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Has anyone had blanks appear in-game for strings?

2

Comments

  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    I am sorry to hear that. I was looking forward to some new spells. I am afraid you will find the cooperation well running somewhat dry this way.

    Mr2150AstroBryGuy
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,007
    You think the streets of India are fine?

    Anyway, it's likely no one has Leonards secure shelter but someone with lm prefix might be using dss.spl.

    If you want to ignore the community rules and conventions that is your right. It's sure a terrible attitude to have.

    Mr2150AstroBryGuyinethjoluv
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,021
    edited July 2016
    Anyone who you go to ask that they change their 'LMDSS.spl' for your sake will just laugh you off and tell you to get a damn prefix.

    Mr2150AstroBryGuy
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    chimeric said:

    Most people in "civilized" countries think traffic rules are a great thing - until they've been to some place like India where neither drivers nor pedestrians follow them and everyone gets around just fine.

    Hmmmm

    mf2112smeagolheartMr2150AstroBryGuy
  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    edited July 2016
    mf2112 said:

    @chimeric Many people here have helped you and asked for nothing. We are asking you to do something that is a one time thing and takes a couple minutes, to register a prefix that is your unique prefix that protects your files from other mods and then rename a few files. Is that so much?

    No, you're asking me to use that prefix. It would make names confusing for me, and I won't do it. I may put something on the end, like @, to make my creations easier to single out in the override roster and even less likely to clash. But not in the beginning. Enough about that. As for free advice - it's your choice whether to help or not. Presumably you have a reason for doing it, like pleasure of conversation or you want more good mods for the game. But I don't expect any returns on help I give myself, and neither should you. While I appreciate advice, to the extent it's relevant, and consider all important points, you can't expect everything you say to be accepted. Your sound practice may not be suitable for me, and every mod comes with that "use at your own risk" disclaimer. Especially mine. :lol:

    So go on and help, if you want, and see how it works out in the end, or don't.

    Now, for those who do want to help, here are the next questions as I'm getting into the area script for the Secure Shelter. Apparently there is only one script for each area and it runs everything that happens there. So:

    1) How do I influence rest effects? How do I give more or fewer hit points for resting? I know this trigger:

    IF PartyRested() True() THEN - Heal them extra -

    Is this how I do it? Or is there a better way?

    2) How do I clear up an area completely on leaving? If it has different actors in it spawned by the area script (random encounters inside), creatures may have a variety names. And they won't all of them be there at the same time. So when the party leaves, I'll want to put something in the door trigger that will kick out everybody from the place they are leaving. I can do it like this:

    ActionOverride("CREATURE1",DestroySelf()) ActionOverride("CREATURE2",DestroySelf())

    and so on for all of them, even ones not spawned this time. But wouldn't that give an error, if the creature doesn't exist yet? Also, does it remove corpses?

  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    edited July 2016
    chimeric said:

    mf2112 said:

    @chimeric Many people here have helped you and asked for nothing. We are asking you to do something that is a one time thing and takes a couple minutes, to register a prefix that is your unique prefix that protects your files from other mods and then rename a few files. Is that so much?

    No, you're asking me to use that prefix. It would make names confusing for me, and I won't do it. I may put something on the end, like @, to make my creations easier to single out in the override roster and even less likely to clash. But not in the beginning. Enough about that. As for free advice - it's your choice whether to help or not. Presumably you have a reason for doing it, like pleasure of conversation or you want more good mods for the game. But I don't expect any returns on help I give myself, and neither should you. While I appreciate advice, to the extent it's relevant, and consider all important points, you can't expect everything you say to be accepted. Your sound practice may not be suitable for me, and every mod comes with that "use at your own risk" disclaimer. Especially mine. :lol:

    So go on and help, if you want, and see how it works out in the end, or don't.

    Now, for those who do want to help, here are the next questions as I'm getting into the area script for the Secure Shelter. Apparently there is only one script for each area and it runs everything that happens there. So:

    1) How do I influence rest effects? How do I give more or fewer hit points for resting? I know this trigger:

    IF PartyRested() True() THEN - Heal them extra -

    Is this how I do it? Or is there a better way?

