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Did Gorion's ward got such a huge amount of divine essence because......

2

Comments

  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 486
    Calemyr said:

    My theory (as I mentioned in the Scion of Murder thread) is that the reason you're a badass among Bhaalspawn is not due to the amount of essence you inherited, but the amount of death you've immersed yourself in.

    Enter the Halfling Bhaalspawn:


  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 486

    TStael said:

    I perso always thought the Slayer-form having been result from Irenicus' manipulations, where his evil amplified the darkness of player characters heritage.

    But let's face it: Bhaal must have been first-rate shapeshifter for having been able to copulate with anything in-between humans and dragons! :-p Maybe a lucky roll of paternal heritage?

    He was a god. Gods can choose whatever form they like, even when forced to walk on Toril.
    I just hope for the sake of those poor devotees he had that he changed out of his Fire Giant form before impregnating a human woman.

    ArtonaMontresor_SPKrotosKhalDrogo
  • Montresor_SPMontresor_SP Member Posts: 1,723
    Yulaw9460 said:

    TStael said:

    I perso always thought the Slayer-form having been result from Irenicus' manipulations, where his evil amplified the darkness of player characters heritage.

    But let's face it: Bhaal must have been first-rate shapeshifter for having been able to copulate with anything in-between humans and dragons! :-p Maybe a lucky roll of paternal heritage?

    He was a god. Gods can choose whatever form they like, even when forced to walk on Toril.
    I just hope for the sake of those poor devotees he had that he changed out of his Fire Giant form before impregnating a human woman.
    Otherwise it would be counter-productive if he wanted to get them pregnant. :wink:

  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 486

    Yulaw9460 said:

    TStael said:

    I perso always thought the Slayer-form having been result from Irenicus' manipulations, where his evil amplified the darkness of player characters heritage.

    But let's face it: Bhaal must have been first-rate shapeshifter for having been able to copulate with anything in-between humans and dragons! :-p Maybe a lucky roll of paternal heritage?

    He was a god. Gods can choose whatever form they like, even when forced to walk on Toril.
    I just hope for the sake of those poor devotees he had that he changed out of his Fire Giant form before impregnating a human woman.
    Otherwise it would be counter-productive if he wanted to get them pregnant. :wink:
    From what I've understood, it's his divine spark (or whatever the kids call it these days) he passes on. The form of his mortal vessel should be somewhat secondary. Allthough, for practical reasons, he would probably shapeshift to make the exchange less... I don't really know the right word here? Ouchy?

    Which reminds me of Chinchilla the Bhaalspawn... poor Chinchillas mom.

    Montresor_SP
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,520
    edited May 2016
    Yulaw9460 said:

    I just hope for the sake of those poor devotees he had that he changed out of his Fire Giant form before impregnating a human woman.

    OH, GOD! THE IMAGES!

    Yulaw9460 said:

    Otherwise it would be counter-productive if he wanted to get them pregnant. :wink:

    From what I've understood, it's his divine spark (or whatever the kids call it these days) he passes on. The form of his mortal vessel should be somewhat secondary. Allthough, for practical reasons, he would probably shapeshift to make the exchange less... I don't really know the right word here? Ouchy?Biologically feasible?

    The way D&D deities are typically portrayed is that they can (and do) choose a "standard" form, but they also have the ability to choose any form they wish. Some deities actually have switched between male and female forms several time throughout their time of godhood. Deities can also manifest avatars, which are like extensions of themselves on Toril.


  • CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 202
    Yeah. Divinity in the Realms is about belief, and the key to survival for a god is branding. You want to have a recognizable avatar, something your minions followers can carve into stone in front of a temple or above the altar. For Bhaal, I think that's the Slayer.

    The humanoid-ish forms he took to spread his spark were simply used for procreation, so it's probable that it was mostly human (a lot of half-human species in the Realm), but otherwise whatever worked.

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,520
    Calemyr said:

    Yeah. Divinity in the Realms is about belief, and the key to survival for a god is branding. You want to have a recognizable avatar, something your minions followers can carve into stone in front of a temple or above the altar. For Bhaal, I think that's the Slayer.

    The humanoid-ish forms he took to spread his spark were simply used for procreation, so it's probable that it was mostly human (a lot of half-human species in the Realm), but otherwise whatever worked.

