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Why can enemies target invisible characters?

AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 806
This looks like a bug. In the Firkraag dungeon my mage casts Improved Invisibility on Minsc and Minsc attacks a guardian. The guardian casts a fireball on Minsc and fries him. When I try to cast a spell on an invisible character I get a message saying I can't do that. So why can enemies do it?

I read a request to have this as a part of the game, but it doesn't look like it was successful (and rightly so in my opinion).
Post edited by Alonso on

Comments

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    edited May 2016
    Fireball is an AoE spell that does not require directly targeting someone in order to damage them. Also, some enemies can see invisible characters if they've got True Seeing or the like activated. Even Non-Detection isn't a perfect barrier against demons and such.
    I think the Guardian may be one of those foes.
    mf2112semiticgoddesslolien
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    Are you sure the guardian didn't target a spot and not Minsc himself? Those guys are immune to fire as I recall so they did throw some out there without regard.
    jackjacksemiticgoddess
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    edited May 2016
    Those Guardians don't have the Fireball spell memorized, so I guess their Fireball is an innate ability with different properties and targeting rules. Notice that the combat feedback is "Guardian: Fireball : CHARNAME," not "Guardian: Casts Fireball : CHARNAME."
    Post edited by joluv on
    jackjack
  • DevardKrownDevardKrown Member Posts: 421
    did you forget to cast Improved Invisibility on Boo too ?
    *giggles and runs into the night*


    but yeah Icestorm , Fireball , Skulltrap , all those AOE's can just be thrown at the rough location and still hurt the invisible party member.
    jackjacksemiticgoddesslolien
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    edited May 2016
    The Guardians do directly target party members under Improved Invisibility and Shadow Door, though.


    Edit: And they can't see through invisibility.

    jackjacksemiticgoddessAlonso
  • magisenseimagisensei Member Posts: 316
    Some creatures can see through invisibility. Demons for example normally see through invisibility, kuo-toa can see right through it and I always imagined greater creatures like dragons and mystical creatures should easily be able to see through invisibility.

    Improved invisibility becomes slightly visible when you attack or interact with the environment in some way - although monsters will suffer a penalty for hitting and players will still benefit from partial invisibility.

    Invisibility does not stop damage from AoE spells which of course includes fireball.

    If you for example were casting mass healing/haste or some party-buff and one of your NPC was invisible he would still heal/haste/buff him as well - you cannot cast individual spells on that NPC when they are invisible (this also happens if your NPC is hiding in shadow - no personal spells can be cast on someone that is current hiding - you have to leave shadows in order to cast on that character.)

    Of course you can get your mage to fire AoE spells in a general direction of invisible creatures and it will hit them but usually creatures that go invisible are thieves with potions or mages and your team is already engaged in close combat with them so using a damaging AoE like fireball in the same area as your team is not advised unless you have a certain high level mage spell that is party friendly for damage of course you can still use spells like hold, horror, chaos and emotions spells on monsters that are mixed with your group when fighting.
  • SirBatinceSirBatince Member Posts: 882
    It really is for balance.

    With non detection and improved invis, you can easily break and stall even some liches unmodded
    semiticgoddess
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,367
    Once you take a hostile action under Improved Invisibility, you are no longer invisible, you just retain the combat bonus's of Improved Invisibility and others cannot cast spells targeting you for the remaining duration.

    That said, those Guardians do not cast spells, they force spells. Forced spells ignore most spell-casting rules. A creature using forced spells to simulate proper spell-casting is cheating. Unfortunately there isn't any proper way for creatures to cast location-targeted AoE spells. It still doesn't excuse them for casting creature-targeted spells this way though.
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 806
    Some additional experimentation reveals that you cannot cast neither spells nor abilities on an invisible character even when he is attacking an enemy. On the other hand, the AI seems to be able to cast anything on you. In my original example, after a couple of fireballs, the guardian casts a flame arrow and a flame strike on Minsc, which are not AoE spells (or abilities).

    So, in a nutshell, the AI cheats to keep the game balanced. Hmmm... Cheesy.
    jackjack
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Thankfully it isn't all of the enemies!
    mf2112Alonsololien
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    Can a player target enemies under Improved Invisibility by using Chain Contingency?
    jackjack
  • sluckerssluckers Member Posts: 280
    edited May 2016
    It is an engine limitation. The enemies still cannot hit you with spells that require direct targeting (like dire charm, ray of enfeeble, finger of death), but can still use other spells. The game forces them to target the character because, as has been said, they don't have the ability to ground target. It is the way the game approximates the behaviour of a player, who can target the ground when enemies go invisible (because they know where they just were).

    This is also why enemies will cast spells on themselves when you are invisible, hoping to hit you if you are nearby or trying to sneak up on them. They can't target the ground, so they target themselves with castings like like 'remove magic', confusion, hopelessness, chaos... etc. AOE stuff.

