Why do modern game devs hate the classic wizard look so much?

Buttercheese

- Disclaimer: This is about the gaming industry in general, not Beamdog. -

Outside of of the comedy/ parody genre, the classic wizard look has become a true rarity ...
Pointy hats, long, flowing robes, the pointy shoes.
You know, Gandalf style.

Starting with the first Dragon Age (it probably did start earlier, but this is the game where it became imo blatantly obvious), the classic wizard look began to go extinct.
Even Elminster was robbed of his pointy hat! LOOK!

2nd Edition                                                                             3rd Edition


What's so bad about this look?

Is it too clichee?

Well, news flash, the entire medieval fantasy genre is just clichees wrapped in stereotypes on a solid foundation of tropes that are old as dirt. And all your other visual archetypes are still there: Rogues and rangers still wear hoods, paladins still wear way too bulky armor, women are still dressed like strippers (the latter one has slowly been getting better, luckily).

So I beseech you:
BRING BACK THE POINTY HATS!

Just see how great these guys look!


Also, thanks to Beamdog for adding Rincewind's hat in SoD >.>

JuliusBorisov

Hoods are good, though.
This is a totally unbiased comment.

batoor

I don't know.. I like the beard, but the pointy hat isn't much of a requirement for me.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Halaster_Blackcloak

This guy as an alternative for example.. Rugged scruffy and totally insane, but still an incredible arcane caster. The absence of a pointy hat doesn't disqualify him from the classic representation for me.

Kamigoroshi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9_0TkdxT5I

Can't have a thread with wizard hats without Wilbur the Mage after all.

SethDavis

I blame the DIsney version of The Sword in the Stone. Sure, it was fun and exciting when it came out, but you go back now and it just drags on and is completely plotless. It ruined the idea of wizards for me.

Buttercheese

I just realized.

What if Edwin stole Elminster's hat.

Maybe he keeps it hidden in a chest back home and only takes it out and puts it on when he thinks no one is looking.

O_Bruce

Buttercheese said:

Just see how great these guys look!

Question. What's interesting about those designs? Classic wizard look is stereotypical and not very creative.

Nimran

He always did want a pointy hat so he can kick Elminster's arse.

brus

Dark souls and Bloodborne outfits:

scriver

They dislike it because it is old, dull, and there's no reason for why wizards of all people would wear it.

Buttercheese

It's a uniform. A badge of honor!
When you wear the traditional wizard garb, people around you treat you like you could polymorph them into a frog in the blink of an eye. It's not about looking interesting or original. It's about other people being able to tell your profession. (Also, please show me a game that did a "uniform" redisgn that actually worked, because I haven't found one yet.)

Look at these guys:


You see them and know exactly what their jobs are, right?

The only other archetypes I know are the skull cap look (which is usually used for evil wizards) and the hooded look (which can be mistaken for other professions, for example cultists).
But these still work because they at least keep the robes.

dunbar

I think there's something in English folklore/superstition about why Witches specifically wear pointed hats (and no, it's not to make them more streamlined when they're riding their broomsticks). It might be a regional thing though, like horseshoes - in some parts of the country if you hang them with the open end down "all the luck falls out" but where I come from if you hang them with the open end up they "make a Witch's swing".

edit: I found this: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwj5sK_1lNDNAhWKiRoKHZCmCvYQFgg2MAM&url=http://www.controverscial.com/The%20Witches%20Hat.htm&usg=AFQjCNE5a1oiIaag9361I4RoLzcIn85WPg&bvm=bv.125801520,d.d2s

batoor

What about the classic witch?

Well personally I don't like the flying brooms...

Edit: Right I was 2 mins late..:P

Buttercheese

I do love me some pointy hat witches, however, the idea of the witch itself is more that of a scary crone in the forest, just look at all those fairy tales. Most of the time they are never even specifically refered to as witches and yet the vast majority of people will still call them such. (The old woman from Hänsel and Gretel, the evil stepmother from Snow White, etc.) And non of them wear pointy hats.
And then there is of course the famous Baba Yaga, also without hat.

But if you look at THE wizard archetype - Merlin from the Arthus legend - almost all of the time he will be portrayed with a pointy hat. And he is what most of the "medieval fantasy wizards" are based on.

