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Mod idea: Golem Building ability for arcane casters

245

Comments

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,939
    I'd vote for "Craft Golem".

    mf2112argent77JuliusBorisov
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    edited June 2016
    argent77 said:

    I was leaning towards "Construct Golem" or "Craft Golem" as well. I'll probably go with "Construct Golem". I would use "crafting" for manufacturing less complex items.

    "Conjure" and "assemble" don't fit either as they only describe parts of the whole golem creation process. Unlike the Golem Manual from WK which summons a golem from some place (or out of thin air) for a limited span of time the "Construct Golem" ability will allow you to create a servant for life (or until destroyed).

    Are you going to offer some way to repair the golems? As they get damaged will they become less effective for movement and attacks and damage?

    Post edited by mf2112 on
    CrevsDaak
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 2,569
    That's a good question. Unfortunately the spell system in BG1/BG2 doesn't strictly follow 2e rules, so you can easily "repair" your golems with healing spells (unlike in IWD). A repair ability would just be more work for me without any real benefit.

    It's also difficult to simulate performance degradation based on health with the game engine. That's why creatures with only 1 HP left are always as effective as fully healed. Maybe I can come up with something in this regard.

    mf2112CrevsDaak
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,347
    argent77 said:

    It's also difficult to simulate performance degradation based on health with the game engine. That's why creatures with only 1 HP left are always as effective as fully healed. Maybe I can come up with something in this regard.

    That could be a cool mod all its own. Not terrifically easy to do, but probably possible. (Basically, apply a permanent repeating opcode 326 effect to every .cre.).

    But something like that would certainly deserve its own thread. Carry on!

    CrevsDaak
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 2,569
    That's some great suggestions. Now that it's possible for golems to travel with the party I have to revise the whole balancing system anyway.

    Using a laboratory sounds reasonable. Constructing the physical shell of the golem should take a whole day or two. The final enchanting process would be similar to summoning an elemental. The caster would enter a mental battle with the conjured spirit for a round or two. There would be a small chance that the golem breaks free and turn on the caster for a couple of rounds before it is possible to bring it back under control.

    A wish spell is already needed to turn iron into adamantine for the more powerful golem types. I'll probably add a shady merchant somewhere too, who may turn your iron into adamantine for an outrageously high fee.

    The healing issue is probably more difficult to implement. I could make the golems immune to the games' vanilla healing spells, but I would miss healing spells added by mods. Alternatively I could make them immune to the healing opcode itself and only allow regeneration spells.

    mf2112lolienCrevsDaak
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,493
    Expanding on the laboratory locations idea a bit...

    For the low level golems, perhaps you could pay Thalantyr rent to use High Hedge as your golem building lab. Then once you get access to Baldur's Gate, you can also pay rent to Halbazzer Drin to use Sorcerous Sundries' upstairs area as your lab.

    In SoD, the problem is that suitable places for golem building labs become inaccessable after some point and you cannot return to them, such as Sorcerous Sundries and the Coldhearth Lich's dungeon. The Coalition Camp isn't exactly suitable for building a golem, but it's the last "home base" in SoD before the siege.

    In BG2, the most obvious golem lab is the Planar Sphere. Other places may include Deirex's Tower and Watcher's Keep level 2. In ToB there is the pocket plane, of course, and perhaps Odameron the lich's home in Sendai's enclave.

    mf2112
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,347
    edited June 2016
    Honestly I'm not sure any wizard below ~9th level has any business creating golems of any sort in the first place. That's an extraordinarily powerful ability for a novice who can't even create a temporary enchanted weapon... If it was me, I would make this a BG2 thing. Especially since the planar sphere already has some golem-building stuff in it.

    mf2112Abdel_Adrianlolien
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,215
    argent77 said:

    ...

    The healing issue is probably more difficult to implement. I could make the golems immune to the games' vanilla healing spells, but I would miss healing spells added by mods. Alternatively I could make them immune to the healing opcode itself and only allow regeneration spells.

    Well, if it makes any difference, I'll be making one of those mods, and i will totally make sure to include compatibility code for this

    mf2112
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 2,569
    edited June 2016

    Honestly I'm not sure any wizard below ~9th level has any business creating golems of any sort in the first place.

    You have a point. BG1 is probably too early for being able to construct golems on your own. I should delay it until SoD. You could find the the first golem manual in the starting dungeon and be able to create it either on the second floor of Sorcerous Sundries or later on in the Coldhearth Lich's dungeon. Maybe it could be possible in Dragonspear Castle as well.