    2) How do I clear up an area completely on leaving? If it has different actors in it spawned by the area script (random encounters inside), creatures may have a variety names. And they won't all of them be there at the same time. So when the party leaves, I'll want to put something in the door trigger that will kick out everybody from the place they are leaving. I can do it like this:

    ActionOverride("CREATURE1",DestroySelf()) ActionOverride("CREATURE2",DestroySelf())

    and so on for all of them, even ones not spawned this time. But wouldn't that give an error, if the creature doesn't exist yet? Also, does it remove corpses?
    We are trying to help you. To further your analogy, the countries where this game was originated both have well-regulated traffic systems. When people learn to drive and obtain their licenses, they are taught the rules of the road. When you insist on driving the wrong way down a marked road and potentially causing damage to other people's cars, other people are going to try to help by asking you to use the brake and turn around. They are not likely to show you how to use the accelerator. Your mileage may vary. Good luck.

  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    All right, I've solved the compatibility issue. This is still an idea in progress, but I'll know soon if it works. I'm going to use a suffix instead of a prefix. All my filenames will end with a special character, probably ( . It has good visibility. Like so: LMDSS(.spl or HABERD(.cre. Now I'm checking how it works out. I know for sure that # on the end is accepted by the engine, but I'd like something more distinctive. A suffix like that makes my filenames easy to see in the Override folder and there is no chance of a clash, because no one else does that. And the beginnings of my filenames remain free of clutter so I can recognize what they are about.

    One way or another, I'll have it done.

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 924
    edited July 2016
    Suffixes don't prevent compatibility issues; prefixes do. This is per a community standard of prefixes, which was established well over 10 years ago to prevent compatibility issues. If you have issues with the system we're currently using, you are more than welcome to propose a solution that works better. On another note, I've used a lot of the more rarely used characters at the end of my filenames for various reasons. I'm not going to avoid using certain characters at the end of filenames because you can't be bothered to play nicely with the rest of us.

    If you don't want to take steps to avoid compatibility issues with hundreds of over mods published over the past two decades, I hope for your sake that your mods are able to stand completely alone. No other modder is going to want to deal with the compatibility issues that your carelessness causes.

    smeagolheartMr2150
  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163

    Suffixes don't prevent compatibility issues; prefixes do. This is per a community standard of prefixes, which was established well over 10 years ago to prevent compatibility issues. If you have issues with the system we're currently using, you are more than welcome to propose a solution that works better. On another note, I've used a lot of the more rarely used characters at the end of my filenames for various reasons. I'm not going to avoid using certain characters at the end of filenames because you can't be bothered to play nicely with the rest of us.

    Oh screw that! I'm proposing a perfectly valid solution already, and you just drone away about the prefixes. For an NPC called William, what are the odds of there being another file called WILLIAM#.cre on the same system? I'll tell you exactly: zero, because a) it's just extremely unlikely in its own right, b) you all use prefixes, don't you? You love them so much. So your Williams are going to be called [email protected], or if you want to use a hashtag on the end, AQWILLI#.cre. Neither one is going to clash with my prefix-free files. So what's the problem?

    Don't you see, your communal decision to use prefixes leaves one vacant "opportunity slot" - not to use them? Whoever decides against prefixes now can rest assured his filenames won't clash, because the rest of you all do! And that someone is me. I'll be smart about it, though, and put a hashtag on the end too, to be double-sure. Of course, playing off your prefix use is not a general solution, it's not for everybody. It's just something your group commitment to prefixes has made possible, and I'm going to make use of it. Go on and continue to bear down on new modders and pressure them into adopting a prefix. So long as you do, my prefix-free names will be 100% compatible.

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 924
    edited July 2016
    First of all, the no prefix "opportunity slot" as you call it is already taken by the base game files. Even if you try to be careful, eventually your decision to not use a prefix will cause you to accidentally override a file used by the game, and that will cause an issue (the magnitude of which can vary from inconsequential to game-breaking). If you are developing software, you do have to be concerned on some level with the end-user experience of that software. I doubt many people will use a mod that is capable of breaking their game by itself.

    Second, if you are willing to concede to use a suffix, why are you so morally opposed to using a prefix? It requires basically the same amount of effort on your end, and has the added benefit of all of your files being together when game files are listed alphabetically (e.g. in NearInfinity).

