Two examples of how quests can be broken - any more?

xzar_monty

A long time ago, when playing the game, I used Melf's acid arrow against Lavok in the Planar Sphere. When he went low enough on hit points, the conversation was triggered and I was sent to fetch the demon heart. When I came back, he was dead. Quest broken. This taught me never to use Melf on quest-related people, especially when there's a time interval and its effect may linger while you do something.

Yesterday, I did the final fight at the Heretic Temple in Rasaad's quest. One of the heretic priests cast Command on Rasaad, and when the fight ended, he was still unconscious. Quest broken. Nothing happened when he woke up. I had to reload and do the fight again.

Can you give me any more examples of quests being broken along these lines? These aren't exactly bugs, as such, but they are clearly examples of things that haven't been thought out well enough. The Lavok case is excusable, in a way, but the Rasaad thing is definitely bad planning.

SirBatince

turn undead near Amuana's spirit priests. Heh

deltago

xzar_monty said:

A long time ago, when playing the game, I used Melf's acid arrow against Lavok in the Planar Sphere. When he went low enough on hit points, the conversation was triggered and I was sent to fetch the demon heart. When I came back, he was dead. Quest broken. This taught me never to use Melf on quest-related people, especially when there's a time interval and its effect may linger while you do something.

Yesterday, I did the final fight at the Heretic Temple in Rasaad's quest. One of the heretic priests cast Command on Rasaad, and when the fight ended, he was still unconscious. Quest broken. Nothing happened when he woke up. I had to reload and do the fight again.

Can you give me any more examples of quests being broken along these lines? These aren't exactly bugs, as such, but they are clearly examples of things that haven't been thought out well enough. The Lavok case is excusable, in a way, but the Rasaad thing is definitely bad planning.

How is the Lavok one excusable especially with minimum HP items in the game?

dunbar

I managed to accidentally kill Nalia once, before I took the d'Arnise Keep quest. I took on the Slaver Compound quest from the Slums entrance and when the fight to kill off the last of the slavers spilled over into the CC Nalia got killed by AoE friendly fire - and just stayed there, lying dead on the floor for the whole bloody game, to remind me that I'd missed out on my Stronghold quest!

Arunsun

Once I thought breaking quests in BG2EE required very specific circumstances. And then I played with Hexxat.

O_Bruce

The example with Lavok puzzled me. I could understand if, after using Melf's Acid Arrow and defeating him, he would take damage and became hostile, thus making you unable to talk to him. That happened to me. But to actually kill him? I've remembered he wielded a item which prevented from it. Unless something's changed in EE.

Another example, the child priestess living near Baldur's Gate.

If you accepted fishermen's quest to deal with her, you'll need to fight her to hear her side of the issue. If, after agreeing to help her, an earlier shooted arrow (before the dialouge initiated) hit her, she'll turn hostile again, preventing you from doing the quest if you decided you're on her side.

rapsam2003

I'm really not sure what you're saying. Should the devs have to fix it if the player is dumb enough to kill certain NPCs? There SHOULD be consequences if you do things like using Melf's Acid Arrow on a quest npc.

O_Bruce

rapsam2003 said:

I'm really not sure what you're saying. Should the devs have to fix it if the player is dumb enough to kill certain NPCs? There SHOULD be consequences if you do things like using Melf's Acid Arrow on a quest npc.

Imagine you do Lavok's quest for the first time. You don't know what will happen - you assume you'll just have to kill him. In that instance, using Melf's Acid Arrow, Cloudkill etc. is pretty reasonable and the player shouldn't be punished by not knowing entire quest before finishing it.

rapsam2003

O_Bruce said:

rapsam2003 said:

I'm really not sure what you're saying. Should the devs have to fix it if the player is dumb enough to kill certain NPCs? There SHOULD be consequences if you do things like using Melf's Acid Arrow on a quest npc.

Imagine you do Lavok's quest for the first time. You don't know what will happen - you assume you'll just have to kill him. In that instance, using Melf's Acid Arrow, Cloudkill etc. is pretty reasonable and the player shouldn't be punished by not knowing entire quest before finishing it.

The player should account for all possibilities. Also, this is what save game is for. The devs shouldn't be forced to correct player mistakes. The player should reload a past save. (The game autosaves before entering the Spell Sphere, iirc.) Or the player should deal with the fact that the quest NPC is dead.

