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Why CRPGs are so niche compared to Bethesda games and JRPGs?

ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425
edited April 2017 in Off-Topic
Have you wondered why computer RPGs never manage to get even half of the popularity of other indipendent games like Undertale? I don't mention the juggernaut that is FNAF because that would be an unfair fight.

Post edited by ShapiroKeatsDarkMage on
«13

Comments

  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425
    edited June 2016
    I would have liked a more neutral response than a bitter RPG Codex-flavoured elitist but thanks.

    I think is due to the ''nerdy'' nature of the genre. You kinda have to get used to the complex ruleset and quests in order to enjoy the game.

  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,761

    I would have liked a more neutral response than a bitter RPG Codex-flavoured elitist but thanks.

    Do not thank me if you aren't thankful. What I said, minus my bias towards Bathesba and mobas, are pretty much facts. cRPGs require time, resources, more often than not good writiers and above all else they're not in the demand.

  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425
    edited June 2016
    It isn't just that, like i said before, its hard to get into this kind of games due to the complex rules.

    FNAF and Undertale are sucessful partly because they have a simple and straightforward gameplay.

    That and because western rpgs use the fantasy setting a bit too much.

    O_Bruce
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,761

    It isn't just that, like i said before, its hard to get into this kind of games due to the complex rules.

    I agree, it is harder to get into playing cRPGS than, for example, platformer game, shotter or other type of game that requires mainly player's dexterity. For varous of reasons, one of which being that in order to appreciate and cRPG game, more often than not, a time investment is required. Sometimes mechanics can be complicated, sometimes tables with statistics are not encouraging. Sometimes the vast ammount of lore one needs to understand to get the "feeling" of the world around player characters. Things like that can scare of people who aren't prepared for it.

    Hence the demand for cRPGs isn't that great, despite game industry's customer base growing.

    mf2112Wormking
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Why are so many crpgs set in GenericFantasyland(TM)?

    ShapiroKeatsDarkMageNimranCrevsDaakAyiekie
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,230
    My favorite type of video games is computer games, be it RPGs, strategy, fps, whatever. That being said, a double edged sword aspect of computer games is that they keep taking advantage the latest, most powerful systems and thus require you to upgrade your hardware in order to play the latest games. I have no desire to spend money to upgrade my computer just to play a game; and I have no desire to spend money on the latest dedicated gaming computer/computer hardware. I personally have a computer that is 7 years old but was the best and greatest (short of buying a gaming computer) of the time...now it can barely surf the Internet.
    Console games, and even new phone games, are limited by the specs of the system that they are developed for. The lifetime of console generations seems to be averaged about 3-4 years, maybe less depending on the market, but computers are obsolete by the time they hit the market.
    I am dying to play pillars of eternity but I don't have any desire to get a new computer, and upgrade to Windows 8 or 10... I get enough of microsoft's crap at work. I want to buy an apple, but I will probably get a free windows vista computer and put Linux mint on...just haven't had the time.
    cRPGs are absolutely the best genre of all video games in my opinion. I personally love the time investment that they require, the immersion, the story telling. But I do agree that they consume more resources than competitive console games with likely less short term profit (but not long term!!!).
    Just my two cents.

    dunbar
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    I disagree about the time investment. The reason I don't play most competitive games is because it takes way too long to get good. Teenagers are playing these games 7-11 and I can't challenge that kind of investment.

    CrevsDaakDragonKing
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited June 2016
    I've never seen the point in multiplayer games on computers. If I was to play with other people, I will have friemds round. The computer is there for when I want to avoid human contact.

    the_spyder
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,230
    I agree about multiplayer. For multiplayer I definitely prefer consoles. Computer games are times of zenophohia and isolation, to cut myself off from society and reality.
    I suck too much at multiplayer games, and single player games, to be competitive...this may or may not have something to do with it. :D

  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 677
    edited June 2016
    Shooters in multiplayer for me has to be done with a Mouse and keyboard, that's the only natural way for me to play them imo.

    I've never really been that much into console games, except final fantasy and a few other obscure jrpgs.
    Fardragon said:

    Why are so many crpgs set in GenericFantasyland(TM)?

    Although I don't enjoy reading generic fantasy all that much, playing in a generic fantasy world isn't that much of a problem for me. Experiencing a story through a world where you control the actions of the characters to some degree, makes things a bit different for me.

  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,473
    edited June 2016
    Having read and taken in all of the above I think that 'time investment', both from the developers and the players, could be the overriding factor. For the developers "time is money" is as apt as it ever was, and these days people generally (and in this case, players specifically) seem to expect 'instant gratification', which a crpg doesn't provide.