    Third, do you not at all think it is a touch selfish to say "I get to be the one who doesn't follow the rules but all the rest of you better follow them so that I can get away with it." You even say that we should continue to bother new modders about this. We do; that's why we're getting on your case about prefixes in the first place. I don't get some thrill from bothering people on these forums about using prefixes; I am taking steps to protect my mods, and other people's mods, from compatibility issues. I've harassed people who have published top-tier mods (such as @pecca and their More Style for Mages mod) about the importance of using prefixes. No one is above using them.

    Finally, are you not at all concerned that you might be getting off on the wrong foot with the rest of us? We are asking you to do something that takes altogether less than five minutes to do, is relatively easy, and guarantees that there will be no file collision issues in the future. You are welcome to disregard our suggestion, but know that no modder is going to spend their time trying to address compatibility issues caused by your refusal to use a prefix.

    In summary, no one can force you to use a prefix. No one has to help you either. Given that you are new, and that the first steps are the hardest, I would like you to seriously think about whether you want to try to learn all the nuance of modding the Infinity Engine by yourself. Are you really, as a prospective modder who has yet to release even the smallest of mods, going to wager that you alone can do better than the rest of the modding community combined?

    Mr2150Ravenslight
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited July 2016
    Listen, there's really no need for a debate here. Lots of people have been extremely supportive trying to give you advice about how to get into this and quickly learn the ropes of modding the Infinity Engine, which is generally weirder and harder than modding most game engines out there. It's just bit perplexing because every single other time people have posted the link the the prefix registration at blackwyrmlair, the response from the new modder has always been something like "thanks for pointing me toward that, I didn't know about it before." I never seen someone indignantly refuse to participate in the scheme as if the suggestion is burdensome or offensive.

    There is 100% no need for you to register a prefix. But, every single modder who publishes mods here, or at Gibberlings3, or blackwyrmlair, or SHS, or PocketPlane, all of them have registered prefixes. So you just need to understand that if you choose not to, your mod will not be embraced by anyone in those communities. And will not be recommended to players by modders in those communities. I'm not aying this to be a jerk to you; I'm simply saying this to let you know what to expect. It's nothign personal, it's just looking out for players' best interests.
    chimeric said:

    I'm proposing a perfectly valid solution already,

    No, you're not.
    chimeric said:

    what are the odds of there being another file called WILLIAM#.cre on the same system?

    The odds are better than you realize.
    chimeric said:

    So your Williams are going to be called [email protected], or if you want to use a hashtag on the end, AQWILLI#.cre. Neither one is going to clash with my prefix-free files. So what's the problem?

    The problem is, what if someone whose prefix is "WI" wants to make a file called "lliam#.cre?" It will clash with yours - and that modder will have zero way to know that there is a conflict. What if someone whose prefix is "LM" wants to make a spell called "dss.spl" or "dss#.spl?" Etc.
    chimeric said:

    Don't you see, your communal decision to use prefixes leaves one vacant "opportunity slot" - not to use them? Whoever decides against prefixes now can rest assured his filenames won't clash, because the rest of you all do!

    You are incorrect. That guy who is the free rider, not using a prefix? Every single file he adds to the game is at risk of conflicting with (i.e. overwriting, and screwing up) an existing file from an existing mod. Every file you add that starts with two different letters or characters will potentially conflict with a different modder who has those two characters as their prefix. It's simply not a solution for the problem.
    chimeric said:

    And that someone is me.

    Hey, like I say, that is 100% okay for you to do. But it WILL create compatibility issues, and your mod(s) will ultimately be used far less as a result.
    chimeric said:

    Go on and continue to bear down on new modders and pressure them into adopting a prefix

    Again, we have been trying to be helpful, not "bear down" on you.

    Btw I honestly don't understand what you gain by using a suffix instead of a prefix? What's the difference? To be totally honest, it sounds kind of ridiculous that you propose to restrict yourself to the *exact* same degree, but just in a way that doesn't achieve the desired result.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    AquadrizztMr2150Ravenslight
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,021
    Idk how you can actually expect others to put effort into helping you when you don't even have the common courtesy to do a favor to every other respectable modder out there. Do you realize how chaotic and ineffectual the modding community would be if everyone thought the same way as you?

    AquadrizztMr2150Ravenslight
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,007

    Do you realize how chaotic and ineffectual the modding community would be if everyone thought the same way as you?

