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My thoughts on the game, having just finished

All right, so I said I wasn't going to buy it and just watch Let's Plays of the game, but after going through most of an online playthrough I figured I was interested enough to play it. So I bought it and have just finished a first runthrough.



Knowing the controversy of Mizhena, her actual presence in the game is hilariously minor compared to the vitriol people have spewed in reaction. Yes, I think she could have been better represented and it's artificial to just have her go into detail on her background after one conversation. But really, that's how most of the NPCs in these games react. It's only the in depth romances which take some time to get to know the person on a more intimate level, and those weren't even introduced in BG1. Granted, we can't ignore game development that has taken place after BG1, and that is one of the challenges of making an interquel of a 15 year old game.



I think the issue for me is more than the tone of the game was sometimes jarring when compared to BG1 and BG2. While I enjoyed the game a lot and it was fun to have another adventure in the Sword Coast, the overly cheeky tone which pervaded a lot of the expansion came across as over the top and intrusive. Many of the PC's dialogue options were much more sarcastic and witty than anything available in the base games, to the point where it seemed overkill and no longer funny. The rare sarcastic dialogue in the original games was more notable because it wasn't constant, and poking fun at the D&D system or the setting was fun because we usually took it at face value. When every option we have includes poking fun, it loses its potency and shine.



It reminds me of my issue with Rasaad. I played through both BG1 and BG2 with him before (I didn't play with him in my party in SoD yet) and it seemed like most of the "correct" dialogue lines for him were snarky and trying to get him to be less serious all the time. That's well and good, but why is he the only person in the base games I can say this to? Most of the dialogue is black and white good and evil (not the most sophisticated, granted) and then with this one NPC I can be snarky in every dialogue. Why wouldn't we also have the option to treat him as seriously as he treats his own beliefs? It's railroading the PC into not believing Rasaad's beliefs and trying to force a change in him rather than leaving him as is.



I do think that SoD improved on a lot of the aspects of the vanilla games, including multiple paths (the Bridgefort siege, dealing with Caelar, the ending judgment). There was enough good side content that I didn't mind that we didn't have many options other than to stick to the linear main plot. I do think there should have been more obvious warnings when we were ending a chapter and could not return to previous maps. It's obvious in the first chapter, as we're not coming back to Baldur's Gate, but it wasn't so clear in the next chapter when there's no actual reason why we couldn't return to previous maps, since our small party wouldn't move as slowly as a large army. And the dwarven mines was such a large area that it was actually half of the entire time I spent in that chapter. It could have been helpful to come back to that later.



I only just recently purchased the game, so I didn't experience any of the launch bugs and didn't encounter too many bugs as I went. I luckily did keep multiple saves just in case, since I came back to camp in Chapter 9 and M'Khiin was nowhere to be found, so I had to reload to the previous chapter, put her in my party, then continue to Chapter 9. Small things like this which aren't game breaking but significant in missing out on content.



And I'm a little frustrated that some of the achievements still happen to be bugged. There are three which seem to be confirmed not to work at all, one which takes multiple reloads to achieve, and one which I didn't get but I haven't heard anyone else hasn't missed. Some of the achievements seem very random and impossible to obtain without metagaming. There are two about finding all allies for the siege and fighting all optional enemies, but neither of these groups are intuitive or make much sense as to why it would matter. The achievement about winning three riddle games is similarly strange, since the first riddle requires a low charisma to even obtain, the second requires using a limited charge item after we have already encountered enough instances to deplete the charges, and the final riddle is surprisingly easy to miss due to dialogue options often leading to a fight rather than the riddle.





So ultimately, I enjoyed the game and am glad I purchased it. It had some bugs and flaws, most of which I mentioned, but overall I thought it captured a lot of the spirit of the original games, if not always the tone. And it was a lot of fun adventuring in the setting again at a good level. Not too underpowered like the start of BG1 and not boringly overpowered like the second half of BG2 and all of ToB. I would definitely be interested if there is another expansion for BG2, as there are some remaining plot threads from SoD which could be tied up. I would hope that Beamdog takes feedback from what worked and what didn't in SoD (and not trolling about transgender characters) if they continue working in BG.



