Me, my sister and my love
Moonheart
Member Posts: 520
DISCLAIMER: this thread is a purely theorical and rhetorical discussion. I have no need for answers to know what I want to play... and just open the topic for the pleasure to exchange argument and see ideas of others. There is not good or bad answers, only how each players see thing.
So I hope nobody will get offended by the idea of views of others, even on their own ideas
~ Me, my sister and my love ~
I often think that 6 characters in a party is a lot too much in that game.
- First, most of the places are too narrow to make the 6 move efficiently together, leading to weird situation where one go a complete other way than other, or get stuck and need to be called a second time to the destination
- Second, in terms of difficulty or party needs, there is nothing justifying you to need 6 characters. This game can be soloed. One is enough, two is fine, three is almost already a crowd
- Thirs, in terms of scenarii, there is only 3 characters that matter: the protagonist, Imoen, and the love interest of the protagonist. Other can bring flavor with some banter, but do not truly change much to all the game
So, the question is: what would be the most balanced, well-rounded, party of 3 characters with the CHARNAME, Imoen and Love, for you?
For the context, I'll speak only of BG2EE vanilla, without any mod, because it is the msot common ground. Romance mods, BG1 and CSS are out of topic.
Here is a bit how I'll make such a trio:
1- Imoen is the common ground, she's a mage/thief able to satisfy all the thievery needs, and perhaps the arcane magic needs to. Which means that thieves and mage are unlikely to be what would be selected as the love interest or protagonist
2- Love interests are only a few: Viconia, Jaheira, Aeria, Neera, Hexxat, Amoen, Dorn and Rasaad
Neera is a truly special case I will only use if I decide to do a "joke" rune. Hexxat is uneeded with Imoen abord. And I see no good reason to bring Dorn with you if you know how to use Rasaad.
3- Protagonist can be anything. So he's the one to complete what the two other can't do.
Now, a balanced party needs:
- a thief => Imoen will do this
- a healer
- a fontliner
- a mage
There is no love interest that perform correcly two roles at once, except perhaps Aerie. Jaheira or Amoen could try to be healer and frontliner.... they will lack both Rasaad's magic resistance and damage potential
So there are three ways to do the four roles with only three characters:
- Imoen is the only mage of the party
- Aerie is the love interest
- CHARNAME is multi/dual classed C/M or F/M
Out of the three, the funiest idea I have is to build a triple muli/dual classed mage trio: a dual classed kensai/berzerker => mage, Aerie and Imoen
All the three use arcane magic, all the three for different purpose, sharing the scrolls:
- CHARNAME take the buffs scrolls (Mirror Image, Stoneskin, etc)
- Aerie the attack scrolls (Direct damage, summons)
- Imoen the debuff scrolls (True Sight, Breach, Pierce Magic)
So I hope nobody will get offended by the idea of views of others, even on their own ideas
~ Me, my sister and my love ~
I often think that 6 characters in a party is a lot too much in that game.
- First, most of the places are too narrow to make the 6 move efficiently together, leading to weird situation where one go a complete other way than other, or get stuck and need to be called a second time to the destination
- Second, in terms of difficulty or party needs, there is nothing justifying you to need 6 characters. This game can be soloed. One is enough, two is fine, three is almost already a crowd
- Thirs, in terms of scenarii, there is only 3 characters that matter: the protagonist, Imoen, and the love interest of the protagonist. Other can bring flavor with some banter, but do not truly change much to all the game
So, the question is: what would be the most balanced, well-rounded, party of 3 characters with the CHARNAME, Imoen and Love, for you?
For the context, I'll speak only of BG2EE vanilla, without any mod, because it is the msot common ground. Romance mods, BG1 and CSS are out of topic.
Here is a bit how I'll make such a trio:
1- Imoen is the common ground, she's a mage/thief able to satisfy all the thievery needs, and perhaps the arcane magic needs to. Which means that thieves and mage are unlikely to be what would be selected as the love interest or protagonist
2- Love interests are only a few: Viconia, Jaheira, Aeria, Neera, Hexxat, Amoen, Dorn and Rasaad
Neera is a truly special case I will only use if I decide to do a "joke" rune. Hexxat is uneeded with Imoen abord. And I see no good reason to bring Dorn with you if you know how to use Rasaad.
3- Protagonist can be anything. So he's the one to complete what the two other can't do.