    Things would be about as chaotic and ineffectual as Indian traffic laws.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185

    Do you realize how chaotic and ineffectual the modding community would be if everyone thought the same way as you?

    Things would be about as chaotic super and ineffectual awesome as Indian traffic laws.
    Fixed that for you. :wink:

  • alceryesalceryes Member Posts: 362
    Just last night I was having some weirdness with item descriptions in Near Infinity. It was my own doing though.
    I'm not sure if it was because I was trying to paste too much text or because I was using MS Word to paste from (I've switched to NP++ now) but NI started doing some weird word wrapping (i.e. instead of 'Dagger' I would see 'ggerDa'. This was also adding spaces to some descriptions.

  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    Don't you expect compatibility issues with accidental letters in the beginning? If someone who doesn't know about your prefixes decides to start a filename with his own initials? Or do you expect the whole world to conform to your rules - and then all will be well?

    Anyway, I'm arguing when I could be modding. I explained that the prefixes are just hard for me to use, I don't want to squint past the first two letters of every file to figure out what's what. So I decided to use the . suffix. Fullstop. You might put _ at the end of your files, or perhaps #, but nobody is ending his filenames with an . are you?

    What's going to happen now is this: I'll drop this thread and in the future post separate questions as they arise in their own threads. Whoever wants to help can do so there. If nobody does, I'll take my questions elsewhere or figure it out on my own. Then, much later, if the mods I make are good and interesting, the real community - the players - will check them out, little by little, the word will spread there are no problems, and all will be good.

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 924
    chimeric said:

    Don't you expect compatibility issues with accidental letters in the beginning? If someone who doesn't know about your prefixes decides to start a filename with his own initials? Or do you expect the whole world to conform to your rules - and then all will be well?

    Well so far the whole world that matters (in regards to Infinity Engine modding) has conformed to the rules and we've avoided issues. Any modder who distributes mods on any serious scale has eventually adopted a prefix in order to avoid the exact issues we've been discussing in this thread.
    chimeric said:

    Anyway, I'm arguing when I could be modding. I explained that the prefixes are just hard for me to use, I don't want to squint past the first two letters of every file to figure out what's what. So I decided to use the . suffix. Fullstop. You might put _ at the end of your files, or perhaps #, but nobody is ending his filenames with an . are you?

    Fine, prefixes are hard for you to use. Not using a prefix means that your mods will be hard for everyone else to use. You are developing software that will ultimately be distributed; you should be thinking about the concerns of the people who will use your software. Not yourself. (This is the same reason why most programmers use comments thoroughly in their code.)

    Amusingly, I'm pretty sure you managed to pick a suffix that will actually cause other issues as it is a WeiDu regexp wildcard. Good luck dealing with the installation errors that come with that.
    chimeric said:

    What's going to happen now is this: I'll drop this thread and in the future post separate questions as they arise in their own threads. Whoever wants to help can do so there. If nobody does, I'll take my questions elsewhere or figure it out on my own. Then, much later, if the mods I make are good and interesting, the real community - the players - will check them out, little by little, the word will spread there are no problems, and all will be good.

    Should you ever produce a mod, I can't wait for you to see first hand just how difficult compatibility issues are to manage. My mods are relatively stable and intentionally coded in a way that seeks to minimize compatibility issues with other mods; I still spend an inordinate amount of time dealing with the compatibility issues that people have found. I can't even imagine how bad it would be if I hadn't been coding in a careful and responsible way from the beginning.

    Best of luck. You have a long and lonely road ahead of you.

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,021
    chimeric said:

    Don't you expect compatibility issues with accidental letters in the beginning? If someone who doesn't know about your prefixes decides to start a filename with his own initials? Or do you expect the whole world to conform to your rules - and then all will be well?

    Anyway, I'm arguing when I could be modding. I explained that the prefixes are just hard for me to use, I don't want to squint past the first two letters of every file to figure out what's what. So I decided to use the . suffix. Fullstop. You might put _ at the end of your files, or perhaps #, but nobody is ending his filenames with an . are you?

    What's going to happen now is this: I'll drop this thread and in the future post separate questions as they arise in their own threads. Whoever wants to help can do so there. If nobody does, I'll take my questions elsewhere or figure it out on my own. Then, much later, if the mods I make are good and interesting, the real community - the players - will check them out, little by little, the word will spread there are no problems, and all will be good.

