Adding a challenge without metagaming

redline

There's a lot to love about the SCS mod: improved enemy spellcasters, enemies that work together, bounty hunters that actually hunt you instead of standing around in the wilderness, etc.

That said, I hardly ever use it. Unfortunately, Bioware covered up a lot of the original game's AI flaws by simply over-leveling enemies: Silke is a great example, being a level 10 bard that you're generally expected to encounter at level 1, but who is really only a threat if you wait for her to fire off a lightning bolt. Give her decent AI and intelligent spell use, and she'll wipe the floor with most players who take her on during that first visit to Beregost. And while I'm sure a large number of players have no problem tackling encounters like that, based on what I've seen on the forums, many more simply avoid her altogether, leaving that particular fight for a later level.

This idea - that simply being well-equipped and smart isn't enough, and that some degree of metagaming is required to survive a minimal-reload run - really rubs me the wrong way, and as a result I miss out on the really brilliant parts of SCS. Does anyone else have this gripe, and if so, are there mods out there that try to rebalance some of those troublesome early encounters, either alongside or as a substitute for SCS?

OlvynChuru

I thought the Silke fight was cool. It's rare in games for there to be a battle against a much higher-level opponent which isn't supposed to be a forced-loss battle.

FinneousPJ

You might be expected to see her at level 1 but not necessarily fight her.

redline

FinneousPJ said:

You might be expected to see her at level 1 but not necessarily fight her.

That's exactly my point, though. How should a player be expected to know that? "I shouldn't talk to this obvious quest-giving NPC, because it will set off a series of events that will lead to either reputation loss or my grisly death". If Silke were wandering the wilderness, that'd be one thing; the game's structure generally pushes you in a direction that ramps up the difficult in a reasonable way, and diverting from that obvious path will have consequences in many open-map games.

Silke is in the very first town, though, so only a player who knows what to expect will willingly avoid her (why does she need bodyguards, anyway? She could slaughter the whole town herself). Similar (but less extreme) situation with the post Nashkel cyricists, or Nimbul; I don't feel like I'm being tactically challenged by high-level opponents getting dumped on me at unexpected times. Instead, I feel like it's only a challenge for my memory: if I don't remember exactly where to prebuff/take the long way around, I'm going to get walloped, and while that's certainly more difficult than the core game, it's missing a strategic element that I'm craving from an AI-based difficulty mod.

I really enjoyed SoD's encounter design, and I'm guessing that it's because the whole thing was built from the ground up with decent AI in mind, and so there weren't as many bizarre difficulty spikes like this. A setting that doesn't just beef up the original game's AI, but which also rebalances the challenges to follow a more reasonable difficulty curve, would be awesome for scrubs like me.

DJKajuru

I think that both Silke, Nimbul or the mercenaries who hunt you are part of the success of the original BG - they're tough and relatively optional (and yes, they'll wipe the floor with your head in a fair fight), but it also lets you learn a tactic or two . The amazons , for instance, are armed with poisonous darts, fire arrows and divine magic , enough to strike a low level party in a couple of rounds, so thta's when you've got to learn how to use area spells properly, or how to run and separate your enemies... It might metagaming today, but you had to learn it first, and in the end you felt that the magical stuff and XP are well worth the effort.

dunbar

For me that Silke encounter has "Trap!" written all over it right from the start. It's pretty much a given in the D&D world that if someone offers you good money for a seemingly simple task then you'd better start watching your back or walking away.
Which is why I always save before initiating conversation with a 'named' character that I haven't spoken to before so that I don't get sucked into traps like this.
And if any more proof were required that this was a cunningly designed trap set by a devious DM, look at how convenient the nearby Inn is where you can rest to recover after your fight with Silke - only to be attacked by a bounty hunter as soon as you enter.
All in all I think it's a good, but steep, learning curve.

TheArtisan

I use SCS, but I restrict myself further by adding a bit of role playing into it - I try to avoid resting in supposed 'dangerous' locations like dungeons unless I'm on the brink of death, and rely on potions and spells to heal between fights. It may not sound like much but it can be brutal - you're often not fully healthy and when you know there's a tougher fight ahead you'll want to conserve your important spells which makes every fight before it harder. I've actually gotten better as a result - in my last BG1 Blade run I managed to go through Cloakwood Mines without resting and defeated Davaeorn on my first attempt, which I've never managed before.

Also, I turn off rest until fully healed and never rest multiple times in one session unless I'm using an inn - I use temples to heal and pick up junk loot to scrape together more gold for healing. It feels more sensible and is a lot more fun.

I know it's not much to do with what's been said above but if you want a challenge that's not too restrictive these are some ideas worth trying out.

redline

Artemius_I said:

I use SCS, but I restrict myself further by adding a bit of role playing into it - I try to avoid resting in supposed 'dangerous' locations like dungeons unless I'm on the brink of death, and rely on potions and spells to heal between fights. It may not sound like much but it can be brutal - you're often not fully healthy and when you know there's a tougher fight ahead you'll want to conserve your important spells which makes every fight before it harder. I've actually gotten better as a result - in my last BG1 Blade run I managed to go through Cloakwood Mines without resting and defeated Davaeorn on my first attempt, which I've never managed before.

Also, I turn off rest until fully healed and never rest multiple times in one session unless I'm using an inn - I use temples to heal and pick up junk loot to scrape together more gold for healing. It feels more sensible and is a lot more fun.

I know it's not much to do with what's been said above but if you want a challenge that's not too restrictive these are some ideas worth trying out.

I love this play style, and try to do the same: lots of temple usage, no rest spamming, no short-duration prebuffs, and resolving conversations and quests in a way that makes sense, rather than just going for what's most advantageous. It's an approach that has really encouraged the use of stealth and scouting in a way that simply isn't necessary in the base game, but that doesn't help when dealing with non-hostile NPCs.

I guess that's part of why SCS was especially brutal for me: I prefer to avoid casting Power Word: Reload at all costs, and so situations where my only solution is just "I'll just avoid this NPC/area for... some reason" really breaks that roleplaying-inspired style.

jtth

redline said:

Artemius_I said:

I use SCS, but I restrict myself further by adding a bit of role playing into it - I try to avoid resting in supposed 'dangerous' locations like dungeons unless I'm on the brink of death, and rely on potions and spells to heal between fights. It may not sound like much but it can be brutal - you're often not fully healthy and when you know there's a tougher fight ahead you'll want to conserve your important spells which makes every fight before it harder. I've actually gotten better as a result - in my last BG1 Blade run I managed to go through Cloakwood Mines without resting and defeated Davaeorn on my first attempt, which I've never managed before.

Also, I turn off rest until fully healed and never rest multiple times in one session unless I'm using an inn - I use temples to heal and pick up junk loot to scrape together more gold for healing. It feels more sensible and is a lot more fun.

I know it's not much to do with what's been said above but if you want a challenge that's not too restrictive these are some ideas worth trying out.

I love this play style, and try to do the same: lots of temple usage, no rest spamming, no short-duration prebuffs, and resolving conversations and quests in a way that makes sense, rather than just going for what's most advantageous. It's an approach that has really encouraged the use of stealth and scouting in a way that simply isn't necessary in the base game, but that doesn't help when dealing with non-hostile NPCs.

I guess that's part of why SCS was especially brutal for me: I prefer to avoid casting Power Word: Reload at all costs, and so situations where my only solution is just "I'll just avoid this NPC/area for... some reason" really breaks that roleplaying-inspired style.

This probably isn't what you want to hear, but I alleviate this feeling a bit by powerleveling in the beginning by myself. Go kill basilisks, or just give yourself 30k XP and don't worry about the basilisk garden.