BG2 most natural party - and a suited protagonist [minor spoilers]
Moonheart
Member Posts: 520
In another thread, I have exposed a theory of mine like about the party that probably served as a benchmark for BG2 and that the devs expected to be the most probable party selected by the players.
This party is:
- our protagonist
- Imoen
- Jaheira
- Minsc
- Aerie
- Hear'Dalis
Everyone that have been through the chapter 1 with attention will have noticed that the game states that before being captured by Irenicus, our protagonist traveled during months with a party including Imoen, Jaheira, Minsc, Dynaheir and Khalid.
This game litteraly throw us this party to the face by putting 3 of those companion in the very starting room in the game, and explanation about the fate of the 2 others in the first dungeon.
It is kinda obvious that unless you play the trauma due to experiments card heavily, you are expected to trust and rely on your old allies.
Imoen is also the central character of SoA, and Jaheira the character with the most developped romance and side quest of all BG2.
During the chapter 1, there is two other companions recruitable:
- Yoshimo is a temporary replacement, given during chapter 1 and losely tied to the party, to Imoen which will be absent during the chapter 2. The game is made such as, as soon, you recover her, Yoshimo gets out of the picture
- Aerie which is located at the very center of the area you reach immediatly when you get out of the first dungon, in a quest which is the easiest quest of all SoA, balanced to be completed by a low level, incomplete party
Aerie acts in fact as a replacement of Dynaheir in both the story (Minsc will take her as her new "witch" after the recent lost of Dynaheir, his old witch) and skills. She's a mage, which brings something that was missing in the old set-up: cleric spells
Hear'Dalis is more unclear as a natural member of this team for many people I think, because they don't gather together all the odd facts concerning how the game manage him
1- He's the only character which has a recruitment quest triggered blatantly by events due to the sole fact to play a core character in the party: if you play with Aerie long enough, her uncle will summon her, then act you to help a friend of his, friend which is nothing less than the starting character of Hear'Dalis main quest
2- He's the only character that will make up for a rejection of a companion's love interest: if you chose Jaheira over Aeria, he will become the boyfriend of the last one, and make her happy
3- Haer'Dalis brings to the party the pickpocket skill that Imoen doesn't have, use weapons that no other do in the 4 other companions, and bring tanking capabilities and usefulness for self-targeting arcane buffs scrolls: in one word, he perfectly blends into this party
With this party, you end with a perfectly coherent whole that is extremly if not impossible to match otherwise:
- Storywise, as all those characters have a good reason to stay with your protagonist and not just "you helped me once, so I'll follow you to the bottom of the pit of hells": Imoen is your sister, Jaheira and Minsc your old friend who have a grudge against the same foe than you, Aerie is the new witch of Minsc, and Haer'Dalais loves Aerie so he will not let her go in dangerous place without him
- Strategicaly-wise, as all those characters have no redundancy and bring something the team is missing: Imoen bring disarm traps and lockpicking, Jaheira brings druid spells, Minsc physical attack power, Aerie cleric spells, Haer'Dalis brings pickpocketting and tanking... they also use all different weapons of predilection
At first, I thought that have 3 characters to use arcane magic could be redundant, but it is not really if you dispatch the scrolls coherently between the three:
- Haer'Dalis, as a blademaster, is the one who has the most use of self-targeting arcane buffs
- Imoen, which is an utilitary character made to disable threat, can have all the debuff spells
- Aerie, being a cleric, can get all the buffs that can be thrown on party members
This is all about this little theory.
I don't know if I convainced you or not, but personaly the more I think about it while progressing in my playthrough, the more I think that, as the start of the development of SoA, this party served as a reference, explaining why it is blending better together than any other.
Your thoughts on the matter are welcome, I'm very curious to hear them.
Also, I was thinking about this: which would be the protagonist class that will blend the best into this "natural" party that I theorize about?