    I don't see them as too overpowered though. The lesser golem variants are quite weak compared to the regular golems you encounter in the game. What gives them an edge over summons is the ability to follow you across maps, however.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 4,304
    Just thinking out loud here:
    I imagine BG1 would yield enough experience for arcane spellcasters to create small- to middle-sized homunculus constructs. It also makes more sense to start out small and gradually tackle full-fledged golems later on in the saga.

    Something like homunculus (mephit) > homunculus (zombie) > half-flesh golem > flesh golem > .ect

  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 2,569
    I don't want to add even more different creatures to the mod, but I could make greater distinctions between regular golems and their lesser counterparts.

    lolienCrevsDaak
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,347
    argent77 said:

    What gives them an edge over summons is the ability to follow you across maps, however.

    You can't put a price on loyalty!

    GrammarsaladlolienCrevsDaak
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 2,569
    I have decided to make golems immune to the healing opcode itself and allow only regeneration effects. For that reason the golem manuals will also teach you the "Repair Golem" ability in addition to "Construct Golem".

    The repair process doesn't require any additional components. However, it can only be executed when no enemies are around and will make both caster and golem becoming unresponsive for the whole regeneration process (i.e. a couple of rounds).

    (Btw, I have learned some shortcomings of the new effect opcodes during the process.
    1. Spells referenced by opcode 326 (Add Effects List) don't support targetting the caster in addition to the specified target. This is different from opcode 177 (Use EFF File) and took me some time to identify the issue and sort it out.
    2. Opcode 365 (Make unselectable) doesn't work correctly with timing mode 0. The creatures always toggled between selectable and unselectable states while the effect was active. I had to fall back to the "Pause Target" opcode instead.)

    mf2112GrammarsaladCrevsDaak
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 2,569
    Now I'm stuck and I don't know why. I'm triggering the golem construction process by a short dialog with an invisible helper creature. After making a few selections a cutscene is supposed to start with a fade in/advance time/fade out sequence. Afterwards the dialog should continue where it left for the final enchantments.

    Dialog snippet:
    IF ~~ Golem.Flesh.Regular SAY ~You start with the construction of the golem body...~ IF ~~ DO ~SetGlobal("GolemType", "LOCALS", 1) SetGlobal("GolemVariant", "LOCALS", 2) TakePartyItemNum("a7!body", 1) DestroyItem("a7!body") StartCutSceneMode() StartCutScene("a7!ct02")~ EXIT END
    Cutscene:
    IF True() THEN RESPONSE #100 CutSceneId("a7!smdlg") // script name of the helper creature ClearAllActions() FadeToColor([30.0],0) Wait(2) AdvanceTime(7200) FadeFromColor([30.0],0) Wait(2) StartDialogueNoSet(LastSummonerOf(Myself)) END
    For some reason I'm stuck in cutscene mode without the cutscene being processed at all (and because of a bug I can only close the game via task manager). Does anyone have an idea what went wrong?

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,215
    I know absolutely nothing about cutscenes, but is the cutscene script named exactly: a7!ct02? Is the script name of the 'helper' exactly: a7!smdlg? Is there anything weird with a7!smdlg?

    I wish i could be more help

    mf2112
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 2,569
    edited June 2016
    It's not a case of misspelled names.

    After a lot of testing I was able get it to work when I made the helper creature global before starting the dialog. But that's not a solution as the baldur.gam will be swamped with helper creature entries eventually (which is bad). There must be another way.

    Edit: I have finally found a way to make it work, although in a hackish way. I had to avoid using the script name of the summoned creature directly. It was also needed to manually teleport the creature back to the summoner or it would be placed into the top left corner of the map.
    IF True() THEN RESPONSE #100 CutSceneId(Myself) // don't use script name directly! ClearAllActions() FadeToColor([30.0],0) Wait(2) AdvanceTime(7200) JumpToObject(LastSummonerOf(Myself)) // creature is located at top-left corner of map for some reason FadeFromColor([30.0],0) Wait(2) StartDialogueNoSet(LastSummonerOf(Myself)) END
    That's surely a bug or quirk of the game engine.

    Post edited by argent77 on
    Grammarsaladmf2112CrevsDaak
  • GrimLefourbeGrimLefourbe Member Posts: 634
    This sounds awesome and seeing how cool Afaaq is, i'm just impatient.

    I always felt like the Planar Sphere was lackluster for a mage, so it'd be a great place to make golems maybe you could allow the player to drop the golems at the planar sphere and have them wander the sphere if they're not following the party. It would improve the great mage fantasy I think.

    This could be combined with a teleportation item to allow the user to teleport the golem back to the sphere.