Now, a balanced party needs:
- a thief => Imoen will do this
- a healer
- a fontliner
- a mage
There is no love interest that perform correcly two roles at once, except perhaps Aerie. Jaheira or Amoen could try to be healer and frontliner.... they will lack both Rasaad's magic resistance and damage potential
So there are three ways to do the four roles with only three characters:
- Imoen is the only mage of the party
- Aerie is the love interest
- CHARNAME is multi/dual classed C/M or F/M
Out of the three, the funiest idea I have is to build a triple muli/dual classed mage trio: a dual classed kensai/berzerker => mage, Aerie and Imoen
All the three use arcane magic, all the three for different purpose, sharing the scrolls:
- CHARNAME take the buffs scrolls (Mirror Image, Stoneskin, etc)
- Aerie the attack scrolls (Direct damage, summons)
- Imoen the debuff scrolls (True Sight, Breach, Pierce Magic)
5
Comments
Personally, I would also prefer a multi-class fighter/mage (probably gnome F/I for extra spells and saving throws) to a the dual-class character. With only three characters you will still reach level 9 spells in an acceptable amount of time and then having access to both HLA pools will help you more. Use Critical Strike instead of Improved Whirlwind.
If you are dualing, definetely pick the Berzerker over the Kensai.
Finally, I forgot to say that I totally disagree with the premise of the post. While there are dungeons on BG 1 which make a fully party painful (Firewine) I never had much trouble with a full party in most of the first and all of the second game. I strongly prefer having six characters to modern Bioware RPGs which often limit you to 3-4.
Aerie > Tank.
Anomen > DD. You got both magic, thieving, healing and tanking covered, so go for maximum damage output.
Dorn > Cleric/ Mage or Cleric/ something else.
Hexxat > Tank Cleric or Cleric/ Fighter.
Jaheira > Fighter/ Mage probably or a balance between a Tank/DD, either way melee over ranged.
Neera > Tank Cleric or Cleric/ Fighter.
Rasaad > Cleric/Fighter Tank.
Viconia > Tank.
In my current party, I use both Rasaad and Jaheira and just started the chapter 7
- APR: both tied to 4 natural APR
- Dmg/hit : Jaheira has 19, Rasaad 22,5 using the same str item. Rasaad will still improve with levels, Jaheira is now capped
- THAC0: Jaheira has -1, Rasaad -12, Rasaad and Jaheira will still improve, but Rasaad will improve faster due to being single-classed
- GWW: Rasaad has 2 more use of it than Jaheira currently
Now, about defense:
- Jaheira has an AC of -8, which is almost capped. Rasaad has -12 and will still improve with level
- Rasaad has also all his saves about 5 points better than Jaheira's, and they will still progress faster (single classed)
- Rasaad has will have ultimately 98% of magic resistance
So.... Rasaad do more damage, has more physical defense, better saves and feature an amazing natural spell defense while Jaheira has... Iron Skin, a spell you almost never can renew during fight if she's the only frontliner, because she will get interrupted (Iron Skin takes ways longer to cast then Stone Skin)
Even if Jaheira has some other perks, she's not a frontliner of the level of Rasaad to my eyes Could be fun
Aerie perhaps...? Hopefuly, I did not forgot to say that the context was BG2.
Slot 2
}- Anything, it doenst matter you're a sorcerer
Slot 3
(My recommendation would be to take Yoshimo, since he's pretty much designed to fill in for Imoen until you get her back.)
I'd say the choice of romance and alt-Imoen is largely dependent on your Charname. If you happen to be playing a thief, then you don't need to replace Imoen with a thief. If you happen to be playing a spellcaster, you don't need to replace her with a mage. If you happen to be playing a mage/thief, you don't need to replace her at all, no matter who you're romancing.
Quickly, someone make a mod!
I said "love interest" and "no mod"
But @Dee recommandation to take Yoshimo as a replacement until you free her makes sense, it's what we are mostly supposed to do to get the full story line
If we accept some unbalance in the party, the most sacrifiable role is cleric, IMHO. We can have one regeneration item for each of the three of the trio anyway
On this basis... mmm.... I'll make a female sorcerer and take Rasaad as the frontline. Or a male monk charname, and take Neera for spellcasting... but it's slightly more dangerous!