I kinda like the idea of a paladin. The protagonist is best served as being a high-charisma character, and paladin is a natural leader class, plus it allows to have someone to use Carsomyr
This party is:
- our protagonist
- Imoen
- Jaheira
- Minsc
- Aerie
- Hear'Dalis
Everyone that have been through the chapter 1 with attention will have noticed that the game states that before being captured by Irenicus, our protagonist traveled during months with a party including Imoen, Jaheira, Minsc, Dynaheir and Khalid.
This game litteraly throw us this party to the face by putting 3 of those companion in the very starting room in the game, and explanation about the fate of the 2 others in the first dungeon.
It is kinda obvious that unless you play the trauma due to experiments card heavily, you are expected to trust and rely on your old allies.
Imoen is also the central character of SoA, and Jaheira the character with the most developped romance and side quest of all BG2.
During the chapter 1, there is two other companions recruitable:
- Yoshimo is a temporary replacement, given during chapter 1 and losely tied to the party, to Imoen which will be absent during the chapter 2. The game is made such as, as soon, you recover her, Yoshimo gets out of the picture
- Aerie which is located at the very center of the area you reach immediatly when you get out of the first dungon, in a quest which is the easiest quest of all SoA, balanced to be completed by a low level, incomplete party
Aerie acts in fact as a replacement of Dynaheir in both the story (Minsc will take her as her new "witch" after the recent lost of Dynaheir, his old witch) and skills. She's a mage, which brings something that was missing in the old set-up: cleric spells
Hear'Dalis is more unclear as a natural member of this team for many people I think, because they don't gather together all the odd facts concerning how the game manage him
1- He's the only character which has a recruitment quest triggered blatantly by events due to the sole fact to play a core character in the party: if you play with Aerie long enough, her uncle will summon her, then act you to help a friend of his, friend which is nothing less than the starting character of Hear'Dalis main quest
2- He's the only character that will make up for a rejection of a companion's love interest: if you chose Jaheira over Aeria, he will become the boyfriend of the last one, and make her happy
3- Haer'Dalis brings to the party the pickpocket skill that Imoen doesn't have, use weapons that no other do in the 4 other companions, and bring tanking capabilities and usefulness for self-targeting arcane buffs scrolls: in one word, he perfectly blends into this party
With this party, you end with a perfectly coherent whole that is extremly if not impossible to match otherwise:
- Storywise, as all those characters have a good reason to stay with your protagonist and not just "you helped me once, so I'll follow you to the bottom of the pit of hells": Imoen is your sister, Jaheira and Minsc your old friend who have a grudge against the same foe than you, Aerie is the new witch of Minsc, and Haer'Dalais loves Aerie so he will not let her go in dangerous place without him
- Strategicaly-wise, as all those characters have no redundancy and bring something the team is missing: Imoen bring disarm traps and lockpicking, Jaheira brings druid spells, Minsc physical attack power, Aerie cleric spells, Haer'Dalis brings pickpocketting and tanking... they also use all different weapons of predilection
At first, I thought that have 3 characters to use arcane magic could be redundant, but it is not really if you dispatch the scrolls coherently between the three:
- Haer'Dalis, as a blademaster, is the one who has the most use of self-targeting arcane buffs
- Imoen, which is an utilitary character made to disable threat, can have all the debuff spells
- Aerie, being a cleric, can get all the buffs that can be thrown on party members
This is all about this little theory.
I don't know if I convainced you or not, but personaly the more I think about it while progressing in my playthrough, the more I think that, as the start of the development of SoA, this party served as a reference, explaining why it is blending better together than any other.
Your thoughts on the matter are welcome, I'm very curious to hear them.
Also, I was thinking about this: which would be the protagonist class that will blend the best into this "natural" party that I theorize about?
I kinda like the idea of a paladin. The protagonist is best served as being a high-charisma character, and paladin is a natural leader class, plus it allows to have someone to use Carsomyr
6
Comments
I think that your idea is perfectly viable.
Indeed, Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen (Yoshimo while she is missing) are the natural choice, "adviced" by how the game goes. And when you get out of the starting dungeon you indeed see the Circus quest with Aerie.
You reasons behind Haer'Dalis are refreshing, thank you for sharing.
