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Mod idea: Golem Building ability for arcane casters

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  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    argent77CrevsDaak
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,124
    You've made some valid points.

    every wizard PC will have a perfect adamant one golem in every playthrough. It's just what people do.

    I (sort of) have accounted for that. I made certain that the biggest, strongest, most resistant and durable golem will likely only be available for the final fight against Melissan (at the very least, it's not available before Chapter 9). I'm still in my first full test run with the mod, so there will most likely be some rebalancing done yet.
    Same with the golem manuals. I made certain that you can only find a single instance of tomes for building exotic golems throughout SoD and BG2. For example, you won't find a second tome for building Maggot Golems if you found one in Siege of Dragonspear and imported that character into BG2. Since using the tome will spend its charge, only one party member will be able to build that specific exotic golem. (There will be one exception in the second half of ToB though.)
    Regarding the Cult of the Eyeless: I have to say, golems are cheesy by nature.
    The beholder lair is probably the only place where your golems can really shine. Everyone else of notable power will have ways to harm the golems in one way or another.
    Consider that imbuing them with magic resistance is only a part of their characteristics, so that part of it should be *easier* than the whole golem-building process. So every mage who has the ability to build a golem (with this mod, that means every mid-level mage) should also be able to get *permanent* 100% MR, just like their golem.
    Are you certain that high magic resistance is not just a trait of the spirit that animates the golem body? The 2e manuals mention that golems are immune to almost all spells and magical effects because of the spirit without going into details. Bioware must have reinterpreted it by making them highly resistant to magic in general. I'll think about toning down magic resistance, at least for the weaker types and variants. However, (flesh, clay and stone) golems are really only below-average fighters. They have one or two attacks per round at most and bad AC. Only their damage output is great because of their high strength. The lesser variants have also very low health and can probably be destroyed in two or three hits from an average fighter. Weaker golem types (flesh, clay and stone) are more of a hit or miss in many situations.

    Golems also cannot be healed by normal means. Except maybe by the 7th-level cleric spell Regeneration, but I can make them immune to it as well. You must use the "Repair Golem" ability on them (which you can do only once per rest when no enemy is around). You can't even use the Ctrl-R cheat to heal them quickly.
    What's more, I don't understand the rationale behind all of the elemental resistances. Iron gets *healed* by fire? How does that work? (Never mind that I think the whole concept of >100% resistances is cheesy and basically idiotic.)
    That's also described in the 2e manuals. Fire heals iron golems while electrical damage is supposed to slow them down. There are similar traits described for stone and clay golems. But I can probably remove these traits.
    2) If a 10th-level PC can build a golem, than any 10th-level mage can build one.
    But not every 10th-level mage has access to a well equipped golem factory. :p
    3) Okay three suggestions. In addition to the above, eliminate the 'Repair Golem' ability.
    That penalty would be too harsh. Especially weaker golem types are very fragile (provided enemies can touch the golem at all). They wouldn't last against more than one or two opponents of the average mob in later parts of the game. As mentioned above, you can't heal them, and they don't heal naturally via rest. You have to use the Repair Golem ability which is only available once per rest. It is also the only option to remove permanent penalties that are applied at random when the golem is down to low health.
    4) Elimnate the 'Teleport to Me' ability. You have to sneak through some tight tunnels to reach the enemy? You should have to leave you giant iron golem behind.
    I can't really comment on that yet. I have mainly implemented it so that the party can travel to the next map without being stuck because of the golem. I can say more when I have finished my current test run.

    GrammarsaladFlashburnCrevsDaak
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    i agree with most of what sd says above. I think that the ' teleport to me' should exist for convenience. It'd just be a pita if you got stuck on a map because your Golem can't fit though a doorway ( though he makes a good point otherwise).

    I would be okay if the 'repair golem' ability was expensive in some prohibitive way, even if that meant some sort of xp cost.

    Maybe some of these extra penalties could be optional so some players can just go to cheeseville if they want. Hey, i don't judge

    CrevsDaak
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2016
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Grammarsaladineth
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577

    ...
    Maybe limit the Repair Golem ability to repairing 20% or 25% of the golem's hit points. So if you are careless with your creation and keep throwing it into fights, you run the risk of it taking damage faster than you can repair it, and being destroyed.

    Oohh, i like that!

  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,124

    Btw I hope I didn't come across as super critical. As I mentioned, I love the idea. Just trying to spur discussion of balance issues and brainstorm a bit.

