The most cheesy gear item of BG2
Moonheart
Member Posts: 520
Ok, let's do this for items too.
Disclaimer: 'Cheesy' is a subjective term, so anyone will have a different opinion... that's why a poll can be fun, everyone can have its own reason to declare something cheesy.
Also, I'm aware that more items could be put in the options but the forum won't let me put more than 10, so... let's do with those ones
Disclaimer: 'Cheesy' is a subjective term, so anyone will have a different opinion... that's why a poll can be fun, everyone can have its own reason to declare something cheesy.
Also, I'm aware that more items could be put in the options but the forum won't let me put more than 10, so... let's do with those ones
- The most cheesy gear item of BG265 votes
- Vhailor's Helm4.62%
- Robe of Vecna30.77%
- Shield of Balduran21.54%
- Cloak of Mirroring12.31%
- Celestial Fury1.54%
- Staff of Magi13.85%
- Crom Fraeyr1.54%
- Carsomyr6.15%
- any +1APR off-hand (Belm, Scarlet Ninja-to)3.08%
- the dreaded Wand of Cloudkill !4.62%
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Comments
Every item on your list is good, but one could still build a nearly as good fighter/Paladin/Whatever without it.
Robe of Vecna makes a mage incomparably more powerful than a same level mage with no Robe of Vecna, and that, in all situation.
Wand of Cloudkill allows some classes to win fights they simply would have no way of winning otherwise though, E.G., a solo Shadowdancer really would struggle against Amelyssan, but with Wands of Cloudkill it becomes possible and even easy. But as soon as you give enemies a brain, I.E. , installing SCS, Wands of Cloudkill become much less exploitable, which is why I chose Robe of Vecna in the end.
Otherwise, most of the items you have listed are High power weapon and equipment that is either expensive in the stores, or Hardly acquired (staff of magi, carsomyr.) But I would not call them overpowered really, because they wont win the game for you.
Robe of Vecna have some really great enchantments, BUT it is nothing gamechanging. Like Staff of Magi, it is powerful, but it won't make you automatically win.
Staff of the Magi is a bit cheesy, especially the equipped invisibility if beamdog had made the invisibility a charge instead it would un-cheese it quite quickly and just make it powerful. A lot of the cheesiness depends on how you use the item. Of course if you play and don't want to use the invisibility just don't un-equip and re-equip it. If the mage in the twisted ruins actually used it effectively then most of us would not be getting this amazing staff without spilling a bit more blood. The staff becomes a lot more cheesy if you are using a fighter multi/dual (especially if you grandmaster in staffs) so you can use the dispel on hit. Read if you want to experience a little cheesiness using the staff
Vhailor's Helm - is cheesy, a free simulacrum that a fighter who is not even a mage can use + the cheesiness of the simulacrum itself -- which should have been fixed makes it cheesy for any fighter class mixed or pure. Such a powerful item and then only thing you have to give up is gold not much of a sacrifice to make.
Wand of Cloudkill - wand of cheese especially for monsters that don't want to move - sigh one of these days a developer will fix the AI and the monsters will actually move if hit with a cloud kill and open doors to leave a room full of poisonous gas. Not only is it effective for almost everything in SoA, its cheap, with a ton of charges and there are so many of them. Don't want to get a scratch in the game buy a wand of cloud kill and you will almost win all the fights without taking a hit.
Celestial Fury - for almost the best weapon in the game (actually probably the best weapon before chapter 6) it sure is easy to get - plus it is way too powerful with its stun lock and other bonuses - they should really nerf this weapon. Becomes a lot more cheesy then it already is when you dual wield it especially with something that gives an extra attack - its a katana (should be a two-handed weapon) and you should not be able dual wield it.
Crom Fraeyr - powerful especially if you are dual wielding but only ever so slightly cheesy - the game should make the parts harder to get and possibly make it so it cannot be dual wielded.
Shield and Cloak of cheese - obviously are much to cheesy to be used.
Carsomyr - a little cheesy given the right circumstances: its a holy avenger but the dispel should have a save and really it should be much more difficult to get - would the developers kindly make the dragon more dragon like. As a holy avengers its an artifact like the Staff of the Magi - luckily it is only cheesy if you bring a long a paladin otherwise its a souvenir for the mantle piece. But the 50% magic resistance should be nerfed a bit. And any thief using UAI to wield this should be struck down with lightning by whatever paladin god is looking down.
Not listed but fits in nicely is the wand of monster summoning - really free canon fodder for free - with 50 charges you don't even need to recharge it more than once. Almost as cheesy as the cloudkill wand.
Also wand of fire - really free fireballs - just spam them if you want and soften your foes.
If the mages in the game used it half as effectively in the game we'd be running away more often or getting a lot more bloody to defeat them.