I don't want a BG3 from them, though. Unless that's a placeholder name for a completely new PC, new story, just using Infinity Engine and set in the FR. But I don't see how there could be an entire game's worth of story for the Bhaalspawn after ToB. That was all wrapped up and any further stories veer into personal headcanon.



I would much rather they work on a completely new story than keep relying on existing games for their work. Let's see what Gaider is involved in and hopefully his world building skills will help them in a new franchise.
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Comments

  • GhavGrimGhavGrim Member Posts: 35
    I keep feeling like a Chapter is missing at the end. Shouldn't there be a set piece battle that I lose?

    I enjoyed SoD, but I was hoping it would be The Empire Strikes Back. I would have had scripted deaths for Khalid and Dynaheir, and dialogue for you dealing with their partners. Rich vein of storytelling fodder in there. Does Minsc suffer rages at random unless you choose the right dialog. Does Jaheira become Catatonic Neutral unless you help her? I would have had more of the BG1 NPCs as well, and script deaths for most of those that don't make it through to BG2, like Ajantis.

    We could have built up Irenicus, or the SoD opponents, by having then permakill characters and create an atmosphere of struggle and darkness, forcing you to recruit new NPCs and widening your experience.

    And the last chapter could separate you from non canon party members and have you face the Irenicus ambush with the only assistance that was available - the other (canon) cell mates who free you.

    Which you lose.

    I'd have gone to a dark, dark place with this one.
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 2,785
    GhavGrim said:

    script deaths for most of those that don't make it through to BG2, like Ajantis.

    Ajantis is one of the knights the PC kills in Windspear Hills. So, he (kind of) makes it to BGII.

  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    GhavGrim said:

    I keep feeling like a Chapter is missing at the end. Shouldn't there be a set piece battle that I lose?

    I enjoyed SoD, but I was hoping it would be The Empire Strikes Back. I would have had scripted deaths for Khalid and Dynaheir, and dialogue for you dealing with their partners. Rich vein of storytelling fodder in there. Does Minsc suffer rages at random unless you choose the right dialog. Does Jaheira become Catatonic Neutral unless you help her? I would have had more of the BG1 NPCs as well, and script deaths for most of those that don't make it through to BG2, like Ajantis.

    We could have built up Irenicus, or the SoD opponents, by having then permakill characters and create an atmosphere of struggle and darkness, forcing you to recruit new NPCs and widening your experience.

    And the last chapter could separate you from non canon party members and have you face the Irenicus ambush with the only assistance that was available - the other (canon) cell mates who free you.

    Which you lose.

    I'd have gone to a dark, dark place with this one.

    Khalid and Dynaheir dying would not fit with BG2 since they came to rescue charname with Jaheira and Minsc. Irenicus is being built up.

    The Empire Strikes Back would not have been The Empire Strikes Back had George Lucas produced it after Return of the Jedi.
  • VbibbiVbibbi Member Posts: 229
    I did think the end was a little abrupt. I thought there would at least be figures coming out and surrounding us, rather than just a mist. It was a bit anticlimactic and relied on the player remembering the beginning of BG2. The ending should segue the player into BG2, not force us to link the pieces by recalling BG2.

    I don't know that seeing Khalid or Dynaheir die on screen would have been effective. Khalid, at least, is a plot point when escaping the dungeon, as we don't know where he is until we find his body. I guess they could show Dynaheir die, if they plan on adjusting any BG2 content and add a dialogue choice when freeing Minsc that mentions that we saw her die, as well. As it stands, his dialogue is vague on when and how she died.


    What could have been dark is if one of the new SoD NPCs accompanied us as well and they died in the attack. It couldn't be Corwin since she could have been in the sewers, but any of the other three could have also been helping us escape and be killed in front of us. That would shatter the happy ending.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Vbibbi said:

    I don't want a BG3 from them, though. Unless that's a placeholder name for a completely new PC, new story, just using Infinity Engine and set in the FR. But I don't see how there could be an entire game's worth of story for the Bhaalspawn after ToB. That was all wrapped up and any further stories veer into personal headcanon.

    There's already been discussion on this.
    1) It makes ZERO sense for BG3 to use the Infinity Engine; that engine is over 15 years old. It is simply a fact that there are much better engines out there right now.
    2) BG3 would likely be a new story, in the same way that Neverwinter Nights 2 was a new story from NWN1.
    3) BG3 WILL be using 5E. Tweets from the CEO have confirmed this.
  • VbibbiVbibbi Member Posts: 229

    Vbibbi said:

    I don't want a BG3 from them, though. Unless that's a placeholder name for a completely new PC, new story, just using Infinity Engine and set in the FR. But I don't see how there could be an entire game's worth of story for the Bhaalspawn after ToB. That was all wrapped up and any further stories veer into personal headcanon.

    There's already been discussion on this.
    1) It makes ZERO sense for BG3 to use the Infinity Engine; that engine is over 15 years old. It is simply a fact that there are much better engines out there right now.
    2) BG3 would likely be a new story, in the same way that Neverwinter Nights 2 was a new story from NWN1.
    3) BG3 WILL be using 5E. Tweets from the CEO have confirmed this.

    Oh okay thanks for sharing. So does that mean BG3 is officially in production, if they've confirmed the 5E rule set?
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    Vbibbi said:

    Oh okay thanks for sharing. So does that mean BG3 is officially in production, if they've confirmed the 5E rule set?

    Don't know for sure. But I'm basing it on Tweets from Trent Oster, as I said. Whether it's in production or not, his tweets have not stated either way. My guess is that they won't start production full-scale until they feel that BG1/2/SoD are stable.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919

    Vbibbi said:

    Oh okay thanks for sharing. So does that mean BG3 is officially in production, if they've confirmed the 5E rule set?

    Don't know for sure. But I'm basing it on Tweets from Trent Oster, as I said. Whether it's in production or not, his tweets have not stated either way. My guess is that they won't start production full-scale until they feel that BG1/2/SoD are stable.
    They need to get IWD up to 2.x as well hopefully too.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621

    Vbibbi said:

    I don't want a BG3 from them, though. Unless that's a placeholder name for a completely new PC, new story, just using Infinity Engine and set in the FR. But I don't see how there could be an entire game's worth of story for the Bhaalspawn after ToB. That was all wrapped up and any further stories veer into personal headcanon.

    There's already been discussion on this.
    1) It makes ZERO sense for BG3 to use the Infinity Engine; that engine is over 15 years old. It is simply a fact that there are much better engines out there right now.
    2) BG3 would likely be a new story, in the same way that Neverwinter Nights 2 was a new story from NWN1.
    3) BG3 WILL be using 5E. Tweets from the CEO have confirmed this.
    1. Pillars of Eternity. Tides of Numenera.
    2. Spot on.
    3. R.I.P BG if they use the 5th edition.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621

    Vbibbi said:

    Oh okay thanks for sharing. So does that mean BG3 is officially in production, if they've confirmed the 5E rule set?

    Don't know for sure. But I'm basing it on Tweets from Trent Oster, as I said. Whether it's in production or not, his tweets have not stated either way. My guess is that they won't start production full-scale until they feel that BG1/2/SoD are stable.
    Actually, I think WoTC has a policy about that. New games has to use the current d&d system. Given how the magic system is tied to the lore, BG3 will have to be a brand new game. Using that magic system durin the time period of BG 1-2 would be a gigantic plot hole.
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    I believe Beamdog has said that their next project is currently further into production than SoD was at this time last year.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    Purudaya said:

    I believe Beamdog has said that their next project is currently further into production than SoD was at this time last year.

    That leads me to believe PST:EE next in that case.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Vbibbi said:




    Oh okay thanks for sharing. So does that mean BG3 is officially in production, if they've confirmed the 5E rule set?