Aerie can tank... if you are ready to spend a lot of time buffing. Mixing a lot of caster-only arcane buff and cleric buffs can turn anyone into a true wall of magical wards.
Like all Fighters except Fighter/Druids, Anomen is not a bad DD if you hand him the Crom Fraeyr, Belm and the Gauntlet of Extraodinary Weapon Specialization. You just need to cast Improved Haste on him at the start of each fight... but this is only after the first half of SoA.
The main reason is simple: the frontliner is the character of the party that get the greatest amount of enemy spells in his face, and Rasaad feature by the chapter 6 a 100% magic resistance, which make him immune to all spells safe for an occasional Imprisonment.
The only other companion that can do this is Viconia, but her damage potential doesn't even compare to the one of Rasaad, which reach 4 APR, a 19-38 damage base, and has access to GWW (my Rasaad actualy have 16 of them)
And what else?
All other companion pains to reach an AC of -10, my Rasaad has actualy -17, making him actualy the only companion able to truly tank the foes of ToB.
If you like stealing like a maniac, for example, then you'll have more than enough healing thanks to potions and items like the rod of resurrection. Summoned minions are ideal meat shields, and they come in various shapes and flavors. Using items tactically like unleashing multiple lightning bolts from a Lightning Wand in a small room can potentially cause far more devastation than a lot of things you can name.
At some point, classes and class functions (healer/DD/tank/etc) start to blur until all that really matters is options. Each NPC gives you options, and making the ideal party is all about finding ways to make the best out of those options by focusing on particular strengths (XP gain, spellcasting, warrior abilities/HLAs, etc), building on synergies or some combination of both.
If you know where to get them, you can get enough regeneration items quickly for your trio that you will always recover your full hp when resting.... and honestly, to my eyes, it's the only things that matters if you know how to avoid to be hit by level drain
So you can simply run with a thief/mage/warrior if you want, which simplify things.
Under this configuration, I'll probably do one of those choices:
- Rasaad + female mage/sorcerer protagonist
- Neera + male monk/blademaster protagonist
One of your choices for your PC is something that preferably can melee (a front liner although not necessarily a tank) - you need someone that can do melee damage in order to end all those pesky fights in a satisfactory manner.
There are pro/cons for each but here is my selections:
kensai > mage dualed at 7 or 9 - but the biggest problem is the down time with a few cheesy ways to level up quickly - of course this the problem with all fighter kits dualed to a mage.
The other choice for a small party is my preferred choice: fighter/mage multi - race depends on who you want to romance but a half-elf works with anyone. There is no down time and you can attack with sword or spells as needed in addition to buffing as required.
With a small party you might even go triple fighter/mage/thief - which is a good class to try - it covers everything you need and there is no real need for a third member during chapter 2 unless you want extra company.
The f/m/t - will level a bit more slowly compared to everyone else but with a small party this hardly matters - of course with Imoen later you might want to specialize in different thieving skills just for diversity.
On the other hand the f/m/c - is all about arcane and divine power and the occasional hammer toss or a smash with a quarter staff. The only real issue is the slow leveling up due to 2 caster classes - Aerie as a c/m levels a bit slower than anyone else on the team almost but again with a 3 member party xp is not an issue.
Either triple class works and with a f/m/c you don't have to worry about bringing a cleric for buffs - that means your romance can be anyone you like.
Of course with a multiclass (2 classes) PC and two other party members you will reach level cap pretty quickly before chapter 5 probably.
The question is how versatile you want to be as the PC ? Do you want to melee more or use more spells or perhaps a balance between the two.
During chapter 2 regardless of what type of PC you are - you might want to bring a third until then end of chapter 3 - your choice - and really depends on what you are - as someone said Yoshimo is always useful and you can keep him easily until you pick up Imoen.
The various combination for chapter 2 is a lot and you know them but some will be more powerful to a degree than other combinations.
1) a berserker or kensai>mage with Aerie (romance) and Yoshimo - covers everything - Aerie can even tank (with the right gear) if you want her and with that certain cleric spell she can easily hold her own in melee battle. With Aerie as your cleric you have divine power and as a back up mage that can blast or debuff and summon wrecking havok on all the monsters. Give her the staff of the magi as she is a bit more squishy for those fights that don't need her to hulk into a tank. Yoshimo of course is your thief and with traps - a lot of difficult fights made easier with his traps even without metagaming there are a few instances where you can naturally trap for the best success (umar hills and the shadow dragon).