But I read somewhere on this forum that a canon party for BG2 should be CHARNAME, Imoen/Yoshimo, Jaheira, Minsc, Aerie and Keldorn changed for Sarevok in ToB. Another idea is that only CHARNAME, Imoen/Yoshimo, Jaheira, Minsc are a part of a canon party for BG2, others differ.
Also, what about a situation if you are not a goody two shoes? Then you simply ought to include Edwin and Viconia into your party, and can't take Minsc or Aerie as they're good.
@Moonheart I agree with your Aerie point, but the last spot is not that easy to give.
You used the argument that Aerie gets summoned at some point to trigger Haer'Dalis quest. That's true, but similarly, Delon will come at some point if Minsc is in your party, thus triggering the Umar Hills quest, during which you can recruit Mazzy. So Mazzy would be as legitimate as Haer'Dalis. You mentioned the love interest argument. True as well, but that's granted your PC is a male.
The encounter with Neera will also occur about every playthrough except if you specifically dodge the area of the cutscene, same goes for Rasaad, both are potential love interests and you should have met both in BG1. And you need to have them to do their respective quests.
You'll also certainly meet Nalia, though she does not know you and has no romance.
The cannon last spot is not uncontested, though Sarevok feels pretty legit to me as ToB 6th character, even more so that he can redeem so the overall "good" alignment of the team would not be that good an argument.
Edwin is probably the one that is the closest from "canon", as Yoshimo leads you to the place he's living. Also, Edwin was Dynaheir counterpart in BG1, and will cause Minsc to leave, so you'll end up with a party of charname, jaheira, yoshimo and edwin...
Without being canon, I agree that you will pick Viconia next. She has no such "bond" that all the other companions I've pointed out, but she is the only evil cleric available...
First, Delon doesn't exactly trigger the quest Mazzy is in...it just make you go to the place where it takes place, you could complete Delon's case without meeting Mazzy, while you can't complete Qaile's case without meeting AND getting Haer'Dalis loyalty.
And if you play a female, Haer'Dalis will still try to seduce Aeris, there will be just a lot less of banters around it, since your protagonist is not involved That's true for ToB yes, but I can't see something called canon when he's part of an extension, something optional per definition.
You can complete the quest without meeting Mazzy but that would not be "natural" since the shadow jailor mentions her and holds a key and there's a locked door which it was guarding right next to him.
ToB is not exactly a typical extension since it is tightly linked to SoA and continues the same story (which is unfinished otherwise). It does not tell another story with the same protagonist, it completes the same tale. That's very different from TotSC, for instance, which only adds bonus, unimpactful content to BG1, or MotB which tells an story unrelated to classic NwN2 campaign though with a different character.
While I agree that the 'canon' party includes Imoen, Minsc and Jahiera I would argue that Vicky and Edwin are not "extra pieces" so much as planned alternatives to account for different party selections from BG1. Further, I would state that any one of the NPC's in SoA have as much reasoning for 'canon' as Aerie or HD... You will run in to Nalia and Anomen before Aerie if you follow the game direction and go to the slums as opposed to starting off questing without taking the chance to get your bearings and equip yourself somewhat so there could be an argument they are just as likely to run in to your party first as Aerie is.
My personal take (and just my humble opinion) is there is absolutely a 'good canon' and 'evil canon' with multiple additional NPC's to round out the parties personality and play style, depending on Charnames alignment, class and the players preferences there are countless combinations you could have. However, Viconia's story is just as deep as Jahiera's. Korgan has just as intriguing banters with Mazzy as Minsc has with Aerie (perhaps more so!) Valygar also has some great conversations with Mazzy! Saying that no other PC's compare story wise to Aerie/HD or Jahiera, Minsc, and Imoen is a disservice to the writers who absolutely spent just as much time fleshing out the various other NPC's. One of the biggest things that makes the games so replayable (at least in SoA) is how changing even 1 party member and nothing else can end up giving potentially dozens of new conversations. Even rotating the last slot or two between various NPC's will not give a 'complete' picture because you miss the interactions of the various NPC's being rotated!