    So while enemies can target you when you are invisible, they cannot hit you with anything that you can't hit them with when they go invisible (the guardian's flame strike, for example, is useless when you're invisible).

    There may be claims that such spells have been used on invisible characters, but I personally have never seen this happen. Not once. I can only speak for myself, though. This is my best understanding of the behaviour you're asking about, and maybe it doesn't apply to enemies that naturally see through invisibility.

    Every time that I thought I had seen one of my characters being targeted while invisible, it was because they were no longer invisible. During a battle it is easy to miss the pitifully quiet 'woosh' sound of the invisibility wearing off, or the subtle change in transparency of the character.
    semiticgoddess
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 806
    sluckers said:

    The enemies still cannot hit you with spells that require direct targeting

    Yes, they can and they do. I attach a saved game where you can test it easily:

    1. Aerie casts Improved Invisibility on Minsc. She's level 9, so the spell lasts 12 rounds, which gives you plenty of time for testing.
    2. Minsc opens the door located westwards (coordinates 2531, 967).
    3. Minsc attacks the guardian in the room with his arrows. The guardian turns hostile.
    4. The guardian attacks Minsc with fireballs, a flame arrows and a flame strike, all of them targeted at Minsc.

    Minsc has remained invisible the whole time and still the guardian has cast two spells which require direct targeting at him.
    BelgarathMTH
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,428

    It really is for balance.

    With non detection and improved invis, you can easily break and stall even some liches unmodded

    Wait, wait a minute. I've always heard, from the first time I played the game years ago, that the non-detection spell didn't work with invisibility spells, just with Hide in Shadows. Are you telling me that it's been made to actually work now?

    ...and I suppose even if you weren't, you could do the same thing with Spell Immunity: Divination, so yeah, Liches need something to not become a laughingstock.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Arduljackjacksemiticgoddess
  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    I hated that part about true sight when I tried SR v4 because it forced my mages to use spell slots for it in order to debuff mages, whereas I usually have my priests use it
    jackjack
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • SirBatinceSirBatince Member Posts: 882

    It really is for balance.

    With non detection and improved invis, you can easily break and stall even some liches unmodded

    Wait, wait a minute. I've always heard, from the first time I played the game years ago, that the non-detection spell didn't work with invisibility spells, just with Hide in Shadows. Are you telling me that it's been made to actually work now?

    ...and I suppose even if you weren't, you could do the same thing with Spell Immunity: Divination, so yeah, Liches need something to not become a laughingstock.
    nondetection seems extremely buggy or random. On monsters that have no inbuilt anti-invis, when they cast TS there seems to be a 50/50 chance of nondetect working on not.

    I have no idea how ND really works to this day.
  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    @subtledoctor It was some time ago when the beta went public instead of "ask for it and get a link". I dreaded the forever-beta state like v3 anyway and that seems to be the way it is taking.

    On topic I agree it's kinda cheating when the AI targets ground AoE spells on 1 of your characters but it can be cheesed easily with boots of speed/haste and switching equipment for immunities/resistances while the spell is still flying. I haven't played unmodded in a while but I think SCS replaces these genies' fireballs with Sunfire with makes more sense.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Alonso said:

    So, in a nutshell, the AI cheats to keep the game balanced. Hmmm... Cheesy.

    In a nutshell, there wasn't advanced AI concepts such as we know today back in 2001. Mods have added better AI handling, but even mods can only do so much. It's of the problem of an engine this old.

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited June 2016
    In the DDGUARD scripts, those spells are coded as ForceSpell, not as CastSpell. Thus, they can not be interrupted, and they will always be cast as long as the guard is alive and the condition is met.

    To cast it, the condition is only seeing the enemy, it does not check for if the enemy is untargettable (improved invisible but made an attack) or not. When you are improved invisible and have made an attack, enemies 'see' you and can attack you normally (abeit you enjoy ac and save bonuses) but normal spells can not be cast on you. (Unless the caster can normally see invisible, like a dragon or demon/deva) This script ignores that condition via ForceSpell.

    Enemy ai can not target an area. Thus, old mods like tactics and such made liches to summon a rat or a creature with no animation and shower it with wiltings/comets to hit the pc with area effect if the pc is under pro from undead effect. Scs mod makes casters cast chaos/emotion spells on themselves when they can not target enemies, hoping to catch an enemy with the area effect.

    Enemies that can see invisible, like dragons/demons/devils/devas/planetars, are not affected by improved invisibiltiy and can cast at you. You still enjoy ac and save bonuses from improved invisibility, though. And you can backstab them when attacking from invisibility (unless they are immune to backstab, like some dragons) but positioning can be tricky as they can always see you.
    semiticgoddessjoluvAlonsoJuliusBorisov
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 806
    OK, get it. I guess letting the game cheat a little bit is better than allowing an engine limitation to totally break the game.
    jackjack
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