Invisibility - is it too powerful?
Permidion_Stark
Member Posts: 4,861
When I am playing BG I usually cast invisibility on my thief and send her ahead to scout things out. As a tactic it works very well. However, it does sometimes feel a bit like cheating and a couple of things bother me about the way invisibility works in the game.
1. Why is it possible to disarm traps while invisible but it is impossible to open a door?
2. Why does invisibility affect skeletons, slimes etc? They don't have eyes so they are not 'seeing' an object in the first place. Surely they should be immune?
Conversely, if my thief is invisible and wearing a Cloak of Non-Detection how does a Drow Mage know to cast a True Sight spell when I go past?. Is their True Sight an innate ability? If so, they shouldn't need to cast a spell? And if it's not, why are they casting the spell?
1. Why is it possible to disarm traps while invisible but it is impossible to open a door?
2. Why does invisibility affect skeletons, slimes etc? They don't have eyes so they are not 'seeing' an object in the first place. Surely they should be immune?
Conversely, if my thief is invisible and wearing a Cloak of Non-Detection how does a Drow Mage know to cast a True Sight spell when I go past?. Is their True Sight an innate ability? If so, they shouldn't need to cast a spell? And if it's not, why are they casting the spell?
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Comments
2- Well, once again, the books have never really explained how skeletons and slimes *see* you. Skeletons aren't supposed to have any of the five senses. In fact, they aren't supposed to walk either, since you need muscles to walk or run properly...
3- Non detection will only block 3rd level divination or lower. You'd have to cast spell immunity:divination to deflect a true sight.
4-Some scripts allow the enemy to *feel* that there's an invisible someone near. It prevents certain tactics, but you could imagine that drow mages have some sort of intuition ;D.
Also, Drow mages are psychic, skeletons and jellies are closet pacifists. For reals.
As for zombies, they may sometimes be extensions in this sense, but when left to their own devices, they seem to have a miniscule speck of intellect, enough to hunt around for flesh and brains to eat. And how do they do this? Well usually zombies have eyes, or they use their ears, or at least what's left of them. Hide in Shadows and Move Silently seems to be good protection against zombies in this sense.
Ghouls are basically zombies on roids (lol), same with Wights, not much going on upstairs usually, but they are in far greater physical shape, but with this in mind, I don't think they'd have any better sense of smell, eyesight, or hearing, unless specified.
As for vampires, they're like zombies too, but only 100x better, as in stronger, faster, have more of their bodies intact (i.e. eyes and ears), but aside from this, I don't think it's unusual for a vampire to be sneaked up on and surprised either. That being said, vampires in certain stories are known for having superhuman senses, so in 3rd ed, for example, it doesn't seem absurd for them to have bonuses to Spot and Listen.
I don't really feel as if the undead should be "immune" to invisibility. Backstab on the other hand, maybe, or at least at reduced effectiveness, since most of these creatures have less vital organs that they depend on to survive (including the vampire, whose only weakness seems to be a stake through the heart or sunlight--I almost wrote stunlight). But with extremely heightened senses, it doesn't seem unusual for a successful Listen check to at least realize there is someone or something concealed, although not with any specific knowledge of exactly where.
No.
1. You can disarm traps as they are usually hidden... two invisible things don't make a visible. Opening a door is a visible act. Try it at home while looking at the door, open and shut it... is it still there? Did you see it? Unless the door is invisible i.e. an open arch in the wall, you aint going through it without making your presence known...
2. As I recall the animated skeletons and such are usually created by some magical means. If the evil cleric / mage / monster / etc who is controlling them can't see you, the skeletons can't see you. If they have their own sentience... well they still need some way to see you.
3. Non-detection is just about stealth not being detected... Hell, if I had an ability to cast true sight I would use it all the time, just to see if I could see through the Drow matron mothers bikini armour... maybe this is what is happening?
:P
2. Animated skeletons can indeed be created by an animate dead spell but there are very few instances in Baldur's Gate where the cleric or mage who created the skeletons is there to control them. Skeletons in BG do appear to have their own sentience but since that is not based on the use of sight I can't see why it should be affected by invisibility.