My 2 cents...
I mean, the game gives us a range of "Evil" character that indeed would not fit neutral or good alignment. Viconia, Hexxat, Korgan, Edwin, Dorn and Sarevok.
The last of them can only join in ToB, and Dorn's the one who gives the quest.
My opinion on the last four:
Viconia would not do that. She can be cruel, that's true, but that's never without reason. She's cruel in vengeance etc... But killing someone you've never met at their wedding is not something she'd do.
Hexxat would not either. She does not enjoy killing people. Just that she'll do it only if it is necessary for her survival.
Korgan is crazy and evil and bloothirsty but he still has limits which he mentions in his banters with Mazzy (my memory is blur but I think he says he would not kill children). I don't think he'd kill someone at their wedding, especially when the reward is power offered by a demon and not money.
Edwin would back down from nothing if he can get more power. He'd do that if the outcome is worth it.
Overall, only Edwin (and Dorn the quest giver) would be evil enough to do that willingly. You have to be a pretty evil Bhaalspawn to justify doing this quest.
For me the sixth slot is a toss up between Nalia and Anomen simply because of how early you find them and their alignment.
Every NPC has banter and a story, so I feel you can make a case for pretty much every good/neutral NPC out there.
To be fair the only character that contributes next to nothing in SoA is Imoen, and still almost everyone agrees she's a canon member..
On a similar note Edwin and Viconia are the most natural group for an evil party along with Imoen (who fits in anywhere mostly).
It would be incredible if the game at the beginning of BG2 realized that you were evil and switched NPCs accordingly to the group that was evil rather than giving us the default pairing of Jaheria and Misnc. Imagine waking up in the dungeon only to have Edwin and Viconia in the cages behind you - you can only imagine how pissed those two would get at Irencus and you (as they were with you when it all happened and it's your fault that the group was targeted.) The dead party members would be Kagain or Shar Tael or whoever was evil in BG1 but never again shows up - so dead companions - even if this was needed because I imagine Edwin and Vic would easily want to get revenge for this indignity towards them.
I can never see Edwin join up with Irenicus, but rather prove that he is the stronger Wizard. Joining Irenicus would look like he is giving up to a greater force, now does that sound like our argogant Edwin?
Well, our interpretations of that character may be different.
I will answer with the same thing as in my previous post, I think it would be more beneficial for Edwin at the given time, having no alliances in Athkatla or so. Relying on the Bhaalspawn's compentens to gain a wealthy amount of gold and magical items, and of course knowledge and Arcana. I don't see why Irenicus though even would consider working together with a mage he could slay with a lift of a finger, he has Bodhi and doesn't really need anyone else given how powerful he is.
That's the problem with evil parties, in almost all RPG games.
On the other hand, they have seen Irennicus fail to kill the protagonist a few times. He has now been disconnected from the tree and there is an army of angry elves waiting to make him dead. Even if the protagonist fails, Irennicus may not win
All of them have at least wisdom or intelligence. I think even if it entered their heads, they know what the outcome is going to be.
Fighter - Nalia
Mage - Valygar
Thief - Edwin
Cleric - Keldorn
Druid - Cernd
Ranger - Mazzy
Bard - Haer'Dalis
Paladin - ok, so paladin doesn't work... maybe try to de-douche Anomen?
Total guff of course, but you don't end up with too many unwieldy parties (with the obvious exception of the Druid, who would have 3 tree huggers and a Ranger).
Then I realised none of these included Jan and abandoned the concept entirely!
As an aside:
In my runs, Minsc always dies heroically in battle with Irenicus... coincidentally creating a convenient opening for the 'vok.
That said, I ain't the biggest fan of "the one party to rule them all" story-wise, or in other ways, since it has me playing with many of the characters I used or over-used in the past.
This thread, however, which I have derailed enough by now, has raised some interesting points. I especially like the "stronghold for 6th spot"-idea. At the end of the day it stays a matter of taste for me, since otherwise this game would be FF XIII, which forces a tube-shaped storyline and remade party down your throat. 'nuff said!