    All I know is...that guy got really horny. Seriously.

  • marzbarzmarzbarz Member Posts: 183

    adormitul said:

    But can you become as strong as a god without being one if not stronger? Not as a primordial or a elder devil but as mortal be it a very long lived one like a elf or a dragon but mortal.

    In theory. However, you wouldn't be able to grant divine spells or bless/curse worshipers or do any of the things gods do.

    So no crazy god of murder blood orgies? Damn...

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,520

    adormitul said:

    But can you become as strong as a god without being one if not stronger? Not as a primordial or a elder devil but as mortal be it a very long lived one like a elf or a dragon but mortal.

    In theory. However, you wouldn't be able to grant divine spells or bless/curse worshipers or do any of the things gods do.
    To expand on this, the "in theory" part would likely involve gathering power for hundreds of years. You'd basically have to become someone on the level of Vecna ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vecna#Description ) shortly before he became a god, for example.
    marzbarz said:

    So no crazy god of murder blood orgies? Damn...

    Nope. I mean, you can still have murder orgies.

    Or even just orgies...because: KINKY!

    marzbarzKhalDrogo
  • OnestepOnestep Member Posts: 223
    I'm not entirely sure the player got any more Bhaal essence than any other Bhaalspawn.

    Bhaal essence simply manifests itself differently in each Bhaalspawn, ranging from teleportation, to a number of useful abilities, to stat increases.

    The Slayer thing was unique to CHARNAME, because he literally had his soul removed. He was effectively running on the Bhaal essence, and far more in tune with it because of that.

    In Ascension, Imoen can be turned into a Slayer as well, but that's something Amellysan forced.

  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 486

    Biologically feasible?

    The way D&D deities are typically portrayed is that they can (and do) choose a "standard" form, but they also have the ability to choose any form they wish. Some deities actually have switched between male and female forms several time throughout their time of godhood. Deities can also manifest avatars, which are like extensions of themselves on Toril.


    Yeah, but I suppose the standard generic "Human" (I've never seen him depicted as anything else anyway) form would suffice for most species. I guess he wouldn't even have to switch into "Dwarven-Male"-form to impregnate a Dwarven Female. As far as I understand, The Children inherited those traits from the mother anyway. Or?

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,520
    edited May 2016
    Yulaw9460 said:

    Yeah, but I suppose the standard generic "Human" (I've never seen him depicted as anything else anyway) form would suffice for most species. I guess he wouldn't even have to switch into "Dwarven-Male"-form to impregnate a Dwarven Female. As far as I understand, The Children inherited those traits from the mother anyway. Or?

    Yeah, definitely. However, impregnating a dragon may have required switching to the form of a dragon. And I assume a Fire Giant wouldn't mate with a "tiny human".

  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 486

    Yulaw9460 said:

    Yeah, but I suppose the standard generic "Human" (I've never seen him depicted as anything else anyway) form would suffice for most species. I guess he wouldn't even have to switch into "Dwarven-Male"-form to impregnate a Dwarven Female. As far as I understand, The Children inherited those traits from the mother anyway. Or?

    Yeah, definitely. However, impregnating a dragon may have required switching to the form of a dragon. And I assume a Fire Giant wouldn't mate with a "tiny human".

    Huh. If he revealed it to them, I figured pretty much any female would jump at the opportunity, so to speak. Particularly someone of the "Fire Giant"-type alignment. No matter his race.

  • OnestepOnestep Member Posts: 223
    I'm pretty sure he just shapeshifted into whatever race was appropriate.

    Or in some cases, perhaps that race shapeshifted into another? Dragons are natural shapeshifters, for example.

  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    Yeh I assumed the characters essence gets stronger like it gets absorbed or the essence gets divided among fewer as each one dies meaning more power for the remaining. The slayer is a result of having no soul to suppress the taint. Like in BG1 good or evil the dreams show you refusing to kill or choosing to kill with your own tools. When your soul is nabbed there's nothing to suppress the taint anymore so it can then take control.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Calemyr said:

    My theory (as I mentioned in the Scion of Murder thread) is that the reason you're a badass among Bhaalspawn is not due to the amount of essence you inherited, but the amount of death you've immersed yourself in. Until Carbos and his cousin try to take your life, you've been isolated and kept away from death as a rule (with the exception of rats). Afterwards, murder just kinda becomes your life. Two people try to kill you, forcing you to kill them right back, then someone kills your foster father, then virtually everything in the world wants to kill you, from bears and wolves, to goblins and bounty hunters. Whether you're good or bad, heroic or villainous, you feed your divine essence with murder constantly as you kill everything from bandits and gnolls to ankhegs and wolfweres. By the time you're toe-to-toe with the Six, you've easily killed as many as any of them simply by being a hero.