Also, unrelated to the witch thing, I do remember reading some time back that the design might have been influenced by the so called "Jewish Hat". Since there is quite a bit of folklore sorrounding jewish wizards (just look at the Golem for example), I don't think it's too far-fetched. But I am hardly an expert on that topic, so take this with a big grain of salt >.>

brus

Witches in FR are very friendly. There were also male witches. For example, witches of Rashemen are wise old woman (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Witches_of_Rashemen).
But, they were not wearing any pointy hats, only masks.

Buttercheese

The Wychlaran don't have to be old, they can be of any age.
Though of course, it's most likely that high-ranking witches would also be the oldest ones.

Also, what I find interesting, is that class wise they are not restricted to sorcerers or wizards. They can also be clerics or some such. I think the only restriction is being a spellcaster (so I assume shamans and favoured souls also qualify. I doubt warlocks do though.)

SethDavis

brus said:

That is a really cool picture, but her hand had me terribly confused.

Vallmyr

Rincewind's hat is in SoD? I have not played SoD yet. Now I REALLY need to @_@

Buttercheese

It's really well hidden though. Here's how to get it:

As part of Saviak's Vision Quest (available in the prolouge on the ground floor of the Elfsong Tavern), you get the goggles that let you pull extraplanetars into your plane. In the coalition camp, right behind Mizhena there is a djinn you can pull over, his name is Nazramu. He sells the hat.



The design appears to be based on the Josh Kidby version, which is also featured in the first Discworld game (as oppossed to the probably more well known Paul Kidby version).

Buttercheese

Speaking of which ... anybody here remember the glorious Simon the Sorcerer?
I am still salty that they switched out his purple robes for red ones after the first game.

Fardragon

Buttercheese said:

But if you look at THE wizard archetype - Merlin from the Arthus legend - almost all of the time he will be portrayed with a pointy hat. And he is what most of the "medieval fantasy wizards" are based on.

Do we have much evidence for pointy-hatted wizards prior to the publication of The Hobbit in 1937?

Disney's Sword in the Stone is 1963. The novel was published in 1938, one year after the Hobbit. But since I haven't read it, I don't know if Merlin is described as wearing a pointy hat.

Merlin in Excalibur (1981) does not have a pointy hat:

brus

SethDavis said:

That is a really cool picture, but her hand had me terribly confused.

That's witch's gesture for.
It's non-stereotypical for the witches.

Buttercheese

Here is a picture of Merlin from the Nuremberg Chronicle (1493):


And here is one by Howard Pyle (1903). Can't tell if the hat is pointy or not, but it's at least a hat.


Here is a hooded version by Robert de Boron (13th century)


As for the novel Sword in the Stone, I wouldn't know. There are dozens of versions of Merlin's stories.
Usually he is just discribed as a wise man or some sort of celtic druid, at least from the historical versions I know.

Also, please keep in mind that Disney always took very strong liberties (to put it mildly) when it comes to history, mythology and folklore.
(Did you know the little mermaid dies in the end? And that Snow White made her step mother dance herself to death in glowing hot metal shoes? And that Cinderella's stepsisters cut off their toes and heels to fit the shoe? Just to name a few.)

Fardragon

The "Celtic druid" is a Victorian invention, so that doesn't go back very far.

Buttercheese

Wat? Druids have been around in Gaul since at least 200 BCE.
How did you get that idea???

Fardragon

Buttercheese said:

Wat? Druids have been around in Gaul since at least 200 BCE.
How did you get that idea???

They have, but virtually nothing is known about them, apart from it appears the Romans weren't lying when they said they where big on human sacrifice.

Everything we "know" about druids - white robes, mistletoe, sickles, nature affinity, etc was invented by the Victorians.

Buttercheese

Okay, I get that. But the victorian era was still before Disney and and The Hobbit happened.

Fardragon

Buttercheese said:

Okay, I get that. But the victorian era was still before Disney and and The Hobbit happened.

It's also the time of the Pre-Raphaelites, who where big on painting Arthurian themes, but I can't find any Pre-Raphaelite depictions of Merlin with a pointy hat.

I maintain my thesis that the pointy-hatted wizard was largely invented by Tolkien and propagated by Disney.

Pointy-hatted witches, as we have already established, is much older.

Buttercheese

I literally showed you an example of him wearing a pointy hat from the 15th century above.

Buttercheese

I sadly can't date these four paintings pricesely, but given the the style and the golden paint I'd say about 14/15th century? Can't find any information about them except for that they can be found in the Letter Museum Berlin.

Mr2150

Goya painted witches with pointy hats in 1798: