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Why do modern game devs hate the classic wizard look so much?

2

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  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,352
    On a very related note, has anyone else realized the resemblance between pointed wizard hats and executioner hoods?



    Coincidence? I think not!

    mf2112ButtercheesebrusCrevsDaak
  • Mr2150Mr2150 Member Posts: 1,170
    edited June 2016
    It's worth noting that Goya's hats are double pointed and are considered a mockery of a mitre but more devil horn-like...

    (Also - I believe the witches themselves are male).

    Oh, and I just did some research, the hat is believed to come from the Spanish Inquisition and used to mark heretics.

    bruskillerrabbitCrevsDaak
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,768
    @Kamigoroshi I guess killing someone can be a "magical" experience for the one doing the deed ...?

    CrevsDaak
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    Ever seen the costumes of the Witches of Subeshi?

    http://penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/PDFs/52-3/mair.pdf

    or the golden hats of the bronze age?

    http://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-other-artifacts/mystery-four-golden-hats-bronze-age-002630

    Perhaps there was something to the pointy hat . . .

    (although I really don't want to see it in a video game)

    brus
  • brusbrus Member Posts: 944

    On a very related note, has anyone else realized the resemblance between pointed wizard hats and executioner hoods?


    Coincidence? I think not!
    This would be nice game asset as a mimic in the RPG game similar as in Dark souls.

    ButtercheeseCrevsDaak
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    Because it's unrealistic, impractical, cliche and at this point, a bit comical.

    If you were a wizard, why would you need to wear long robes that hinder your movement?
    Mage's robes don't come in other shapes or cuts?

    Also why is that wizard hat needed? It's so easy to have it caught somewhere and you will constantly hit the to of the door frames with it, while it serves no purpose.

    Again, if a wizard hat can be enchanted with magical powers, why can't a hood do the same? Or a cowl?
    Especially when it comes to DnD, there's no reason to look like every other wizard or mage.

    Gandalf looks the way he does, because he is influenced by depictions of Odin, which is among others, the god of magic.
    There's no reason for every wizard to look like Odin, in short.

    image

    ButtercheeseabacusFardragonCrevsDaak
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,990
    To be honest I prefer the light armor with a hood look. It just feels a bit more down to earth to me.

    jtthCrevsDaak
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,768
    elminster said:

    To be honest I prefer the light armor with a hood look. It just feels a bit more down to earth to me.

    Please forgive me for not believing you, Mr. blue pointy hat :tongue:
    Archaos said:

    Because it's unrealistic, impractical, cliche and at this point, a bit comical.

    Unrealistic - I have worn a classical wizard outfit for years back in my LARPing days. I made it myself from scratch. I can assure you that this outfit was very real.
    Impractical - From personal experience, I can promise you then it's in no way less practical then wearing a long skirt and a cowboy hat.
    Cliche - Welcome to D&D and the entirety of the medieval fantasy genre.
    Comical - I find rogues wearing nothing but black far more comical. Also drow striper priestess outfits. Let's not forget boob plate. Rediculously oversized weapons. Spiky armor. You see where I am going with this?

    There is a lot of dumb shit in this genre. Drawing the line at pointy hats is quite frankly awfully selective and downright hypocritical.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited July 2016

    I literally showed you an example of him wearing a pointy hat from the 15th century above.

    That was normal dress for the period. I suspect your other painting from the Berlin museum shows the four evangelists (which would make them clerics) - you wouldn't go round painting wizards at that time, unless it was to show them burning in hell.

    Post edited by Fardragon on
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,825
    Some things are more cliché then others.

    As for other comical things, there are a lot of people tired of those as well (me included). You can't make a topic about why one specific thing is disliked and then go "yeah but what about these other things that's also ridiculous, you hypocrites" when people limit the discussion to just that one thing you made the topic about to begin with. You have not heard anyone's opinion on any of these other things. Arguing as if they find those tropes to be fresh and/or fine is completely assumptious.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited July 2016
    Archaos said:

    Because it's unrealistic, impractical, cliche and at this point, a bit comical.

    If you were a wizard, why would you need to wear long robes that hinder your movement?
    Mage's robes don't come in other shapes or cuts?

    Also why is that wizard hat needed? It's so easy to have it caught somewhere and you will constantly hit the to of the door frames with it, while it serves no purpose.

    Again, if a wizard hat can be enchanted with magical powers, why can't a hood do the same? Or a cowl?
    Especially when it comes to DnD, there's no reason to look like every other wizard or mage.

    Gandalf looks the way he does, because he is influenced by depictions of Odin, which is among others, the god of magic.
    There's no reason for every wizard to look like Odin, in short.

    image

    It would be nice to have a date for that woodcut, but it does look like it was a direct influence on Gandalf. He has the broad-brimmed "wanderers" hat, ideal for keeping off the rain, along with the spear which clearly evolved into the now-iconic staff.

    It is interesting that Disney's Merlin had no brim on his hat, making it far less practical. In fact it resembles a night cap. I believe this is deliberate, intending to suggest that Merlin is dopey / a dreamer / forgot to get dressed.

    I also find it interesting that Disney took what was simply the first book in a series and turned it into a stand-alone allegory about education: "what makes a good teacher?"

    Also on Disney, it may be worth noting that the Dwarfs in Snow White (1938) are depicted wearing pointy hats, as do Tolkien's Dwarves in The Hobbit. Gnomes (including smurfs) have long been depicted wearing pointy hats.

    Buttercheese
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    Most probably because they are ridiculous.

    God
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,473
    Maybe they're the medieval (or whatever) equivalent of flared trousers that everyone of my generation wore back in the 70's?
    I'm now imagining future historians coming up with theories such as "They must have been a primitive attempt at a levitation device."
    In fact the more I think of it, historians will have a lot of trouble making sense of much of the Seventies.

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    @dunbar: I think a lot of seventies strangeness can be explained by a single word:
    Cocaine.

    I was trying to think of a one-word explanation for the aesthetic strangeness of the fantasy genre, and then I remembered that D&D started in the seventies. Hmmmm.

    Mr2150dunbar
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,473
    edited July 2016
    @joluv: Actually it was LSD back then (as I recall....sort of).

    Edit: I do remember being attacked by a bus shelter once - it uprooted itself from the pavement, climbed up the wall of my house and tried to get in through the bedroom window.

    Mr2150joluvButtercheese
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,768
    I would like to ad that garden gnomes are actually called garden dwarves in German ... which is where the fairy tale about Snow White comes from.

    FardragonVallmyrjoluv
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,768
    Also, on the topic of clerics and wise men:
    The idea of the wizard is not necessarily that of someone being able to do literal magic. That is the modern depiction.

    It's also about that of the scientist who is able to perform and create things no one else understands. To do things that look like magic to others. If "magic" was real, we would just call it science. It's all about perception and rarity in this.

    So of course the image of the wise man, the scientist, the schoolar. And yes, to some degree that includes the cleric (you know, not every religion hates science as much as Christianity did (and in some countries still does). Just look at the wizard archetype of the Alchemist.

    And on the topic of "it just was the fashion back then":
    Still, who wore these kind of eyecatchers? Certainly not a poor man. And what was one of the key differences between people with money and people without back in the day?
    The rich ones could afford education.

    Of course it's doubtful that this kind of fashion was restricted to scholars or even alchemists.
    But I doubt even more that there was no influence on the modern wizard archetype.

    Here is my thesis:
    It's a known fact that back in the middle ages pretty much everyone wore a hat most of the time (because of lice and whatnot). And rich people, such as scholars, simply where able to afford the most striking designs. Not to forget that people did wear impractical clothes back then if they didn't have to do any physical work (people still do it, btw). That paired with the peacock effect and the fact that medieval fashion could be unbelievably rediculous at times, left a mark on the collective subconcious idea of what a scholar looks like.

    Long beard, flashy hat, long robes (which where a real thing back then for rich people, believe it or not).
    And what is more flashy than a huge hat?

    The wizard is all about standing out of the mass.
    To quote Granny Weatherwax: It's all about headology.

    I am not saying that all wizards should wear a pointy hat.
    Like, for a red wizard of Thay it makes no sense to wear a hat at all, because they got scalp tattoos.
    But there are certain schools, towns, countries and cultures where they would.