    As an alternative for players without the sphere, there's also the mage who makes a golem in his house at imnesvale, his house could be used as an alternative with a few restrictions. (no more than X golems at once)

    The golem summoning book could become a way to summon one of your previously created golems too.

    Those are just some ideas. About balance, I honestly doubt it's possible to balance any kind of summon with invulnerability to a number of effects.

    argent77CrevsDaak
  • GalactygonGalactygon Member, Developer Posts: 360
    Another place where golems can be created IMO is the second level of the watcher's keep once the player unlocks the third level and defeats the chromatic demon. I actually prefer the idea of not having the golems automatically follow you especially in cases where your party is teleported but allowing the golem summoning book to teleport one/all of the golems or having some other special item do it for you.

    Monstrous Compendium Volume 1 has a detailed description on how the 4 basic golems are completed. For example, Flesh Golems can be created by wizards of at least level 14. The material components necessary to construct Flesh Golems are: 6 humanoid bodies and 40 000 gold pieces. The necessary spells are: wish, polymorph any object, geas, protection from normal missiles, and strength. Clay golems can only be animated by lawful good priests of 17th level or more.

    argent77lolienCrevsDaak
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 2,569

    I always felt like the Planar Sphere was lackluster for a mage, so it'd be a great place to make golems maybe you could allow the player to drop the golems at the planar sphere and have them wander the sphere if they're not following the party. It would improve the great mage fantasy I think.

    This could be combined with a teleportation item to allow the user to teleport the golem back to the sphere.

    That's a good idea and not terribly difficult to implement. I don't plan to add the teleportation option though. It would feel too cheesy to me.

    I actually prefer the idea of not having the golems automatically follow you especially in cases where your party is teleported...

    Teleporting is not an issue on a technical level. That's automatically taken care of by the game engine. The only instance where non-party companions may not be fully supported are cutscenes where party members walk from one point to another. I don't think its wrong from a roleplaying standpoint either. Golems are made to execute the commands of their master unconditionally, which also includes following the master.

    I looked around and found some extensive descriptions of 2e golems. The requirements for most golems are pretty hefty (but that's also the case for p&p enchantments and spells in general). I'll implement it in a more simplified way without requiring dozens of spells and components (as outlined in my first post). The level requirement will be updated however, so that it's more suitable for SoD and BG2 characters. That Clay Golem can only be created by LG priests is unusual, but I'll probably not implement that aspect or I would have to find locations for clerics as well.

    Btw, there are also Lightning Golems described in 2e sources. Maybe I could implement them as well.

    mf2112CrevsDaak
  • Abdel_AdrianAbdel_Adrian Member Posts: 427
    argent77 said:


    That Clay Golem can only be created by LG priests is unusual, but I'll probably not implement that aspect or I would have to find locations for clerics as well.

    That's one of those fun 2e references to folklore, in this case Joseph the Clay Golem created by a Jewish Rabbi.

    I imagine clerics could make clay, maybe even stone golems, possibly at a lower level than arcane casters, but at the cost of not being able to create other types of golems.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem

    CrevsDaak
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,939
    @argent77 there are also several types of golems in D&D/FR 3ed sourcebooks:

    Monster Manual 2
    • Stained glass golem
    • Brass golem
    • Dragonflesh golem
    Monsters of Faerun
    • Ruby golem
    • Emerald golem
    • Diamond golem
    Brass golems resembles minotaurs, so the minotaur avatar with different color palette should be perfect.
    Gemstone golems would be more tricky to do, though.

    CrevsDaak
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 2,569
    Yeah, the 2e Monstrous Compendium lists all kinds of golems and golem-like creatures. There are also maggot golems (sounds intriguing), amber golems, skeleton golem (which are apparently different from bone golems), mud golems, rock golems, silver golems, and even "drolems" (which are golems shaped like dragons).

    I want to limit it to a few selected types though. By now I have six conventional golem types in lesser, regular, greater and perfect variants each, and five exotic types. I don't want to add more than one or two exotic golems to the list.

    Btw, the Burning Man you're encountering in ToB is a golem as well. I always assumed it to be just another fire elemental type.

    mf2112CrevsDaak
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,493
    argent77 said:


    I want to limit it to a few selected types though. By now I have six conventional golem types in lesser, regular, greater and perfect variants each, and five exotic types. I don't want to add more than one or two exotic golems to the list.

    That is good. I was going to say that all these suggestions for other golem types would increase the scope of this mod too much. I like options too, but I'd also like this mod to actually get finished first, because I'm honestly excited for it.

    Also, a question: the larger golems' maneuverability is obviously limited in tight spaces like dungeons and interior areas. Will there be a way to get them past these obstacles and get them "unstuck" without having to use Ctrl+J?

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