    Constructive criticism is always welcome. :)
    Maybe limit the Repair Golem ability to repairing 20% or 25% of the golem's hit points. So if you are careless with your creation and keep throwing it into fights, you run the risk of it taking damage faster than you can repair it, and being destroyed.
    That's a good idea, but difficult to implement. I'm forced to use the regeneration opcode for restoring the golem's health, but this opcode is quite limited in its current implementation. I can't restore percentages of health that way, and I don't want to implement separate restoration spells for each golem type and variant (which would result in 30 different spells). In its current implementation "Repair Golem" is overkill for weaker golem type (which are repaired in a matter of seconds) while it's probably just right for the more powerful ones. I can probably tone it down a bit though, but it's not really an unbalanced ability since you can heal your summons with regular healing spells as well.
    another idea, maybe make it so that you have to infuse a golem with a bit of your own life force to animate it.
    I don't think life force can be sacrified for simply repairing a piece of metal or clay (although, pretty much anything is possible in the realms). And the spirit that animates the construct is untouchable according to the 2e Monstrous Manual:

    The animating force of the golem is an elemental spirit from the elemental plane of Earth. Since the spirit is not a natural part of the body, it is not affected by most spells or even by most weapons. The process of creating the golem binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body, and enslaves it to the will of the golem's creator. The nature of this spirit is unknown, and has so far eluded the grasp of all researchers. What is known is that it is hostile to all Prime Material plane life forms, especially toward the spell caster that bound it to the golem.

    Too bad there is no opcode that applies spells based on the existence of items in the party inventory. It could so much improve this ability.

    FlashburnbrusCrevsDaak
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,318
    argent77 said:

    That's a good idea, but difficult to implement. I'm forced to use the regeneration opcode for restoring the golem's health, but this opcode is quite limited in its current implementation. I can't restore percentages of health that way, and I don't want to implement separate restoration spells for each golem type and variant (which would result in 30 different spells). In its current implementation "Repair Golem" is overkill for weaker golem type (which are repaired in a matter of seconds) while it's probably just right for the more powerful ones. I can probably tone it down a bit though, but it's not really an unbalanced ability since you can heal your summons with regular healing spells as well.

    Since they don't turn hostile:

    Opcode: 12 (Damage)
    Target: Preset(2)
    Parameter1 = 150
    Parameter2 = Set to % (2) and Stunning (2048)
    Savetype = Bypass Mirror Image(24), Ignore Difficulty(25)
    Special = Suppress Feedback(5)

    Increases the targets Current Hit Points by 50%(adjust to preference).
    The more damaged the Golem becomes, the less effective it repairs.

    Grammarsaladargent77CrevsDaak
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,124
    Great idea, and it seems to work. I'll probably apply that effect multiple times for better results. You can still hear the attack sound, but that can be interpreted as hammering the golem body into shape.

    brusCrevsDaak
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,838

    stuff

    What's the point of even having a golem if its so weak that it collapses anytime a moderately powerful enemy so much as sneezes on it? At that point it'd just be a glorified summon, and certainly not worth the effort of collecting the materials and building it.

    Sure, golems can be unbalancing, but at least I'll have fun sending in an extra-special present for those SCS mages who've got 3 or 4 layers of magical and melee protection. I'm sure they'll still find a way to kill it regardless, which will still make my party have to step in and take care of said mage.

    CrevsDaak
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,786
    Flashburn said:

    stuff

    What's the point of even having a golem if its so weak that it collapses anytime a moderately powerful enemy so much as sneezes on it? At that point it'd just be a glorified summon, and certainly not worth the effort of collecting the materials and building it.

    Sure, golems can be unbalancing, but at least I'll have fun sending in an extra-special present for those SCS mages who've got 3 or 4 layers of magical and melee protection. I'm sure they'll still find a way to kill it regardless, which will still make my party have to step in and take care of said mage.
    This. If I as a mage go to great lengths to build powerful guardian - a golem - I would not expect it to be a pushover for enemy mages. It should be powerful, maybe not that powerful to kill every mage by itself, but it should be able to weaken enemies at least moderately. It should be strong, but hard to assemble.

