@Tetraploid, the "problem" at hand is illustrated by your calling it "preferences". There is no "preference" involved in a sexual orientation, and your use of the word "preference" makes me grind my teeth and start pushing down anger.
Your use of that word is like a white racist using the word "colored" and then not understanding and being genuinely baffled when some person of African descent calls them a racist and gets really angry with them.
We could even elevate this discussion to the level of races in games. If I were a black person, I would see racism in *all* the games in question and have trouble relating. If I were black, I would get Dynaheir, Valygar, and, um, anybody else at all? - who looked like me. And, Dynaheir dies. Shouldn't Minsc be black, as a Rashemani? I use a portrait set that does in fact make him black. Where are the Asians in these games? Yoshimo, to represent all of Asia? And he's a traitor? Oh, wow, great representation. How am I supposed to feel if I'm of Asian descent?
These games are clearly marketed predominantly to young white males, with anything else being mixed in one or two at a time to be a token representation of minorities. BTW, where is a latino or latina *anywhere* in any of these games?
You see, any discussion of this kind that was really cutting to the core of the issue would be closed within two posts on any game forum, and the moderators would be going "Yikes, how dare anybody think they could possibly say such things in our forums and not be banned immediately?"
Yet, here are two or three equally offensive (to gay minority members) discussions going on in at least two seperate threads, on and on to going a hundred pages each, and the forum mods remain silent and allow it to continue.
Any person with a conscience worries about offending persons of any minority race, yet, still, in the year 2012, it is perfectly okay to insult, denigrate, and do anything at all to keep a person of a minority sexual orientation held down and relegated to second-class citizenship, accused of moral depravity, told that they choose to be sexual deviants by being attracted to other consensual partners who feel the same, told that they are the same as pedophiles and bestiaphiles, and .... well.... GRRRR!
*sigh*. So, as I have said before, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Haters gonna hate. The people in a society decide collectively how much the Haters gonna get away with.
I applaud game developers who do what they can to not let the Haters get away with as much as they would prefer. But those of us who Love and fight Hate have a very long way to go, it seems.
And, while I'm ranting, "homophobic" is a word that is a total misnomer. The "homophobes" are not "afraid" of homosexuals as the word implies. They HATE homosexuals. There is a very, very, important difference.
Hmm, I'm not convinced that it's possible to bring this issue up without starting a flame war. I already want to give a piece of my mind to some other comments made by certain people.
However, out of respect, I will politely bow out of the thread.
I am fine with heterosexual and homo/bisexual romances, but there should be more heterosexual ones because after all there are more heterosexual players than homo/bisexual ones.
It's not about the number of players, but about how people are. There are just more heterosexual people and I feel immersion to be easier if the game world reflects that too. I just feel weird, when IRL I know at least ten times as many hetero people. So if I encounter about as many homosexuals as heteros in a game it doesn't feel right. Not judging at all, please don't misunderstand, just I would feel like that people in that game world don't work like people in my world and I would feel myself to be a bit of an outsider.
Oh, and on a side note: What's happening with the English language? Couldn't we use a bit politer sentences, like 'I would like...' instead of saying 'I want'? Maybe it's just me, but my mother and my girlfriend always told me of when I said 'I want this. I want that.' It just feel rude, like if you don't care what others say, you want it to happen that way or else...
@Shandyr - It's all good. You did a pretty good job with just 10. Besides my position on such things is a little shaky instead of absolute. There are certain things I would *prefer* not to do, but I don't think it's the end of the world if it happens, you know what I'm saying? So yeah
As usual, I hop into a topic where there's already some pages written that I haven't all read yet but post my own view anyway. First of all, I like how Shandyr tried to make a poll with a lot of nuance in the options. I voted for "I want all sexualities to be included, hardcoded. I do not care for specific amounts of romancable NPCs of any sexuality." I like to have a game with some hetero and some gay romances, but what I don't like is a game where every npc is romanceable by every race and gender. Sexuality should be something that's a unique feature of someone's personality.
Even more important than sexuality however, and I'm much obliged to @BelgarathMTH for pointing that out, I strongly agree, is well-written friendly interaction. The game is about adventuring together, like he said. The NPC banter I myself like most is Finch, and she isn't romanceable at all, but I love her interaction and reacting to the events in the game. Likewise the Xan Friendship path: no romance, but a very involving storyline.
I do like options in the game, gays and lesbians as well as heterosexual males and females should find at least one NPC to their liking, but don't make every NPC into romance options that get silent when you don't romance them. It makes them very superficial. And real life is also like that: not everyone you fancy can be romanced as they might have preferences that don't include you, heartbraking though it might be sometimes.
And after some frustrating relationships or trying to get a relationship, there might come a day when you decide a very rewarding life can be had on your own, with friends and relatives, without hassle of romance.
Whoa, hold on a sec. What romance you follow in a video game is totally a preference, unless you believe that no one would be interested in a romance that doesn't follow their own sexuality! I'm asexual but I don't always play my characters that way. I'm sorry if you misinterpreted what I said but I am pretty sure I would not deserve that tirade even if I HAD actually meant what you thought: you should aim to re-educate those who genuinely believe sexuality is a preference, not just lash back with anger. Some people WILL listen to reason if it isn't presented as a personal attack.
I think being able to choose the sexual orientation of romances via a toggle button at the beginning of the game would make everyone happy...well, except for the ones who want to control what you choose.
I'm going to play a nasty card: How about a toggle to make Valygar and Yoshimo white?
As long as we're segregating out things players might not like or want, might as well, right?
Toggles sounds good at first, but then when you think about it, the implications are ugly. Bigots and small minded people don't need to be placated with toggles. They need to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century.
I hate the idea of a toggle. It shoves gay people into a kinda of virtual closet. Frack that. It's 2012. Nobody gets to pretend that gay people don't exist anymore.
(Mort, I replied to you post because you mentioned toggles & it's been on my mind. No criticism intended, as I never got te impression you think the way this post implies).
I don't mind there being the option of gay/lesbian romances, it's only fair for players that are sexually oriented that way.
However I think you need to have specific NPC's for each sexual orientation because otherwise the quality of the writing will suffer and it will seem shoe-horned in. I suppose Bisexual characters would be simpler, but how realistic would it be that everyone is bisexual?
So yeah, have some gay, some straight, some bisexual. Hell have Transgender character if you want it's 2012, time to get over labelling sexuality, as far as im concerned, people can do what or who they like, if it makes you happy then go for gold!
I think having a variety of choices that cater to multiple play styles is great. I'm less concerned about how it is implemented. Although having a toggle switch in the options would be immersion breaking for me. My in game romances don't always reflect my own sexuality and I don't predetermine my character's choices, I like to let these things develop in game.
@Brude Even more than that, the game isn't about sexual orientation. The game is about adventuring and killing goblins (a whole different kettle of politically incorrect fish). A toggle at character creation is one extra detail that really doesn't need to be there because it doesn't affect most of the gameplay.
The proper application of this would be better dialogue options at the start of the romance. Most people that have a problem with bi- or homo-sexual romances is that they have no way to say "can't we just be friends?"
And really, that's a problem with a lot of romances, not just homosexual and bisexual ones. If the dialogue were better and easier to navigate for those who aren't comfortable with that sort of thing (there's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with something, as long as it doesn't cross the line into hatred), I think there would be far fewer objections.
EDIT: Also, yes, if this poll is about more than just BG, it belongs in Off-Topic. @Tanthalas?
I want all sexualities to be included, hardcoded. I do not care for specific amounts of romancable NPCs of any sexuality.
I think this is the one I want? I mean, I think sexuality is a fairly big part in someone's identity and character. For example I could totally see Isabella batting both teams but not Merrill. Not everyone should bend to my will just because we play the protagonists. Part of the fun in the game is your response into things you can't change.
So I think its totally reasonable for me to roleplay a character who thinks a guy is "the one" only to be politely rebuffed because he's homosexual. Awkward!
Since I don't think anyone is willing to write it that way, I would take all bi (ala DA) as a second choice. Either way I don't want alternative sexualities to be denied. Variety is the spice of life
Comments
Your use of that word is like a white racist using the word "colored" and then not understanding and being genuinely baffled when some person of African descent calls them a racist and gets really angry with them.
We could even elevate this discussion to the level of races in games. If I were a black person, I would see racism in *all* the games in question and have trouble relating. If I were black, I would get Dynaheir, Valygar, and, um, anybody else at all? - who looked like me. And, Dynaheir dies. Shouldn't Minsc be black, as a Rashemani? I use a portrait set that does in fact make him black. Where are the Asians in these games? Yoshimo, to represent all of Asia? And he's a traitor? Oh, wow, great representation. How am I supposed to feel if I'm of Asian descent?
These games are clearly marketed predominantly to young white males, with anything else being mixed in one or two at a time to be a token representation of minorities. BTW, where is a latino or latina *anywhere* in any of these games?
You see, any discussion of this kind that was really cutting to the core of the issue would be closed within two posts on any game forum, and the moderators would be going "Yikes, how dare anybody think they could possibly say such things in our forums and not be banned immediately?"
Yet, here are two or three equally offensive (to gay minority members) discussions going on in at least two seperate threads, on and on to going a hundred pages each, and the forum mods remain silent and allow it to continue.
Any person with a conscience worries about offending persons of any minority race, yet, still, in the year 2012, it is perfectly okay to insult, denigrate, and do anything at all to keep a person of a minority sexual orientation held down and relegated to second-class citizenship, accused of moral depravity, told that they choose to be sexual deviants by being attracted to other consensual partners who feel the same, told that they are the same as pedophiles and bestiaphiles, and .... well.... GRRRR!
*sigh*. So, as I have said before, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Haters gonna hate. The people in a society decide collectively how much the Haters gonna get away with.
I applaud game developers who do what they can to not let the Haters get away with as much as they would prefer. But those of us who Love and fight Hate have a very long way to go, it seems.
And, while I'm ranting, "homophobic" is a word that is a total misnomer. The "homophobes" are not "afraid" of homosexuals as the word implies. They HATE homosexuals. There is a very, very, important difference.
However, out of respect, I will politely bow out of the thread.
It's not about the number of players, but about how people are. There are just more heterosexual people and I feel immersion to be easier if the game world reflects that too. I just feel weird, when IRL I know at least ten times as many hetero people. So if I encounter about as many homosexuals as heteros in a game it doesn't feel right. Not judging at all, please don't misunderstand, just I would feel like that people in that game world don't work like people in my world and I would feel myself to be a bit of an outsider.
Oh, and on a side note: What's happening with the English language? Couldn't we use a bit politer sentences, like 'I would like...' instead of saying 'I want'? Maybe it's just me, but my mother and my girlfriend always told me of when I said 'I want this. I want that.' It just feel rude, like if you don't care what others say, you want it to happen that way or else...
Even more important than sexuality however, and I'm much obliged to @BelgarathMTH for pointing that out, I strongly agree, is well-written friendly interaction. The game is about adventuring together, like he said. The NPC banter I myself like most is Finch, and she isn't romanceable at all, but I love her interaction and reacting to the events in the game. Likewise the Xan Friendship path: no romance, but a very involving storyline.
I do like options in the game, gays and lesbians as well as heterosexual males and females should find at least one NPC to their liking, but don't make every NPC into romance options that get silent when you don't romance them. It makes them very superficial. And real life is also like that: not everyone you fancy can be romanced as they might have preferences that don't include you, heartbraking though it might be sometimes.
And after some frustrating relationships or trying to get a relationship, there might come a day when you decide a very rewarding life can be had on your own, with friends and relatives, without hassle of romance.
Whoa, hold on a sec. What romance you follow in a video game is totally a preference, unless you believe that no one would be interested in a romance that doesn't follow their own sexuality! I'm asexual but I don't always play my characters that way. I'm sorry if you misinterpreted what I said but I am pretty sure I would not deserve that tirade even if I HAD actually meant what you thought: you should aim to re-educate those who genuinely believe sexuality is a preference, not just lash back with anger. Some people WILL listen to reason if it isn't presented as a personal attack.
As long as we're segregating out things players might not like or want, might as well, right?
Toggles sounds good at first, but then when you think about it, the implications are ugly. Bigots and small minded people don't need to be placated with toggles. They need to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century.
I hate the idea of a toggle. It shoves gay people into a kinda of virtual closet. Frack that. It's 2012. Nobody gets to pretend that gay people don't exist anymore.
(Mort, I replied to you post because you mentioned toggles & it's been on my mind. No criticism intended, as I never got te impression you think the way this post implies).
However I think you need to have specific NPC's for each sexual orientation because otherwise the quality of the writing will suffer and it will seem shoe-horned in. I suppose Bisexual characters would be simpler, but how realistic would it be that everyone is bisexual?
So yeah, have some gay, some straight, some bisexual. Hell have Transgender character if you want it's 2012, time to get over labelling sexuality, as far as im concerned, people can do what or who they like, if it makes you happy then go for gold!
Even more than that, the game isn't about sexual orientation. The game is about adventuring and killing goblins (a whole different kettle of politically incorrect fish). A toggle at character creation is one extra detail that really doesn't need to be there because it doesn't affect most of the gameplay.
The proper application of this would be better dialogue options at the start of the romance. Most people that have a problem with bi- or homo-sexual romances is that they have no way to say "can't we just be friends?"
And really, that's a problem with a lot of romances, not just homosexual and bisexual ones. If the dialogue were better and easier to navigate for those who aren't comfortable with that sort of thing (there's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with something, as long as it doesn't cross the line into hatred), I think there would be far fewer objections.
EDIT: Also, yes, if this poll is about more than just BG, it belongs in Off-Topic. @Tanthalas?
I think this is the one I want? I mean, I think sexuality is a fairly big part in someone's identity and character. For example I could totally see Isabella batting both teams but not Merrill. Not everyone should bend to my will just because we play the protagonists. Part of the fun in the game is your response into things you can't change.
So I think its totally reasonable for me to roleplay a character who thinks a guy is "the one" only to be politely rebuffed because he's homosexual. Awkward!
Since I don't think anyone is willing to write it that way, I would take all bi (ala DA) as a second choice. Either way I don't want alternative sexualities to be denied. Variety is the spice of life
I'm still not going to allow it though. These polls are just fuel for the fire.