and not even considering murder once, I believe Khalid went straight to the Seventh Heaven and will never be seen again, unless you're one the saints and true martyrs who live in that Layer of Heaven :)
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,498
    Khalid definitely needs a rewrite, perhaps a priest of Ilmater?
  • fighter_mage_thieffighter_mage_thief Member Posts: 262
    edited October 2012
    DJKajuru said:

    I would like to see some corruption of the good characters.

    How about an evil Khalid? Any takers? LOL

    And what would make Khalid become evil? He's been neglected by his father, married to jaheira and tortured by Irenicus - and didn't feel like getting even!
    What would make Khalid become evil? Why, the gauntlets of ogre power of course! The power went straight to his head!

    One major difference I've noticed between good Khalid and evil Khalid is that evil Khalid doesn't studder...

    Some of his dialogue has changed too.

    For example, instead of saying, 'If none are better,' he now says 'None are better' like a boss!

    He used to say, "Wha..? *ahem* Yes?" Now he just says "No!"

    I must say, I've got a lot of respect for evil Khalid. ^^
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @Minevese Straight to Chronias, hmm?
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    @LadyRhian Sure the layer of absolute goodness where those purified by suffering are sent after death. It's the obvious place for Khalid's soul after being a true Ilmater believer. Even if he doesn't acknowledge his worshiping in game and Ilmater doesn't live there :)
  • CommunardCommunard Member Posts: 556
    kamuizin said:

    EErr. good is normal in Faerûn maybe, but here in real life evil or neutral is the normal behavior, that's pretty clear for me at least.

    I'm saying this if the normal concept comes from the common behavior in society.

    Most people consider their own actions to be "good" and self-justify even the most selfish of actions. Even psychopaths often have a rationale as to why their actions are "good". Further, in real life the very concept of what is good must be the majority view, because morality is defined by the society we live in (as Mortianna said above).
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    I get your point, but the issue there isn't what i think or other people think or justify for themselfs, i evaluated that based on the consequences of general acts x expected behavior.

    What society expect and dictate isn't what people follow. So based on general society rules, we're most neutral and evil than good.
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @Communard and @kamuizin
    I think the disconnect here is that D&D is based on moral absolutism, whereas our world is better (but not completely) explained by moral relativism. One might be considered Good in one society, yet in another society with completely different ideas about moral and immoral behavior, Evil. Although I do believe there are some objective aspects to D&D alignment that very accurately apply to the "real" world (I once saw this diagram somewhere):

    Nice Person
    |
    |
    |
    Plays by the rules ----------------- Doesn’t play by the rules
    |
    |
    |
    Prick


  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Drows are a good example, D&D give a force to make them evil by putting it in their alignment and by make them worship an evil god, take the alignment label and Lolth from the equation and evaluate drows would be a lot more complex than it is at the moment.
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