There should be a cost to just casting spells without regard to anything else. There shouldn't be any hand holding, a la Skyrim where quest NPCs cannot die. This is a RPG. Some choices (such as choosing to cast Melf's Acid Arrow on a quest NPC) should come back to bite you in the ass. Whether you knew he was a quest NPC or not is irrelevant. Choice, consequence.

O_Bruce

I'm alright with consequences. But in this particular case, it is just not fair and is not good for overall gameplay. You expect people to take everything into account, even the things they can't possibly know at that point. That is not healthy attitude.

marzbarz

Doesn't Lazok die if you take too long to get a heart and talk to him after using the machine? The heart is only to go home, but talking to him again/taking him out is optional and for more xp.

rapsam2003

O_Bruce said:

I'm alright with consequences. But in this particular case, it is just not fair and is not good for overall gameplay. You expect people to take everything into account, even the things they can't possibly know at that point. That is not healthy attitude.

So, you're fine with limited consequences? Nah, that's not a real set of consequences. The devs shouldn't have to fix player mistakes. Clearly, if SoD is any indication, Beamdog agrees with me.

You can pick up a minor side quest from a NPC in the Coalition Camp in Ch10, where she asks you to talk with folks in the camp and then come back to her afterwards. You can then accuse that same NPC of "being a traitor" as part of a different side quest, BEFORE completing the side quest that said NPC gives you. This causes the NPC in question to become hostile if you push your accusation. In short, you can kill the quest NPC and be unable to turn in the side quest she gives you.

O_Bruce

I don't think you will notice that subtle difference, but I will try, regardless. Example with Lavok breaks the game (you cannot get out) and is unintentional. Your example is neither of those thing.

FinnTheHuman

Similar to the Lavok example, In Rasaad's quest in ToB:

In the shadow plane, if you kill the dragon and pick up the wheel too fast the cave does not start to collapse and the correct sequence of dialogues does not fire. You end up being pursued by an immortal Algorath forever with now way to trigger the escape.

rapsam2003

O_Bruce said:

I don't think you will notice that subtle difference, but I will try, regardless. Example with Lavok breaks the game (you cannot get out) and is unintentional. Your example is neither of those thing.

I understand that. I still think the player can reload the autosave and learn to not go throwing spells around like spell slots are free.

xzar_monty

@rapsam2003: Your attitude is rather astonishing, and it's amazing how you manage not to see the obvious. You CANNOT kill Lavok with fireballs, Abi-dalzim's horrid wiltings or what have you. The game is set up in such a way that he will initiate dialogue, and the fight will stop. This applies to all insta-effect spells, no matter how deadly they are.

But if you happen to use a spell that has a *lingering* effect, he may very well die after the dialogue. This is the point that you have steadfastly refused to acknowledge so far.

rapsam2003

xzar_monty said:

But if you happen to use a spell that has a *lingering* effect, he may very well die after the dialogue. This is the point that you have steadfastly refused to acknowledge so far.

No, I acknowledged it. I just have stated that the player should be forced to learn to NOT DO THAT. Throwing spells around like they're candy is terrible strategy and/or roleplay. Use of spells should be deliberate.

ineth

Don't be obtuse, @rapsam2003.

The fact that lingering effects can kill a quest NPC who has been deliberately scripted to be unkillable, is clearly an oversight - a.k.a. a bug.
Not some sort of challenge for players.

The point of the game is not to force players to learn to meta-game and anticipate bugs and be careful not to run afoul of fragile scripting.

TheArtisan

rapsam2003 said:

xzar_monty said:

But if you happen to use a spell that has a *lingering* effect, he may very well die after the dialogue. This is the point that you have steadfastly refused to acknowledge so far.

No, I acknowledged it. I just have stated that the player should be forced to learn to NOT DO THAT. Throwing spells around like they're candy is terrible strategy and/or roleplay. Use of spells should be deliberate.

I'm sorry but this is utter rubbish. The player has NO reason to suspect that damage over time can cause this, especially when you can throw horrid wiltings at Lavok and he will not die, period. And you're saying that the player should be punished for using Melf's acid arrow, a simple level 2 spell designed to be effective against mages? Who could possibly see that coming?

dunbar

In situations like this I ask myself "What would a DM have done?"
Would a DM have allowed this to happen? Obviously not (at least none of the DMs I know), therefore it's a bug.

xzar_monty

@rapsam2003: You don't know what you're talking about. And you didn't understand what I was talking about. I'm sorry, but that's how it is. If you don't see the difference between a meager 2nd level spell being lethal and all 9th level spells being non-lethal, I can't help you.

rapsam2003

xzar_monty said:

@rapsam2003: You don't know what you're talking about. And you didn't understand what I was talking about. I'm sorry, but that's how it is. If you don't see the difference between a meager 2nd level spell being lethal and all 9th level spells being non-lethal, I can't help you.