  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,124
    I've just fought the two liches who are guarding body parts for Kangaxx. Their spells had little effect on the golem. My clay golem patiently waited until the liches spent all their spells before my party moved in to finish them. Their fireshields as well as melee attacks did some damage to the golem, but it was manageable. The golem had no chance against Kagaxx in demilich form though. Imprisonment seems to bypass magic resistance.

    From what I've seen until now (I'm still in SoA Chapter 2) golems are especially effective against mages and supernatural creatures. Clay golems are also immune to bladed and pointed weapons which helps against the random bandit encounters. Their poison immunity helps against spiders and ettercaps, but they are pretty vulnerable to melee attacks. However, since it's nearly impossible to disable them with spells you can always take them out of the battle if needed.

    The 1% chance of going berserk during battle can be annoying if one of your party member happens to be in close range. Fortunately the effect only lasts a few rounds.

    I'm still too low level to build the more powerful golems. My best mage is close to level 14. (Lesser) Iron golems require level 15.

    CrevsDaak
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    CrevsDaak
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,124
    edited July 2016
    I don't think golems are overpowered. Yes, they are pretty much immune to magic attacks. But they behave rather poorly when confronted with melee fighters.

    I tested a fire elemental from the The 6th-level druid spell "Conjure Fire Elemental" against several golems. A single fire elemental destroyed three flesh golems or two clay golems in a row before it was destroyed. And a planetar single-handedly destroyed a couple of mithral and adamantite golems without breaking a sweat.

    Taking away magic resistance would probably turn the golems into useless cannon fodder.

    CrevsDaak
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    edited July 2016
    argent77 said:

    I don't think golems are overpowered. Yes, they are pretty much immune to magic attacks. But they behave rather poorly when confronted with melee fighters.

    I tested a fire elemental from the The 6th-level druid spell "Conjure Fire Elemental" against several golems. A single fire elemental destroyed three flesh golems or two clay golems in a row before it was destroyed. And a planetar single-handedly destroyed a couple of mithral and adamantite golems without breaking a sweat.

    Taking away magic resistance would probably turn the golems into useless cannon fodder.

    Is it possible to tweak ai so a mage detecting an enemy golem will summon something that can handle them ( if they have a spell available)?

    I know that is possibly going beyond the scope of the mod, but wouldn't most mages have an idea of how to counter one if encountered? A lich, certainly

    Edit: i would think that a lich would know not to use most spells against a golem directly. Rather they might summon some undead guardian(s) and maybe buff them (ie those guardians)...or some other strategy I'm not thinking of

    CrevsDaak
  • brusbrus Member Posts: 944
    Brainbolt:
    what about when you cast some powerful golem, the caster has 20% chance to be trapped inside Otiluke resilient sphere for 2 rounds?

    CrevsDaak
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,257
    Out of curiosity - is there a point to learning how to create clay and stone golems in SoD, by which point you're already past the areas where golem creation is possible? Does the knowledge transfer over to BG2?

  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,838
    So I've finally gotten to the Planar Sphere and helped Lavok, sent the Solamnic Knights back home, and the 3 apprentices have just started work on their first item.

    Nothing's indicated that the Sphere is suitable for golem construction yet, nor can I construct golems using the special ability. Is there something else that still needs to be done, or is this a bug?

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,124

    Out of curiosity - is there a point to learning how to create clay and stone golems in SoD, by which point you're already past the areas where golem creation is possible? Does the knowledge transfer over to BG2?

    Yes, the golem construction ability will be transferred to BG2. Also, golem manuals and some materials will be transferred. You can find them all somewhere in the opening dungeon of BG2.
    The golem manuals found in SoD should allow you to build golems even before entering the final part of the game. Flesh golems can already be build at level 8 (or level 6 with for specialist mages), and both clay and stone golems can be build at level 11 which should be doable even before entering Castle Dragonspear for the grand final. There is also one kind of exotic golem that you can build in SoD.
    brus said:

    Brainbolt:
    what about when you cast some powerful golem, the caster has 20% chance to be trapped inside Otiluke resilient sphere for 2 rounds?

    I have already implemented something similar. The golem construction process takes several hours to days and the final enchantment will leave the caster tired, unable to cast spells and with reduced combat abilities for a couple of rounds. Certain golem types will apply even more penalties. There is also a small chance that the golem will run amok for a couple of rounds before you can get it under control. During that time it will primarily target the caster.
    Flashburn said:

    So I've finally gotten to the Planar Sphere and helped Lavok, sent the Solamnic Knights back home, and the 3 apprentices have just started work on their first item.