    From my personal perspective, these games fall into the same category as Bridge and Chess simulators. They are programmes that simulate games which pre-date personal computers - and what they are trying to simulate is the human component. The most glaring shortfall of BG compared to PnP for example is the lack of a human DM.

    In many respects games like BG are looking backwards and trying to fit an old game into new technology, whereas other games are developed from scratch with, and for, the new technology.

    mashedtaters
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    dunbar said:

    Having read and taken in all of the above I think that 'time investment', both from the developers and the players, could be the overriding factor. For the developers "time is money" is as apt as it ever was, and these days people generally (and in this case, players specifically) seem to expect 'instant gratification', which a crpg doesn't provide.

    From my personal perspective, these games fall into the same category as Bridge and Chess simulators. They are programmes that simulate games which pre-date personal computers - and what they are trying to simulate is the human component. The most glaring shortfall of BG compared to PnP for example is the lack of a human DM.

    In many respects games like BG are looking backwards and trying to fit an old game into new technology, whereas other games are developed from scratch with, and for, the new technology.

    I always viewed myself (or one of my friends hosting BG) as the DM since we can load mods to make the game rules and outcomes different. I just view the computer as an assistant.

    mashedtaters
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    batoor said:



    Fardragon said:

    Why are so many crpgs set in GenericFantasyland(TM)?

    Although I don't enjoy reading generic fantasy all that much, playing in a generic fantasy world isn't that much of a problem for me. Experiencing a story through a world where you control the actions of the characters to some degree, makes things a bit different for me.
    Ah, but maybe one of the reasons crpgs aren't more popular is a lot of people don't like GenericFantasyland(TM)?

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,660
    Fardragon, look for your name for the part directed directly at you buddy.


    Oooh, Oooh, can I play?

    Lets start with the biggest let down that is found in most CRPG, the setting. 90% of the time it is a generic Eu0rocentric setting that we've seen a thousand times. Now, all crpg aren't like this, but quite a lot are and they tend to pull so much from civilization to creatures from the same repeating cultures (Greek/roman/norse/occasionally the middle east such as egypt) over and over again. Even people (like myself) who do enjoy these fantasy type scenes get tired of seeing them and they dominate the market so much that its just saturated. Why are so many games doing this? Because its what western society has shoved down our throats since the beginning of time! Its what everyone knows, even if they know little to nothing about the culture the game is taking its design from, they can recognize it; "oh hey, medieval Europe, Rome, and ancient Greece!" Hell, show the average westerner can't tell the difference between Chinese, Japanese, and Korean culture.

    Oh hey look, I was able to say all that without referencing Africa, yay me :)


    Secondly, when crpg are actually based off tabletop rpg such as dungeons and dragons, shadowrun, or world or darkness. People who aren't really familiar with the source material is usually alienated from people who are. When I first played both shadowrun and vampires the masquerade, I didn't know anything out either source material by the time I finished both games, I literally had to binge google things to try to get a better feel for both worlds, both worlds which i kinda fell in love with. I always knew about DnD, beyond its dragons though I really didn't are about the source material. That didn't stop me from researching more into the world after i played and beat bg one, though it took me actually playing bg to gain interest in the drow, and thay. It also didn't make me any less alienated on these forums, I'll tell you that. I mean I can talk about dragons... and their gods... but that is about it >.>


    thirdly...
    As touched on before, mechanics... I play smite and I care for smite because love is too strong of a word. Anyone who things competitive games like moba's don't require time to get into, understand the mechanics of each character, understand which character counter which, understand which items counter which, understand when to fight, when to retreat, who to carry because your freaking teammate is god -beep- idiot who only knows how to run and die instead of learning -beep- positioning or lettin the -beep- tank initiate or how to follow up the -beep- tank or... or... -beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep-

    Excuse, my point is, you're lying through your teeth, stop that.

    But, just like moba, crpg have set mechanics and strategies that one has to learn and invest time into. Unlike most moba's and bethstudio (don't care what anyone says, tes is still fun), a lot of crpg mechanics aren't accommodated with fast pace action. This is something that turns people off to TBS also, so we have this fun complex mechanic but it is not stimulating to some. And personally, I actually hate bg's combat animation. its a tbs, that has just random move swings instead of having the actions being displayed when the actual dice is rolled of that action. Yea, yea, I know it can be turned off now, but I don't play bg now.