    In other words, Sarevok's whole scheme? Mass death on a broad scale with him walking through the middle of it to become the heir apparent to Bhaal's legacy? Yeah, you do that on accident, just in order to survive, and it's Sarevok that makes it happen.

    The divine essence is only shunted back to the throne once the Bhaalspawn dies. The Solar makes that part pretty clear, I felt, as she offers both you and Imoen the chance to be rid of it and Imoen can't say yes fast enough.

    This seems most plausible. In D&D, and especially in the Forgotten Realms, anything you can link to a deity's portfolio, even in a highly metaphorical sense, can be a boon to divine essence. It's a tangible source of power Bhaalspawn can use and feed. Sarevok's sword flavor text even says his gear was enchanted specifically to amplify this effect, both dealing out death - enhancing his ability to Deathbringer Assault people beyond even his normal training in that art - and in feeding on murder and death. I don't recall the exact wording, but that's the impression the Sword of Chaos +2 gave me, that it and his armor worked in concert to enhance his Bhaalspawn power.

  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 384
    Onestep said:


    The Slayer thing was unique to CHARNAME, because he literally had his soul removed. He was effectively running on the Bhaal essence, and far more in tune with it because of that.

    The one thing I'm still confused regarding Irenicus's experiments is that wasn't he trying to extract the Bhaal essence from CHARNAME and Imoen to power his and Bodhi's needs? I still can't get my head around the whole thing about extracting CHARNAME's "soul" - what does that even mean? Isn't his soul tied to Bhaal's essence? So wouldn't extracting his soul extract the essence too, thus making CHARNAME no more than a mere mortal stripped of his divine blood? So how does that fit in the whole Slayer explanation?

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,802
    @johntyl The way I interpret it, is that the divines essence WAS tied to charname's soul, along with the larger part of themself. The reason charname goes slayer crazy is because without their soul much of their will is gone, and even though the essence is gone, charname has lived with that killing instinct for so long that it threatens to overwhelm them. Thus, the slayer.

    johntyl
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 384
    @ThacoBell that's a valid way of interpreting it. So in that sense, what's left in Charname is the remnants of Bhaal's essence, which without the 'soul' of Charname - of for example if you are playing a lawful good Paladin, there is nothing to counteract the inner taint. Makes sense, thank you! :)

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,802
    You're welcom :) I do WAY too much thinking about these games.

  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,671
    This may have been mentioned already, but given that scene in ToB where Solar reveals that Sarevok and Charname's roles could have easily been reversed, I am pretty sure that Charname doesn't necessarily have more essence than other Bhaalspawn, but instead just happened to be at the right (wrong) place at the right (wrong) time repeatedly.

    What could be the case though, is that a Bhaalspawn becomes more powerful the more people they kill. And both Charname, Sarevok and the Five all killed a looooooot of people. And they possibly get even stronger when specifically killing other Bhaalspawn.

    But I personally prefer my random happenstance theory, because it's more in the vain of Dungeons & Dragons being a game of chance.

    ThacoBellDragonspear
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,450
    Bhaal shapechanging to impregnate women, why?

    In classical litrature we have Gods as a "shower of Gold", a "Swan", a "bull"(?), sure there are others but my classics are severely lacking.

    We also have a very popular myth around a "a virgin birth".

    Seems to me that if you accept Bhaal was a God, pretty much anything goes, including the possibility that he could swap out a normal embryo for one created with his God essence.

    Aliana says that Bhaal came and "whispered in her ear", well, far as I know that isn't where you put it if you want a baby. :D

    Buttercheese
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,671
    Yeah, it is never really made clear just how exactly the Bhaalspawn where conceived. For all we know he may have run around and simply infused already pregnant women with his essence or pulled an Arch-Angel Gabriel. It's never actually proven that he has physical sex with the mothers or even rapes them.