    There has been no "official" announcement, but it's a very open secret.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    Rawgrim said:


    1) It makes ZERO sense for BG3 to use the Infinity Engine; that engine is over 15 years old. It is simply a fact that there are much better engines out there right now.

    1. Pillars of Eternity. Tides of Numenera.
    I'm not sure you're saying those are Infinity Engine games or listing games made on more modern engines, but in case of the former: PoE and ToN are not IE made games. They're made with Obsidian's Unity-based "Eternity Engine".
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    scriver said:

    Rawgrim said:


    1) It makes ZERO sense for BG3 to use the Infinity Engine; that engine is over 15 years old. It is simply a fact that there are much better engines out there right now.

    1. Pillars of Eternity. Tides of Numenera.
    I'm not sure you're saying those are Infinity Engine games or listing games made on more modern engines, but in case of the former: PoE and ToN are not IE made games. They're made with Obsidian's Unity-based "Eternity Engine".
    Yes, I know. Basically an updated Infinity Engine.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    It should be pointed out that BG3 can take place 200 years after BG1, feature a new protagonist, and still continue situations, locations, characters and themes from the earlier games.
  • VbibbiVbibbi Member Posts: 229
    I wouldn't mind a time jump (and if it's 5e rules I guess that's mandatory) but I don't want too many recurring faces or settings. A few cameos by some elves would be cool but I don't want a new game to rely too heavily on the BG series. A new game can capture the spirit and some of the themes of BG but let's have something completely new, not just drawing out stories from 15 years ago. I think that's already been a double edged sword for Beamdog with SoD.
  • CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 238
    edited May 2016
    Fardragon said:

    It should be pointed out that BG3 can take place 200 years after BG1, feature a new protagonist, and still continue situations, locations, characters and themes from the earlier games.

    This is true. SoD draws a lot from the simple realization of what big things happened where you're standing. Right here, a spoony wizard and his friends raided a temple and stopped his ex-girlfriend from killing her child, completely overlooking the little boy that would one day kill him. Just over that bridge, an ambitious "friend" back-stabbed a mortal god in order to take his place. This emergency refuge shelter was once the center point of an organization that sought to start a war in the name of profit. I now have a penthouse suite in the very building where my brother was sworn in as a duke. This castle has seen so much needless treachery and tragedy that even I feel better about my life in comparison (though that will change in the sequel)...

    So, yeah, a third game that looks back, where history echoes in your footsteps and mirrors and dictates the present and the future could certainly work. Unfortunately, the key word is "could". Much as I enjoyed SoD in general and adored having a chance to hang with a select subset of my old friends, the game did not enamor me to Beamdog's writing style. So I wouldn't be confident enough to pre-order a collector's edition the game well in advance, for example, as I did with SoD. Still, it really could work.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Fardragon said:

    It should be pointed out that BG3 can take place 200 years after BG1, feature a new protagonist, and still continue situations, locations, characters and themes from the earlier games.

    It has to take place 200+ years after BG2, due to the 5th edition.
  • doggydoggy Member Posts: 313
    Well after all those years it will be interesting if noober have reproduced to give us the amazing naaber or niiber.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Rawgrim said:

    3. R.I.P BG if they use the 5th edition.

    Bullshit. It would be just fine, as it would mean a completely new storyline.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    5th edition is actually much closer to 2nd than either 3rd or 4th. You could make the game VERY similar using 5th edition rules.

    The only companion who could return would be Xan, and he would have had to relearn his spellcasting from scratch because of the spell plague.

    (Kivan could have a cameo, but he would be too high level to return as a companion.)
  • TheGraveDiggerTheGraveDigger Member Posts: 336
    200 years is nothing. Almost anyone can survive with a bit of imagination.