    Nothing's indicated that the Sphere is suitable for golem construction yet, nor can I construct golems using the special ability. Is there something else that still needs to be done, or is this a bug?

    Yes, there is a typo in the script portion for that area. You should be able to trigger the script by entering the following into the game console:
    C:SetGlobal("SPRITE_IS_DEADLAVOK","GLOBAL",1)

    I think the difference is, the usefulness of other summons is limited by being temporary; they disappear after a while.

    And the usefulness of golems is severely limited by the requirement to build them in dedicated locations as well as by the need of certain materials. Some even leech on your health.
    (Also, not to be nitpicky, but I have to point out that the two summons you compared them to are renowned for being to most OP summons for their level in the whole game.)
    I know, but golems are supposed to be exceptionally powerful as well. I would expect an adamantite golem to thrash a whole army. Their building requirements are so high for a reason.

    brusCrevsDaak
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,257
    edited July 2016
    Yeah but by the time I got the clay/stone golem books the lich laboratory is no longer accessible... Unless there's a third area where golems can be created but it isn't documented in the readme. Also I'm not sure if there's supposed to be no apparent limit to the number of golems controllable at once but I think it's a bad idea regardless since it messes with party formations and is a bit ridiculous.

    Edit: Nvm I saw it can be made at Dragonspear castle... still it confused me since the readme was missing that portion.

  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,124
    Dragonspear Castle is not available as a building location. I considered it for a while, but the place is probably unsuited for that kind of task, and you're probably in a hurry to proceed with the main quest. So I skipped the idea.

    I might add the castle to the list again if you can come up with a good RP justification for it.

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,257
    I actually don't think the castle's a good idea either, but currently there isn't any place to make new golems once you've passed the first two chapters. The best place I can think of is that ruin guarded by the ghost dragon since there were mages using it as a base of operations of sorts.

  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,124
    I forgot you can't access anything beyond the bridge area anymore after reaching the coalition camp. I agree, Kanaglym looks like a good alternate place for building golems.

    Flashburn
  • brusbrus Member Posts: 944
    argent77 said:


    I have already implemented something similar. The golem construction process takes several hours to days and the final enchantment will leave the caster tired, unable to cast spells and with reduced combat abilities for a couple of rounds. Certain golem types will apply even more penalties. There is also a small chance that the golem will run amok for a couple of rounds before you can get it under control. During that time it will primarily target the caster.

    Isn't this a little to punishable for the player ? Could the penalties be customized?

  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,124
    edited July 2016
    I don't think this is too harsh. In true D&D you'd need weeks or months and tons of ingredients and spells to construct your golems. I have shortened it to a couple of hours or days and a few symbolic ingredients.
    The short period of fatigue afterwards should also be no problem since you'd probably want to rest anyway (don't forget that you're doing the whole work in a designated area for building golems). The slim chance of the golem running amok is defined in the D&D manual as well.

    brus
  • inethineth Member Posts: 623


    Flashburn said:

    at least I'll have fun sending in an extra-special present for those SCS mages who've got 3 or 4 layers of magical and melee protection. I'm sure they'll still find a way to kill it

    Thing is, they won't. That's the main problem, this is being developed and adds stuff to the game after any/all AI scripts have already been made
    I don't know, SCS mages just might be smart enough to detect the magic resistance and try MR-bypassing spells or summons instead.

    CrevsDaak
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,124
    I can't say much about SCS, but the AI of vanilla mages is too limited to effectively deal with golems. Liches were also too stupid to use effective measures against them in my tests. The were stubbornly casting all of their predefined spells and engaged the golem in melee after spending their last Magic Missile.

    Maybe I can add a tweak component that adds a couple of script actions specifically for battling golems. I'll look into it further when the main component has been finished.

    GrammarsaladCrevsDaak
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,838
    Updated to v0.2 and rebuilt my golem.

    Are they supposed to be vulnerable to disease and poison damage? My Perfect Flesh Golem took a hit from an Otyugh and was infected with its disease.

  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,124
    Golems are supposed to be immune to poison (not certain whether effect only, or damage as well). I couldn't find anything about disease in the d&d manuals, but I suppose that all but flesh golems should be immune to disease as well. I'm currently using the default immunities for golems provided by the game. I have only expanded them slightly by making them immune to stat and level drain.

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