    And for settings where they don't - even though they keep the vast majority (if not all other) clichees alive - I do indeed have to call hypocricy.

    You know what I think the real reason is pointy hats have gone away?
    They are not "cool" enough. Not edgy enough.
    The writers just take themselves to flippin' serious.
    They have no sense of humor.

    And that's why we still have rogues wearing nothing but black and female warriors wearing boobplate - which is far more impractical than any pointy hat could ever be - but no wizards with pointy hats anymore.

    Haha, look at that wall of text, who's even gonna read that :'D

    Troodon80dunbarbrus
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited July 2016
    I agree that it makes sense for some wizards (in fantasy worlds where magic is generally accepted) to advertise their calling by wearing the hat. If they are selling spells or magical services, if they want to intimidate bandits into not attacking (good luck with that). However, for an adventuring wizard, it is like wearing a "kill me first" sign. The last thing they want to do is advertise their calling.

    Buttercheese
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,768
    edited July 2016
    Yes, I can agree with that.
    Of course most adventurers would resort to something more practical.
    But most wizards aren't adventurers. They are scholars, craftsmen, merchants and even politicians.

    Also, some wizards are too vein to wear more practical clothes even on the road, but we all know what usually happens to those guys >.>

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I would say that most D&D related illustrations of wizards depict adventurers.

    Those other guys may be running round in pointy hats (especially if the world features institutions like Hogwarts or Unseen University) but they are too boring for anyone to bother illustrating them.

    God
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,768
    Fardragon said:

    but they are too boring for anyone to bother illustrating them.

    brusTroodon80joluvCrevsDaak
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,768
    This debate has officially become too stupid for even me to continue. Your last statement literally gave me a headache. I will go back to drawing my boring art and looking at other people's boring art. Bye.

  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110
    Fardragon said:

    they are too boring for anyone to bother illustrating them.

    Panda wizard is disappointed.

    brusButtercheeseCrevsDaak
  • GodGod Member Posts: 1,150


    or the golden hats of the bronze age?

    http://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-other-artifacts/mystery-four-golden-hats-bronze-age-002630

    Perhaps there was something to the pointy hat . . .

    (although I really don't want to see it in a video game)

    Oh. Archaeologists sometimes get really carried away. How could one think of those as hats? They have nothing to do with head coverings, actually. You don't want to know what they're for. Really, you don't.
    You don't know. Pray that you never will.
    Don't open that spoiler!
    I warned you...
    Back in the bronze age, these metallic devices may or may not have been used in sexual intercourse... a lot. The Goddess has really weird fantasies sometimes.

    FinneousPJ
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,768
    @God And here I thought this topic was ruined :smirk:

  • brusbrus Member Posts: 944
    edited July 2016
    That could somewhat have repercussions for Sorting hat and Harry Potter being rated PG 13.

    But, I wouldn't put them in that context at all. I think of pointy hats being awesome and cool in any fantasy setting.
    Magicians used bigger hats to hide their tricks inside. Because magic was afoot.

    Post edited by brus on
    mf2112
  • ShadowHunterShadowHunter Member Posts: 143
    I like the look of the cliché wizard but for me this look screams " I'm old, experienced and I'm powerful but I'd rather use my charisma to guide people than to cast spells and get involved in various problems in the world" ( maybe because the first character I came across with this look was Elminster and his behaviour kind of conditioned me to think so about this specific look)

    But I like the more ... aristocratic look more on wizards, it kind of emits a high-class arrogance ( Sand, Aloth, Edwin ) so I understand why games would abandon the "cliché" look and look for other more modern looks for wizards.

  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,769

    On a very related note, has anyone else realized the resemblance between pointed wizard hats and executioner hoods?



    Coincidence? I think not!

    Now I want a wizard with an executioner hood familiar.

    brusmf2112CrevsDaak
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    If you want a straight answer to the original question, I believe there is a current fashion in western RPGs for more practical, functional clothing. Not only for wizards, but for all, especially females. Chain-mail bikinis and boob plates are no longer taken seriously in the west.

    Why? I put it down to the Game of Thrones effect. Leather and fur, laces and straps, and subdued colours are also "in".

    CrevsDaak
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