    Jan = Pickled his brain. You can use resurrection on him.
    Haer'Dalis = Some planar travel mumbo jumbo.
    Korgan = Looting the Book of Kaza cursed him, trapping his soul or whatever. Undead Korgan.
    Baeloth = Hand wave his death by confusing us with fancy words.
    Minsc = Minsc.
    Edwin = LICH!
    Hexxat = Vampire...
    Dorn = Made a deal with a demon to live forever.
    Neera = *Wild Surge* Imprisonment spell on self.
    Anomen = The turd that wont flush.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    If comic books teach us nothing else, it's that just because you can bring someone back doesn't mean you should.
  • LegendaryLegendary Member Posts: 53
    I feel you on tone. One of the most jarring, and I think most poorly written elements of the game were the death lines. So many characters make a joke out of their own death. Especially Neera. It's ridiculous. And they aren't even funny, in some cases they're even pretty wordy like BG:EE Neera's 'Only take me to a licensed cleric'

    God I hate BG:EE Neera
    So much
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636

    200 years is nothing. Almost anyone can survive with a bit of imagination.

    Jan = Pickled his brain. You can use resurrection on him.

    Yeah, no...his brain would have rotted away after 200 years of pickling. You canNOT pickle something for 200 years.

    Haer'Dalis = Some planar travel mumbo jumbo.

    Tieflings only live a max of 180 years. The Planes don't work in such a way as to delay time. Some Planeswalkers become powerful enough to live a long time (past their race's expected lifespan), but that would have to be a hell of an explanation. Something like, "Well, I was in the Astral Plane for a while..." is going to make any fan of the Planescape D&D setting (like myself) call bullshit loud and clear. Haer'Dalis is not like Vecna: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vecna

    Korgan = Looting the Book of Kaza cursed him, trapping his soul or whatever. Undead Korgan.

    Which doesn't make sense in terms of his character in BG2.

    Baeloth = Hand wave his death by confusing us with fancy words.

    He's a Drow. Like all Elves, they're long-lived. He probably wouldn't have died.

    Minsc = Minsc.

    He's human. He's dead.

    Edwin = LICH!

    Plausible, but unlikely.

    Hexxat = Vampire...

    Yes, she's probably still alive.

    Dorn = Made a deal with a demon to live forever.

    Demons can't really make you immortal. If you gain enough power, you can ascend to godhood (and thus immortality), but Dorn's deal was always revenge, not immortality. It's more likely that Dorn died at some point, and then he was judged and sent to hell. As with Haer'Dalis, Dorn is not like Vecna.

    Neera = *Wild Surge* Imprisonment spell on self.

    Half-Elves only live to be about 150 years old. Using what you suggest is a bad plat hack, which no one would appreciate.

    Anomen = The turd that wont flush.

    He's human. He's dead.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    shawne said:

    If comic books teach us nothing else, it's that just because you can bring someone back doesn't mean you should.

    Comic books also teach us that just because you shouldn't bring someone back doesn't mean you won't. ;)
  • LegendaryLegendary Member Posts: 53
    I don't really know what this convo is about but since 5e is the best edition since Pathfinder, which isn't even really D&D, I would definitely say BG3 being in 5e would not be "RIP"

    As for living characters. Abdel(CHARNAME's given name for continuity sake) and Corwin both survive until 5th we know. Abdel becomes Duke and
    Either is killed by another Bhaalspawn or, well, winning that fight is even worse for him
    . Most of the human characters are probably dead though sorry. Minsc was alive in Neverwinter online due to writing hijinks but eh.
  • TheGraveDiggerTheGraveDigger Member Posts: 336
    @rapsam2003
    I wasn't being serious. The last thing I want is for Minsc or Neera to show up in the next game. I just meant anything can happen in the Forgotten Realms...

    Though I doubt I'd play a Baldur's Gate game in a new engine, because I just can't get *into* the new RPG games. I tried Pillars of Eternity, Divinity: Original Sin, and Sword Coast Legends and found them all to be boring.
  • CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 238
    Maybe I missed it. Has anyone pointed out that Baldur's Gate turned second edition, the most convoluted and arbitrary edition of the game, into a relatively simple and enjoyable experience?
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