    It may even be a mix of methods. Like maybe he played lay-on-hands with some mothers and with others he actually did the do. Who knows (some of the writers, probably, but will they ever tell >.>)

    UnderstandMouseMagic
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,450
    edited December 3
    Did Gorion's ward have more essence?

    I think the important fact here is the title, "Gorion's Ward".
    That is in the prophecy from Allundro (sp), the Harpers and all in Candlekeep must have been aware of it, it's not a secret.

    I simply don't buy the "former lover of Gorion just so happens to be a high priestess of Bhaal". How convenient.
    In TOB when the Solar callls Aliana, there is no acknowledgement from her of Gorion other than to accuse him of murder.
    Also Solar has already pointed out that Sarevok could have been in your place.

    My take on it is that it's the prophecy that imbues charname with extra power, and that any Bhaalspawn would have been granted those powers had they been taken by Gorion.
    Isn't thare some dialog that actually says that if Gorion takes you, no other can be taken?
    Why on earth not?
    Rescuing kids from a murder temple, some of them capable of walking, you would shepherd as many as possible to safety surely?

    The Harper's know the prophecy, the raid on the temple was to acquire a "Gorion's ward", they sort out entry to Candlekeep, their end game is to have a stake, a pawn in the running for Godhood.

    tbone1ThacoBell
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,346
    I think it involved a gazebo, a hyperchicken, and some sleight of hand

    ButtercheeseThacoBellDragonspear
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,671
    Honestly, even after over a dozen complete playthroughs, I do not remember ever being pointed out that Charname is from the get-go more powerful than other Bhaalspawn or that they have more essence than others.

    All I recall are some fanfictions (and maybe mods) saying stuff in that direction, but that can hardly be considered canon.

    tbone1ThacoBell
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,450

    Honestly, even after over a dozen complete playthroughs, I do not remember ever being pointed out that Charname is from the get-go more powerful than other Bhaalspawn or that they have more essence than others.

    All I recall are some fanfictions (and maybe mods) saying stuff in that direction, but that can hardly be considered canon.

    I think it's more about being the "chosen one", not so much straightforward power.
    If the prophecy has to come true (and that's the thing about prophecies, they are telling what the future will hold, no if's or but's) but there can be some twisting of meaning on the way,

    "Macbeth shall never vanquish'd be until
    Great Birnam Wood to high Dunsinane Hill
    Shall come against him"

    Now we all go, "are you kidding me, pretty sure that wasn't what was meant" but prophecy's work like that. Macbeth was vanquished, Oedipus did kill his father and marry his mother.
    They might not have wanted any of it but it's about being trapped in your fate and it's all been written long before you were born.

    Allundro was a servant of the Gods, Solar tells you this.
    He writes that it is Gorion's ward who can stop the Bhaalspawn.
    Gorion's ward would have got to that point IMO whether he fought or ran away and hid.
    And that's power because "the fates" will ensure GW survives to that point.

    ThacoBelltbone1
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,671

    He writes that it is Gorion's ward who can stop the Bhaalspawn.

    No, he doesn't. The prophecy is "The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos will be sewn from their passage." At no point is there a word of a chosen one or Gorion's ward. Just that Bhaal will have mortal children and that they will cause a noteworthy amout of chaos. It just happened that Charname and the Five where the most noteworthy and chaos-causing children in "the end". (Actually, the very end has Abdel Adrian and Viekang killing each other roughly one hundret years later, resulting in Bhaal to rise again, as discribed in Murder in Baldur's Gate.)

    tbone1
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,802

    He writes that it is Gorion's ward who can stop the Bhaalspawn.

    No, he doesn't. The prophecy is "The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos will be sewn from their passage." At no point is there a word of a chosen one or Gorion's ward. Just that Bhaal will have mortal children and that they will cause a noteworthy amout of chaos. It just happened that Charname and the Five where the most noteworthy and chaos-causing children in "the end". (Actually, the very end has Abdel Adrian and Viekang killing each other roughly one hundret years later, resulting in Bhaal to rise again, as discribed in Murder in Baldur's Gate.)
    If I recall correctly, (which I may not be) I think this is one of the things that ToB retconned.

  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,671
    If you mean the prophecy, then no, that has been part of the series from the first area.

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