Better Single Weapon and Sword and Shield
FinnTheHuman
Member Posts: 404
Ok this is a reoccurring topic, granted, but I thought I'd resurrect it as a new thread.
It seems that dual wielding is the way to go for pretty much any fighter build. Am i mistaken, or does it seem that people mostly use single weapon or sword and shield for RP reasons with fighters? Sure, due to class restrictions, thieves may want to go with single weapon, but for any serious fighter based build dual wielding is almost a given. Am I wrong in this?
it disappoints me that there little reason to select sword and shield, and next to zero reason to select single handed. It seems to me that they should instead cater to different types of fighting style, not worse but different.
So, first, am I wrong in this? Are these styles really preferred alternatives that will enhance certain styles of play? Second, any interesting modifications people have used (or would like to use) to balance out these styles?
It seems that dual wielding is the way to go for pretty much any fighter build. Am i mistaken, or does it seem that people mostly use single weapon or sword and shield for RP reasons with fighters? Sure, due to class restrictions, thieves may want to go with single weapon, but for any serious fighter based build dual wielding is almost a given. Am I wrong in this?
it disappoints me that there little reason to select sword and shield, and next to zero reason to select single handed. It seems to me that they should instead cater to different types of fighting style, not worse but different.
So, first, am I wrong in this? Are these styles really preferred alternatives that will enhance certain styles of play? Second, any interesting modifications people have used (or would like to use) to balance out these styles?
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Comments
The problem with S&S style is not the lack of benefits of wearing a shield, it's the lack of benefits of not having pips in the style. It's very easy to have superlow AC and another -8 vs missile/Piercing even without the style bonuses. S&S style should have added damage reduction or something else to make it more appealing, or alot more AC bonuses but with reduced AC from the actual shields and not just vs missiles. In BG1 even enough kobolds with bows can kill you, but that's only until you get a good base AC using armor, jewelry, head and/or maybe cloak slots. Sooner or later you will have good enough AC that points in S&S is redundant.
Single style isn't bad, it's failry good. I very rarely use it though as in most cases I would rather have the option of switching weapons to adapt to the situation rather than having the bonus from the style (edit2: and here I meant that I'd rather put points into another profíciency than in the style, especially since classes who benefit from this style sadly also get fewer prof points and have to be more picky when choosing).
Shield is obviously the defensive choice; however given that the unmodded game is fairly easy and AC is not a huge factor especially in ToB (due to escalating enemy THAC0s), it's easy to see why people hardly bother.
Single weapon is a bit of an odd one. Since it provides less sustained throughput than dual-wield, its use lies in niche scenarios where using only one weapon is optimal. One such scenario is the already mentioned backstab (only one hit can be a backstab); but there is also (Greater) Whirlwind Attack, which will cap APR at 10 regardless of weapon and is thus more effective with a single weapon.
Overall I do believe that dual-wielding is a bit too powerful. Partly because of the +APR weapons and how they work, but not just because of them. It's also quite true that the weapon style bonuses are mostly unimpressive; even TWF is more of a reduced penalty than an actual bonus. Not very exciting.
Plus it's the coolest option, which counts for something. Dual wielding two weapons of the same length is a ridiculous concept that'll get you laughed out of any fencing club in the country.
Sword and Shield is very much a dump slot for me. I give it to anyone in the backline who can access it since the AC vs. missiles can see some use that way.
yourmods. I cant install it anyway. Maybe in the future when i have more time I'll buy a linux version... I second that about the shields. They should be given some of the best equipping effects. Shield of balduraan is an example, maybe a bad example since its considered cheesy. Also you don't really need any pips in shield to use it correctly.I don't know if this was implementable, but I thought a nice effect would be for shields, something like inproved critical miss for your opponents. So anyone attacking someone with S&S pips gets a critical miss on a 1 or 2.
Something similar with single handed weapon. Critical missess against results in the opponent losing AC points for a round. Justification as such a finess skill makes fighter capitalize on opponents mistakes, sending them off balance.
I guess I can live with just relegating single weapon to a thief duty. I actually wanted to roleplay that swashbuckler from The Princess Bride. The one who wanted revenge on the count. I forget his name but at the end when he finally confronted him he kept saying, "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father prepare to die." I love that scene. *ching*... *ching* *ching* *ching*,
"Stop saying that"
"Offer me money"
"Yes"
"Offer me power too"
"All that I have and more, please"
"Offer me everything I ask for"
"Anything you want"
*Ching* *swish*
"I want my father back you son of a bitch"
Man, went wide there. Anyway, Swashies use two weapon style, but I want some love for the rapier. I suppose I'll move on.
- Two weapon style should keep the way it is with the exception of wearing plate mail armor or better. I can't imagine someone being able to be dexterious enough inside a block of steel. Plate mail or heavier should double TWS penalties to thac0.
- Sword and shield: For each point the character should receive a bonus armor class of -2 and damage reduction of 10% (15% if warrior, as this class tend to use better martial resources), for a total of -4 AC and 30% damage reduction for S&S warriors (and damage reduction should capped at 70 - 75% with barbarians allowed to go for 80 - 85%)
- Two Handed Weapons could be keept the same.