    @Fardragon
    For you maybe sir, but for some of us, a computer isn't just for isolating ourselves from humanity. Some of our friends lives hundreds of miles away and we play games together through the computer because not every has the money to waste on a console, and then waste to pay monthly fees for online on that console ontop of paying a monthly fee for our internet.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I don't have a console, but I live near London, so there is no shortage of people round about...

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,660
    @Fardragon
    Yea see I tend to be antisocial ever since I was little so I barely interacted with people around me. And most friends I did have, rarely lived around the way. They were always people from ththe last school I went to.

  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 864
    Fardragon said:


    Ah, but maybe one of the reasons crpgs aren't more popular is a lot of people don't like GenericFantasyland(TM)?

    I'd like to think that's true, but look at the success of Skyrim and Game of Thrones, to name just two. And, to be honest, Lord of the Rings (pioneering the genre doesn't mean you don't exemplify it, after all).

    People's appetite for this particular kind of fantasy is limited (compared to, say, superhero fantasies), but the largest part of the mainstream English-speaking market that does want it seems to be just fine and dandy with GenericFantasyLand.

    The rest of us just get to be nostalgic about Morrowind or the occasional JRPG with an interesting setting.
    :)

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,660
    @Ayiekie
    With the exception of gof (i don't know much about it so I can't really make this statement, I know it was a book but I don't know how popular that book is), Lotr and TES both are popular duo to the fact they both have a strong following fan base. Technically a lot of things in this day in age actually survive because it is usually tied to a strong fanbase. How does superman, batman, spiderman, and the fantastic four, continue to get movies mad despite how bad some of the movies have done in the box office or just how generally bad some of them were? Because they are tied directly to a following, no matter how bad something is, a big enough following will continue to put money forth at least once to see it.

    LOTR is massive because, lets be honest, it was the book that started many of the modern day fantasy tropes. you can take the most garbage plot, and as long as you slap LOTR on it, toss in some iconic characters for flavor, and place it in Middle-Earth, fans will go to see it just because its LOTR, Star wars is hands down proof of this. This same thing applies to game to a extent.

    How many people claim to hate oblivion and Skyrim, yet a portion of them still own the game because they are still a fans of the TES series.

    Also you have to take into account, these series are also placed in fantasy worlds based on what the people already know.

    mashedtaters
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,295
    Fardragon said:

    I've never seen the point in multiplayer games on computers. If I was to play with other people, I will have friemds round.

    heroes 3 hotseat pajama parrrtaaayyyyy

    mf2112Skatan
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861

    Have you wondered why computer RPGs never manage to get even half of the popularity of other indipendent games like Undertale? I don't mention the juggernaut that is FNAF because that would be an unfair fight.

    Is "cRPG" really ... = computer (or PC) RPG?

    I've always wondered about that, but you tell me if I got it right! If I got you right, this was an "aha" moment! I won't say heureka, because that involved serious fluid and element physics.

    I would assume because the mainstream RPGs have been such well written and executed games up until now. Some of the best titles in game narrative across all genres have been in RPG.

    However, both Skyrim and DA: Inquisition were day zero console ports - and poor ones, at that, IMO - and my PC gamer heart bleeds on both accounts.

    If the mainstream RPG will further abandon its PC fanciers, I think this discussion will change tack.

  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    I think the market has changed and "computers" now come in multiple flavors with PC's no longer being the majority of computers sold now so smart developers have adapted. Consoles and tablets and phones aren't going to go away. Neither will the PC or Mac. But their market size has shrunk and will likely continue to shrink compared to the first three for gaming purposes.

    I use the PC mostly, but I do like to play on the tablet too in places where the PC can't easily be, if I am out waiting for my wife the tablet is great in the car. I use BlueStacks on the PC to play Android games as well, The Bards Tale is great on the bigger screen and I can use the logitech controller too.

    JuliusBorisov
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    mf2112 said:

    I think the market has changed and "computers" now come in multiple flavors with PC's no longer being the majority of computers sold now so smart developers have adapted. .

    Please mf2112 - when someone tells me a "proper gamer" is this or that - and "hard-core gamer" is a bit more, I reject it, because I think gaming joy is the real criterion.

    Gaming immersion is individual, but gaming joy should be - mind - UNIVERSAL.

    I wish my console bros and sis to love their gaming. I do!

    But the idea that those bros or sis of mine would not think alike with my being a firm PC gamer pains me a lot.

    It does!

    "Market" might have changed, but RPG fandom not that much. Or what say u mf2112?

  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    edited June 2016
    TStael said:

    mf2112 said:

    I think the market has changed and "computers" now come in multiple flavors with PC's no longer being the majority of computers sold now so smart developers have adapted. .

    Please mf2112 - when someone tells me a "proper gamer" is this or that - and "hard-core gamer" is a bit more, I reject it, because I think gaming joy is the real criterion.

    Gaming immersion is individual, but gaming joy should be - mind - UNIVERSAL.

    I wish my console bros and sis to love their gaming. I do!

    But the idea that those bros or sis of mine would not think alike with my being a firm PC gamer pains me a lot.

    It does!

    "Market" might have changed, but RPG fandom not that much. Or what say u mf2112?
    Sorry if I wasn't clear, I am meaning that hard core gamers like me! want to be able to play and enjoy on every platform. :) And smart devs will figure out a way to make it happen.

    As for RPG gamers, my feeling is that we are getting older overall. It doesn't seem like younger people are as common here, I think mostly because RPG's require a bit of time to get to a level of mastery of and there is a wide world of entertainment out there beckoning.

    Post edited by mf2112 on
    JuliusBorisov
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    edited June 2016
    @mf2112 - I think you are a gamer, only. And I mean it most kindly. :smiley:

    But was it not that sort of setting "hard core" gamer aside from PC gamers that allowed DA: Inquisition to be a bleeding heart of disappointment to PC gamers? When BW existed unto then on enthusiasm of PC gamers?

    I just want to say: if corporate game development wants to drop PC gamers, please do it fair n square! Not like DA:I where gameplay for PC and melee CHARs just simply sucks!

    (PS. I envy and love you DA:I fans whom can love melee combat, but I love DA:O and DA2 much better, as PC gamer perso)

    mf2112JuliusBorisov
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    TStael said:

    mf2112 - I think you are a gamer, only. And I mean it most kindly. :smiley:

    But was it not that sort of setting "hard core" gamer aside from PC gamers that allowed DA: Inquisition to be a bleeding heart of disappointment to PC gamers? When BW existed unto then on enthusiasm of PC gamers?

    I just want to say: if corporate game development wants to drop PC gamers, please do it fair n square! Not like DA:I where gameplay for PC and melee CHARs just simply sucks!

    (PS. I envy and love you DA:I fans whom can love melee combat, but I love DA:O and DA2 much better, as PC gamer perso)

    Well, I guess I am not sure what distinguishes "hard core". 15-20 hours minimum a week playing multiple games on different days certainly makes me "hard core" in my wife's eyes. :D Plus more hours on several game forums reading and posting. :p All I know is I enjoy my time and I don't intend on stopping any time soon.

    JuliusBorisovjoluv
  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    mf2112 said:



    Well, I guess I am not sure what distinguishes "hard core". 15-20 hours minimum a week playing multiple games on different days certainly makes me "hard core" in my wife's eyes. :D Plus more hours on several game forums reading and posting. :p All I know is I enjoy my time and I don't intend on stopping any time soon.

    If you told me you do Angry Birds on a tram, I'd find you my fellow gamer.

    But when you tell me you game deeply, I'd expect you to understand why PC gamers quite love their platform.

  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    TStael said:

    mf2112 said:



    Well, I guess I am not sure what distinguishes "hard core". 15-20 hours minimum a week playing multiple games on different days certainly makes me "hard core" in my wife's eyes. :D Plus more hours on several game forums reading and posting. :p All I know is I enjoy my time and I don't intend on stopping any time soon.

    If you told me you do Angry Birds on a tram, I'd find you my fellow gamer.

    But when you tell me you game deeply, I'd expect you to understand why PC gamers quite love their platform.
    I am not giving up my PC. :D I use it regularly for gaming and I don't intend on stopping. I just see that other platforms have grown technologically to the point that they are viable for more than just angry birds. :) I think there is plenty of room for both and I appreciate devs who can do both well. Most can't.

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    mf2112 said:

    TStael said:

    mf2112 said:



    If you told me you do Angry Birds on a tram, I'd find you my fellow gamer.

    But when you tell me you game deeply, I'd expect you to understand why PC gamers quite love their platform.

    I am not giving up my PC. :D I use it regularly for gaming and I don't intend on stopping. I just see that other platforms have grown technologically to the point that they are viable for more than just angry birds. :) I think there is plenty of room for both and I appreciate devs who can do both well. Most can't.
    There is plenty of room. But I think you are willfully obtuse about PC gamers, as if, say PC fans should not be cold and bothered about Inquisition. Why so, if?

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    I am sorry if I am defensive, but PC gaming is deeply loved. If it is convenient for tech developers is less importnat, I think.

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