Bullshit. You KNEW that Melf's Acid Arrow has continuous damage. Your fault. It is NOT the fault of the devs.

ineth

rapsam2003 said:

You KNEW that Melf's Acid Arrow has continuous damage.

...and there was absolutely no reason to suspect that continuous damage would cause a problem here.

Lavok turns hostile. You're supposed to fight him. Using a spell that is intended work well against mages against him, makes perfect sense.

A first-time player would have no way of knowing that once Lavok is near-dead, he initiates dialog and turns into an unkillable quest NPC who is needed to exit the sphere again.
And even if they knew that from following a walkthrough, they would have no reason to expect that the script that makes him unkillable, has a bug and works against everything except damage-over-time effects that were placed on him right before the script kicked in.

I must say, @rapsam2003, I don't approve of the rude manner in which you brushed off people ITT who were simply recounting their experiences with quest-breaking bugs, and blamed them for not "anticipating" them (even though without meta-knowlege that's impossible).

O_Bruce

Well, his attitude is very rude. One day that attitude is going to kick him in the arse, and then he'll learn that consequences in real life are much more severe than in videogame. And there is no "load" option.

xzar_monty

@rapsam2003 also cannot speak for the devs, as he does in his most recent post. Incidentally, I'm essentially 100% certain that if one of the devs saw this Lavok issue, they would acknowledge it as an oversight. It's blatantly obvious.

rapsam2003

O_Bruce said:

Well, his attitude is very rude. One day that attitude is going to kick him in the arse, and then he'll learn that consequences in real life are much more severe than in videogame. And there is no "load" option.

Ok, bud. I think I do just fine, even though I am an asshole.

semiticgoddess

rapsam2003 said:

O_Bruce said:

Well, his attitude is very rude. One day that attitude is going to kick him in the arse, and then he'll learn that consequences in real life are much more severe than in videogame. And there is no "load" option.

Ok, bud. I think I do just fine, even though I am an asshole.

You might do even better by being nice. I've been a jerk to a handful of people in my life, and even though it didn't get me killed, it did blow up in my face. I've been nice to everyone else in my life, and even though it didn't save my life, it certainly made it a lot better.

I've never solved a problem by being mean. I've solved a lot of them by being nice.

marzbarz

IMO I think it shouldn't be that way for mainquest/scripted things. You can lose out on the xp chunk but getting stuck in the sphere because of a spell like that isn't good. It does indeed break the game, but really in the sphere there are a lot of saves/if your on bg2ee with quick save slots X4 then your not gonna even have a problem. You can just reload and quickly catch up.

That said im all for quests where the quest people die, but with lazok im 100% sure he just changed from unkillable to killable while the acid effect was on him/after conversation and when you returned he was dead/preventing you from leaving/finishing the quest/game. Lazok is supposed to die after you get the heart, go to the machine, use the machine, return to him and either bring him outside or say no and he dies right there.

This is most likely the case of the developers/code not being implemented as well as it could have been, not an intended mechanic someone new needs to learn, ( but can eventually look out for ). With him being changed to killable after that text to get/retrieve the heart/blowing up after.

Just for good measure....you DID go to the machine and use it right? If you didn't itll still take you home/let you out after but the little bit of xp from Lazok being taken outside wont be available.

marzbarz

If for whatever reason a reload wasn't possible then id try the machine if you didn't bring the heart to it asap after demon.

Queegon

FinnTheHuman said:

Similar to the Lavok example, In Rasaad's quest in ToB:

In the shadow plane, if you kill the dragon and pick up the wheel too fast the cave does not start to collapse and the correct sequence of dialogues does not fire. You end up being pursued by an immortal Algorath forever with now way to trigger the escape.

I know I reloaded that particular quest part several times before everything triggered as it should had. Certainly a bad bugginess there.

argent77

Imo, the game should reward you instead of pushishing you for finding creative ways to beat your opponents. In the case of Lavok, he should never die from a lingering effect even after turning neutral. In both states he is equipped with the plot device "MinHP1" which prevents cases like this. It's more likely that this bug has been caused by a mod for the OP.

It's different with characters dying in BG1 though. The original BG1 game didn't know about MinHP1 and other convenient plot devices. That's why Tenya, the priestess of Umberlee, could die and therefore keep you from finishing the quest in a certain way.