2) any multi/dual class - with Jaheria and #3NPC - Jaheria equipped properly makes a good tank easily reaching -9 AC during chapter 2 - get her the shield that stops confusion and holds - and she will be your tank and mage killer quite easily. As you enter an area just cast iron skins so you don't have to worry about it for the rest of the day - she makes all those annoying encounters with mages/spell throwers that much easier to deal with + she can easily melee (give her the scimitar with the +1 apr) and she will plow through most monsters. As she levels up with fighter levels her Thac0 will get better and she will easily melee any one you want.
3) any double or triple class with Dorn or Rassad (as romance) and #3 NPC - as you will be more melee in this run - you might prefer to be a mage or cleric multiclass with a third NPC being someone that fills up the deficit of whatever multiclass you are. Dorn has some unique blackguard abilities which are fun to use and he is immune to level drain (a plus) with his special sword he can really kick butt - of course you will play him as evil as you have no other really better choice in the matter. Rassad on the other hand will only get more powerful as the game progresses but if you start at level 7/8 at the start of BG2 then Rassad will also be that level and he will not be as powerful as you would like your only melee fighter to be. His temporary weakness can be dealt with as long as you know how to handle a monk and you have a third individual to help with melee in some way with either fighting or spells. Rassad can also sneak and moves so quickly that he can get himself out of trouble. Bring Yoshimo/Jan to tackle traps if you don't want to be a thief.
4) A multiclass or dual (fighter/mage) with Viconia or Anomen - as they are cleric - no worries about being one yourself. Focus on arcane and melee power to end encounters as soon as possible. With the right gear both Vic and Anomen can tank quite easily and being single classed means they level faster and get greater high level cleric spells faster - which is always good. Anomen kicks butt at higher levels easily destroying undead; on the other hand with the right gear/spells Vic can have almost 100% MR (if not more) and that makes her your mage killer - no spells of any kind will stop her from attacking or casting unless she really fails a roll. For me at least Viconia is less annoying than Anomen so she is my first choice of clerics.
5) A sorcerer PC works with any of the above romance and a thief for your third member - if you want to be a single class - probably the only single class you would want to be in a small party. Of course being a sorcerer means you will be arcane heavy instead but it is a nice balance as Imoen will use the spells you cannot. Use wands liberally during chapter 2 to end encounters as quick as possible as they are really in abundance here as well. As a sorcerer you might want your romance to be able to melee but then again with the right spell and gear any of the them can melee quite well so no real worries about who to bring as a sorcerer.
In a small party having everyone multiclass is probably the way to go - you get the skills and power you need to tackle all encounters and with a small party no worries about xp.
Dorn can be a very good tank, he can wield Soul Reaver (which is a real point: Debuffing the enemy thac0 by 2 points per hit basically makes any enemy fighter a joke after one round with GWW), he has good damage (Poison weapon, even nerfed, 25STR etc...), and Aura of Despair is a pretty insane debuff.
I am not saying that Rasaad is bad, but Dorn certainly is just as good.
Even with the Soul Reaver in hand, Dorn is completly unable to tank 4 Fire Giants, simply because the Soul Reaver only debuff one of them, and he gets turned into pulp by the 3 others. I tried to switch his target after each hit, that doesn't change anything. Too slow to debuff them all.
Rasaad, on the other side, with his superior AC (-17 but I did some mistakes: he should have -19) can tank the 4 long enough to have the other member screw them safely from range with missile weapons, and he will kill 2 or 3 of them by himself anyway
Then, there is the other problem: a tank does not just tank physical attacks in BG2, he has to tank spells too, as the NPC target usualy the closest of their opponents.
Dorn has absolutely NO magic defense, safe for anti level-drain that any tank can have with a buff of your cleric or an item.... while Rasaad can and will have 100% magic resistance, meaning that safe for an occasional Lower Resistance or Imprisonment, he will just soak all the harmful magic
There is the Cloak of Mirroring that can help Dorn... but why sacrifice this powerful item for your tank when you can have a tank that just shrug at magic entierly?
The Cloak of Mirroring also only protects against damage spell anyway, and do nothing against crowd control spells who are even more dangerous
And finaly... I believe that Rasaad do more damage than Dorn, too
Give him Roranach's Horn, Hardiness and Armor of faith spell: They won't deal any physical damage to him
Give him Red Dragon Armor and a ring of fire resistance: they won't deal any fire damage to him.