    Good sodding luck lol

  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    Well, if the fullstop doesn't work, I'll go with something else. Weidu compiled my .d file with a fullstop in the dialogue name, though.

    Best of luck. You have a long and lonely road ahead of you.

    Like anyone who wants to get anywhere.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    edited July 2016
    Out of curiosity, how do you expect future modders who join your quixotic crusade against prefixes, to avoid conflicts with your mod? How will anyone ever know which suffix you end up using so they don't make files with the same suffix?

    Are you expecting everyone to be able to find the third page of this thread asking a question about strrefs?

    I feel like you perceive this as a bunch of jerks coming down on you and trying to force you to operate by their rules, which were decided without consulting you. That's not what this is. It is simply abbey of people engaged in the same project, who have identified a problem due to some crazy old-fashioned technical limitations (8-character filenames) and have hit upon a solution that is easy to implement for everyone and does not place any modder as exceptional. I mean cripes, Beamdog themselves have registered for various prefixes and use them with new files added in BP and SoD. No one is on a pedestal here.

    The idea if using a suffix is:
    1) Insufficient to address the actual problem (as we have already described - other people will use your suffix characters)
    2) No better than a prefix as far as viewing your files alone in a big directory (they will be sorted in exactly the same order)
    3) Inferior when viewed among the rest of the game's files, like in NI (your files will be scattered everywhere, while those with a prefix will be conveniently clumped together and thus far easier to identify)

    If you are really somehow more prone to eyestrain than, y'know, everyone else who's ever done this, than you can choose a prefix that minimizes that. I see that "l_" and "1_" are both available... seems like it would be pretty easy for you to find Leomund's Secure Shelter if it was called 1_lmdss.spl...

    You might be able to use something even less obtrusive. I'm not sure which characters are safe to use - I think "." is probably not - and I see that "__" is already being used. But what about "-_" or maybe "--" ?

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • chimericchimeric Member Posts: 1,163
    edited July 2016
    The fullstop doesn't work. I'll use a combination of underscore and hash: _#. This keeps the beginning of the filename open for me.

    The reason this is better than a prefix is because you should check out files based on relevance, not who made them. If there is a problem with a dialogue of William, look for something that begins with WILL... in Override, and the suffix will let you see who the author is. Don't start with everything an author did and then separate the resource name from behind the first two letters. Linear perspective - inverse perspective, if you know the visual arts.

    Other than this, I have to say you people have been remarkably dense. I explained my reasons, and they are MY reasons, over and over, but it's like blowing a conch shell for a deaf man... I wasted enough time here.

  • Mr2150Mr2150 Member Posts: 1,170
    edited July 2016
    You know, you are right... they are your reasons, you have explained them. Good luck with it!

    Post edited by Mr2150 on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    chimeric said:

    If there is a problem with a dialogue of William, look for something that begins with WILL... in Override, and the suffix will let you see who the author is. Don't start with everything an author did and then separate the resource name from behind the first two letters. Linear perspective - inverse perspective, if you know the visual arts.

    Other than this, I have to say you people have been remarkably dense.

    Honestly? Your idea that you have figured out the One True Way to name mod files is ridiculous (bordering on insane); your intimation that everyone who has done this over the past 15 years has been doing it wrong is insulting (and wrong); and your attitude has been arrogant and offensive, which is particularly inappropriate behavior from a noob working on vaporware interacting with people who have actually published working mods.

    Nevertheless, people have ignored your rude manner and tried to help you, because people are generally nice around here. And in the face of that you decide to hurl overt insults? Jesus Christ, man. Maybe take a moment and re-read this thread and think about how you're acting.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,014
    Suffix's are not viable in-mass, as various effects have hardcoded requirements for either their last or 8th character of their filename.

    inethAquadrizzt
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,185
    Somehow I expect he won't be convinced...

    Mr2150
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,039
    Maybe he's doing mod only for himself.

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,021
    Cahir said:

    Maybe he's doing mod only for himself.

    Somehow I think that's even worse. Is he going to go to other modders with compatibility issues and persuade them to accomodate his bizarre, non-conforming-just-because mod that he's not sharing with anyone else?

This discussion has been closed.