The Wand of Lightning can duplicate the effects of (1) any quick slot item or (2) any on-self spell or item. At the beginning of the game, this means firing off a 60d6 Sunfire spell or a Mass Cure spell for 6d8+60 HP. At the end of the game, this means casting Wish 6 times at once.
Besides those two extremes, it has many other uses as well, from creating extra copies of the Book of Daily Spell to generating the Death Ray Zorcher (by far the highest-damage attack in the entire saga, dealing thousands of damage in seconds) to duplicating kit abilities like Boon of Lathander and Called Shot, allowing a Generic Archer->Mage to drain 6 Strength per hit. There are more uses for the wand than I can describe.
No other item has as much damage output as the Wand of Lightning. No other item is as versatile as the Wand of Lightning. And because the WoL trick doesn't take charges from the wand and you get a free copy in Chateau Irenicus, the Wand of Lightning, unlike all the other items on this list, costs you no money and requires zero risk to obtain.
That said, the Wand of Lightning isn't the only thing that was accidentally cheesy. I doubt the devs intended that Firkraag could be killed offscreen by Cloudkill charges, and I'm sure it's a bug that clones were able to bypass summoning and trap limits. Not all the items in the poll are cheesy by design. Some were mistakes!
I also wouldn't say BG2 items and spells are much more cheesy than BG1 items and spells. BG1 might not have had the Robe of Vecna or Project Image, but it did have the Cloak of Algernon and Sleep, both of which are equally game-breaking in BG1 (and are also easier to get!). The real reason BG2 has more cheesy items is because BG2 has more items overall, not because the devs were more loose about limiting cheese. BG2 has more underused, merchant-fodder items as well. For every Belm, there is a Rashad's Talon.
I actually think it speaks to the complexity and intricacy of the game that the most powerful items in the game range from the clearly and intentionally overpowered Carsomyr, to the surprisingly and accidentally overpowered Wand of Lightning. If you think about it, the Wand of Lightning trick is a very minor bug. All it does is fiddle with targeting. The true power of the Wand of Lightning lies not in the item's stats, but in the player's inventiveness.
The Shield of Balduran and the Robe of Vecna were never intended to be part of the original game, they were originally exclusive to the Collector's Edition. You know, the edition that people paid more for as a show of support for the developers who worked their asses off trying to make the game. If you're going to go on and on about how OP these items are, you might as well include just about every other item from Deidre's and Joluv's stock. These items are clearly out of place in BG2.
They were made available to the masses later on, because BG2 was a game by gamers for gamers (the people originally behind the game were doctors, they weren't doing this just for the money), ie, "fun" and "enjoyment" took precedence over balance and difficulty.
Surprise, BG2 was made by people who studied actual people and then put that knowledge to use in making their game.
The Staff of the Magi was the supposed to be the player's reward for completing a lengthy quest spanning 6 game chapters (from the Bridge District murders quest to Adalon's involvement with them) culminating in one of the game's most epic and difficult battles - except the thing was never actually finished. Bits and pieces of dialogue/lore about the whole thing still remain in-game, and even the unused dialogue is still in the game somewhere. The original devs then, being the kind of people who hated seeing their efforts go to waste and who actually liked their players for a change, generously decided to leave the Twisted Rune fight in the game as a secret/puzzle.
What do you know, secrets, puzzles and shortcuts. You know, like a real PnP game. And considering the spirit on which that gesture was made, bashing on the SofM seems rather crude.
Finally, when the original devs set out to create BG:SoA I don't think they expected it to blow up and become the classic we now know it to be. Despite the original BG's modest success, these people were still only artists/gamers trying to make games for other gamers to enjoy. Just a few years before, the Western RPG genre was in a massive slump. No one knew for sure if BG2 was going to be a financial success.
The result is mixed, as demonstrated by the fact that many high level by-time-you're-nearing-the-end-of-the-game spells tend to be OP (ie, pull out all the stops - it's conceivable that the SofM was also supposed to be in this category) or the fact that SoA's other demilich is laughably weak compared to Kangaax (ie, lack of scaling - same for the Twisted Rune) combined with the fact that the devs DID leave out a few things just in case they did get enough funding to create an expansion.
Finally, BG2 is a lot more like a PnP game than you even realize. Feel free to check up on what original BG2 players had to go through to beat the game.
There's a reason meta-gaming is frowned upon in roleplay/PnP.
-My friend steven
he proceeded to roll two twenties. This story had nothing to do with my choice other than he jumped into a beholder. But the shield takes away the challenge of beholders
Every proven mathematical theroem is trivial
Applied to this discussion
Every succesful BG tactic is considered cheasy
"cheasy" is sometime used to differenciate between advanced and not so advanced players and has the potential to be implicitly insulting.
Using two weapons should not give you any additional attacks, because you still have only one body. It should give you an advantage by allowing you to attack from either side, but only if you are well trained. Having two big sticks in your hands should negate this advantage, because the weapons would interfere too much with each other.
The main advantage of dual wielding in BG2 are the immunities and other indirect bonuses from the off-hand weapon. This goes against the spirit of how magic items work in AD&D. Carrying a sword around isn't enough to gain its powers. You have to wield the sword as an extension of yourself. When dual wielding, only your primary weapon is really an extension of yourself. You can switch the primary weapon quickly, but you lose the powers from the other weapon by doing so. And Robe of Vecna is balanced without Improved Alacrity. The difference is that Robe of Vecna just gives you an initiative bonus, while Improved Alacrity breaks fundamental assumptions in the rule system.
Just out of curiosity does all the bits and pieces left make enough to remake or implement the actual quest?
As for the Staff of the Magi it still is rather cheesy, the developers should never have given it equipped invisibility or at least made it a charge.
True except for Kangaxx all the other demiliches are rather weak although I seem to recall running away once from the elemental lich ( I think or maybe it was Kangaxx) and he followed us into the streets slaughtering whoever was around while we ran for it and we never went back to that district ever again but that was in the original not sure it does that in EE.
Do scrolls of protection from undead and magic count as gear (they are one use items) if so, they are rather cheesy - kangaxx demi-lich should not be beaten by a scroll that costs a few 100 gold - and once you attack it should allow Kangaxx in his demi-lich form to target you but it doesn't.
With Hide in plain Sight (Dual Sh=>Mage) or unnerfed staff of the Magi, you can simply use short cast spells (Among them skull traps, sunfire, and various AoEs) and go invisible again with 0 possibility of counter-attack for your enemies.
With Improved Alacrity, you can spam those short cast spells with no cooldown at all.
With increased movement speed and robe of Vecna, you may simply do a perfect hit and run with those same short cast spells. I know you can hit and run with ranged weapons as well but your character needs to stand still for a second before he can shoot whatever ammo he uses, which at least offers a small window of action for your enemies. A mage with robe of Vecna and movement speed can litterally walk around, dishing skull traps and fireball with no interruption at all, with no chance for melee enemies to ever catch him while he freely damages them. And this will even work without movement speed. Maybe not as well, but it will still work. You can render enemy melee fighters useless without even casting protection spells or lowering your damage output. If that's not "against the D&D spirit" as you said concerning improved alacrity, I'm not sure what it is.
Improved alacrity alone, or with any item/spell (besides Robe of Vecna), will be good, but counterable. AoE spell? The enemy can run out of it before it's there. Targeted spell? It may go invisible. Or it may simply shoot an arrow or a short cast spell to interrupt you, if your protections are not properly set. I'm not saying the basic AI will do that. But it could, and will, with proper AI mods. Something potentially very strong BUT counterable is much more balanced than something with slightly less potential but no possible counterplay. Improved alacrity is the former, Robe of Vecna, the latter.
Oh and I'd also mention you need at least 3M XP to have improved alacrity, and it takes a level 9 spell slot, at least as a mage, while you can get Robe of Vecna after completing a couple of secondary quests.
So what does BG reward? Tactics? Kind of, but tactical games usually come down to things like guarding your flanks and making sure you don't overextend yourself. Those aren't big parts of BG either, in no small part because the AI doesn't take advantage (especially in vanilla, but even in SCS I've never had an enemy try to outflank me).
So again, what does BG reward? BG rewards knowing the answer. BG rewards your ability to go "we're fighting mind flayers, so I need to use Chaotic Commands, Animate Dead, and Mordenkainen's Sword, otherwise they'll just stun me and then make with the brain eating" or "okay, the enemy is invisible, has stoneskin up, and is protected from abjuration, so I need to cast True Sight, then Ruby Ray of Reversal, and then Breach, or I need to just keep hitting him with a weapon that has bonus elemental damage, but oh he's also protected from fire so it would need to be some other element."
BG isn't a game of combat, whether visceral or tactical. BG is a puzzle game. It is among the best puzzle games ever made, because the puzzles and their solutions arise emergently from the game rules, but it is a puzzle game nonetheless. And in that light, discussions of cheese seem a bit strange to me. What people call cheese is not inherently bad, it's just a well-known solution to a given type of puzzle. Veteran players don't get much enjoyment out of using these solutions, since they already know them, and solving a puzzle that you already knew how to solve isn't much fun, but that doesn't mean the solution is somehow wrong or bad. Any solution you already know is going to be boring to use. In other words, cheese isn't a property of an item, or a spell, or an ability. Cheese is a property of a player, using a solution that they know too well to find enjoyable anymore.
Many things people consider cheesy in BG2 are ultimately either about those house rules or abusing enemy AI. There are much less things that would be cheesy in an actual AD&D 2e game with a decent DM.