- One weapon style should have a bonus to Thac0 when attacking and not being attacked (after all if you have time to aim without someone on your guts, that attack has a better chance to hit).
Other points in the game are the critical hit immunity on helms that should be dropped to a percentage (and every piece of armor should give critical hit resistance percentage), as well dexterity AC bonus should be limited based on armor.
Well.. here i am again throwing a lot of ideas from my mind!! If the S&S idea get infused on the game i would be happy already!
BUT, things can be different IF we talk about dual class or multi class fighters. And things can also be different IF we talk about soloing or being in a big party.
If you play a fighter dualed or multiclassed into a cleric or a wizard, perhaps the big bonus to AC you can get with shields is better than having one more attack and the goodies the off hand weapon gives you. After all, at low levels being protected is more important than an extra attack, as a single hit can easily defeat you. And, at high levels, your primary mission should be being a spellcaster, not a front line fighter, so getting a higher AC is more important than getting an extra attack.
If you are in a big party, you can be positioned at the second row, so the AC is not as important, but if you are soloing (especially if you have multiclassed or dual classed into a spellcaster) AC becomes far more relevant, as every attack is going to be directed at you, so you want a high AC and good saves and resistances even above getting extra attacks.
As for single weapon, other than the crit chance and for classes who can't use medium/ heavy shields, it was always a handy thing in vanilla to be able to swap loadouts using the quick slots alone. I'm led to believe that bgee has now fixed things here though.
Later games (thinking nwn) gave a strength based bonus to characters using a 1 or 1.5 handed weapon in both hands.
For the record, I agree that TWF is by far the strongest style in BG2 onward, with two-handed and sword and shield being competitive in BG1. It turns out to be really easy to mod the style bonuses, but only within certain limits, which restricts limits modders' ability to fix the imbalance. In particular, APR modifications and damage resistance would be really nice options for modders. You know, in case a dev wants to take on a project.
In my opinion, TWS should have the highest damage per round. Remove that and there's no real appeal to it. Two-handed is actually fine in my opinion. Single Weapon needs some kind of defensive advantage so that there are actually different reasons for picking it over TWS. Sword and Shield is just... meh. It needs to be straight up better.
Two handed weapon: the most balanced style in my opinion, my philosophy here was to make this into the "early game/low investment DPS style". I removed the speed bonus because I think two handed weapons should be the slowest.
0 slot : +2 Speed (a malus)
1 slot : +1 damage +1 critical range
2 slots : +2 damage +1 critical range
That way you get most benefits from the first slot and it is enough to make your fighter effective right from Candlekeep.
Sword and Shield style: shields are from my experience, quite underrated. They are definitely good and doesn't need buffs but the style could use a little something. It's important to note that AC bonuses from styles can improve your AC beyond the base cap of -20 so giving S&S style a bonus to AC was important to make this the "tank style" at every points of the game.
0 slot: nothing.
1 slot: -1 AC -1 modifier against missiles
2 slots: -2 AC -2 modifier against missiles
Honestly it doesn't need more buffs, it's already really good (if not too strong). Getting -3 AC and -3 modifier against missiles for equipping a mundane huge shield at level 1 is huge.
Two Weapons style: here my goal was to keep this style as the "DPS oriented" one while slightly nerfing it and to force players to allocate 3 pips to feel powerful. That way two handed weapons are powerful from the get go for everyone while dualwielding is only powerful with a bigger investment and for low THAC0 characters.
0 slot: -2 damage main hand / -3 off hand, +4 THAC0 main hand / +6 off hand
1 slot: -2 damage main hand / -3 off hand, +2 THAC0 main hand / +4 off hand
2 slots: -2 damage for both hands, +2 THAC0 for both hands (ambidextrous)
3 slots: -1 damage for both hands, +1 THAC0 for both hands
The penalties to main hand, even with 3 slots in both damage and THAC0 prevent dualwielding from being the obvious better choice in every scenario. It is still going to be the best, but only if you are a high level Fighter with good strength, good equipment and invested 3 pips into this style.
Single Weapon Style: I changed this one to become a lot better than the others to compensate for having only one weapon so the numbers can seem a bit high but in practice it's all good. My goal here was to make this style an appealing option for backstabbers and characters with a bad THAC0 who struggle to hit their targets, the AC bonus is gone as I thought it made no sense.
0 slot: -1 THAC0
1 slot: +1 damage -2 THAC0 -2 Speed +1 Critical range
2 slots: +1 damage -4 THAC0 -4 Speed +3 Critical range
That way your Thieves can backstab reliably with a nice bonus to THAC0 and speed. The damage and critical range bonus was mostly implemented to prevent two handed weapons from being too strong at backstabbing.
So far in my runs these changes really turn each styles into a distinct, interesting option with different goals. I only tested this in BG1 but I suppose it would work nicely in BG2 too.
Agree that twf was done more for defensive reasons. It seriously hampers peoples ability to land more than glancing hits.
I'd say twf should incur more thac0 penalties and single weapon/ 2handed style should also give a straight plus 1 or 2 to damage. Presumably the proficiencies could be modded accordingly?