3. That's as good an explanation as any.
All in all, Invisibility is a great spell, but it's the DM's call to modify the play. A lot of things are not specified in the manuals and there's a reason for that: it was done to leave DMs and players the opportunity to make up the rules as the game progressed, to experience different things and not to limit the interaction between the PCs and their environment. Going back to that example, if in the room there was a carpet or something soft that would have muffled out your steps, I would have applied a positive modificator to help you, invisible creature, win the game against the drow.
As for skeletons and slimes, I agree that's a bit funny how is it treated. Reasonable explanation at least for slimes is the telluric sense many of such beings have. They could probably feel you by the microseisms you leave behind while walking.
I am a Scientist and Mother Nature approves this message.
And if you don't agree to bring them to a higher level, then *worship* them at least damnit
Of course that said, I really do NOT do that enough. Furthermore it always irks me that I cannot be stealthy and look for traps at the same time on my thief without casting invisibility or using a potion =(
I find it interesting that I can hide and run at full speed down a 4 foot wide corridor , zig zag through 5 enemies and still be "hidden". Where did I hide that was so good to allow that? Even if I was invisible what would my chances be to make it through there unnoticed? How about I popped out of hide and they saw me, but I was able to turn the corner, lose line of sight and hide successfully again... even though I am still in a 4 foot wide hallway that continues on for 50 feet. The enemies just stop dead in their tracks, no pursuit or anything...not even an increased perception to be alert because there is something here that shouldn't be... Even if I can't see you... you still make noise, you breathe you shuffle your feet, your joints pop and crack... you get the picture.
That being said... most humanoids would defer to their sense of sight very heavily, but for example some species (lizardmen and gnolls for example) would have superior sense of smell to humans and would be more then likely to detect someone invisible via those methods.
Also invisibilty vs hiding and infravison invisibility being magical would conceal your heat signature( visable to those with infravision in dark areas) whereas while hiding in shadows you would be seen as you have no way of concealing your heat signature, unless you are behind something like a rocky outcropping.
I agree that while it it theoreticaly possible to disarm a trap while invisibilty is in effect there should be some perception check with a bonus to nearby enemies. The same could not be said about hiding, because you can only concentrate on doing one thing at a time to actually do it well, keep in mind also that removing atrap in game doesn't require tools or time, it's instant... in actuality it would require you to use tools and some mechanical process and some time to accomplish this... mean while you are exchanging gear and focusing on not setting off the trap (not paying attention to your surroundings)
As far as it goes for a game... I'm assuming it's a game and the laws of reality are not applicable, so what ever the code allows, we can do... I believe you can do everything other than cast offensively/attack a target under improved invisibility though...but can't remember.
Sorry for the rant.
If I open a door invisible, without anyone seeing me open the door, am I still invisible?
If I open a door visible, but no one sees me, am I in fact invisible?
If I am visible, but no one is there to see me, am I on fact invisible?
If I am invisible yet no one is there to see me... Am I then a figment of my own imagination?
If I am invisible and a figment of imagination... Will I cease to exist!
BRAIN ANEURYSM!
It's an illusion spell after all, so it affects everyone else in range BUT the target, creating an illusion in their minds. Once people make an effort to confront this illusion, it goes away (not so Improved Invisibility, it still allows for the character to remain badly visible, even if others are aware of his presence). I'd go so far as to say, running through mud and leaving footprints would be enough to dispell normal invisibility, it's that shabby.
Mages casting true sight as soon as an invisible character is around them, no matter if he is being sneaky or not, is just the engine cheating. Use boots of speed on an invisible fighter, who drinks a potion to improve damage and thac0. Run to the mage before true sight is being cast and kill him with the first strike. The mage was the one who started cheating after all.
It'd be logical that some creatures wouldn't be affected by invisibility spell at all.
There are probably many ways to interpret how Invisibility works with the subject it's cast upon. My point of view is that the subject is conituing a somatic component of the spell and by taking certain actions, they violate the somatics of the spell and it ends.
As far as the Drow knowing when to cast True Sight, the spell Invisibilty makes no claims to keep you from being heard. That being said I am going to assume that as all elves, drow are keen in their senses, and given the established ruthfulness of Drow society I am going to further assume they expect spies arround every corner. Thus they hear something that sounds like movement, they don't see anything, and they have a spell for that. That's the best explanation I can offer on that point.