Rasaad may block the fire damage and 40% of their physical damage, but nothing more, and his AC will never be enough to mitigate even half of the damage given how low their Thac0 is.
As a physical damage tank, you will find that none does as good as a character that has access to armor of faith, hardiness and Defender of Easthaven (besides a mage using protection spells but these need more management), unless you push AC very very low, and by "very very low" I mean "below -30 effective AC against the type of weapon you face".
Concerning magic resistance, Rasaad rules, that makes no doubt, though cloak of mirroring and chaotic command buff will get Dorn close enough.
1- What he can do without our support, just letting the IA control it
Within this paradigm, Dorn is a really poor tank, while Rasaad is the best tank of BG2.
Simply put Rasaad come with the best stats, and punch like a god, and the only thing you need for that is to ensure he get a decent level
2- What he can do with buffs and item swapping
Within this paradigm, I fully agree with you that Dorn is as good as Rasaad.
However, within this paradigm, both are vastly inferior to Aerie or Haer'Dalis, two characters that have the ability to stack defensive buffs like madmen, rendering what you can do with martial abilities pale in comparaison
That's why earlier, I talked about trio Imoen + Neera + male monk/blademaster protagonist
The monk and the blademaster are both, to my eyes, the summit of the two way of tanking: with and without buffs.
Dorn is good, I agree, but he is the summit of none of the two ways.
I really don't understand why one would not use Fire/Crushing resistance gear when going to the Marching Mountains. Even roleplay-wise, it makes sense since you have already met Fire Giants and you are going to Yaga-Shura's -a Fire Giant- place.
Besides, I tend to favor undispellable tankiness (Reached with hardiness and gear) over dispellable/Breachable one.
And since you are talking about buffless tanking, please show me how Rasaad tanks 4 fire giants, with his sorry excuse for an HP pool and 0 innate or equippable resistance to physical damage. As I said, there is no way he can reach the AC required to tank Fire Giants and their -12ish Thac0 (not too sure about the exact number). I already doubt he may tank them even with buffs.
My Rasaad last easily long enough at close range with 4 of them to allow my team to kill them all. He takes somes damage, but he survive the encounter.
Neverless, the point to use no buff is not a matter of difficulty, but realism to me.
You are not supposed to know what opponents you will face before you seen them coming, safe for a few special case. So it always felt wrong to me to switch items or cast specific buffs even before the start of and encounter.
I agree that it is only my way to see the game, so, yes, you are right Dorn is a perfectly fine tank for other ways to play it.
I just feel that most people think that game is too easy, needed to install SCS because they just do too much foreseeing. BG2 is not that a easy game when you have no clue of what powers/caacteristics/immunity the next opponent will have.
If I can put it that way: Dorn is a good tank for experienced players that know that the -50% crushing helmet is to be kept and not sold, while Rasaad is a good tank for average players that do not know what they will face in the "next chapter" of the game
But then again, it's up to the way we see the game.
What I mean is that Dorn CAN tank physical damage way better than Rasaad, it's not deniable, figures say as much. What you do with this information is up to you.
Now, I have already agreed that Dorn can tank physical damage better if you buff him, so what is the point to insist on the matter? I just don't see a character unable to soak spells as a tank, no matter how good he is to soak physical damage.
I'll pick Hear'Dalis or Aerie over Dorn anytime if I can to tank physical attacks with physical resistance over AC.
You would rather pick a sorceress protagonist, Dorn and Imoen and use your sorceress to deal with spellcasters at each fight?
Seems perfectly fine too. I have no ill thought about it, that's just a different way of playing
I am not saying Dorn is straight-off better than Rasaad, both have their advantages, and both will fit the role of a damage dealer and that of a tank. Just that Dorn will maybe do slightly less damage (though I'd not bet on this one) and will need some help to tank magic, while Rasaad will not be able to tank physical damage as well, but will be better against magic.
That's just a different way to play, in which Dorn doesn't fit for the role.
And the way you play does not affect the fact that Dorn CAN be as good (I'd argue "better" but let's say "as good") a tank as Rasaad, which was the whole point of the debate. @Lord_Tansheron said it very well in another thread so I am just going to quote him.