No point in hammers for charname at all no. Dual wield Scimitars and katanas later will get you through both games. Staff of the Magi can be saved for Aerie, Edwin or any other caster you pick in BG2. Jaheira goes best with Club of Detonation / Staff of the Ram / Staff Mace / Spear in BG1 (also available in upper durlags tower if you can kill the sirene). Two handed swords / Katanas are good for Minsk / Keldorn or any single fighter type class. Minsk can also dual wield hammers, be comes with the profiency points to do so in BG2.
Oh yea, and 2 wep fighting bastard swords can go on Khalid if you keep him.
I agree with Mungri. There are enough scimitars that I would start developing a second weapon for BG2 beginning with your level 6 pip. Level 15 is too late in the game to take advantage of a great katana or something since that will require you to have amassed over 3.5M XP which will put you well into TOB.
That takes you through 500K experience which gives you almost all of BG2 to use your primary weapons - either Celestial Fury, Flail of Ages or Frostreaver. Those will work on just about everything and you can specialize in another weapon for later in TOB if you want.
You really only need to develop one of scimitar or shortsword if you want the bonus attacks. As a multi-class fighter, you don't have time for two off-hand weapons.
Id drop the shortswords and use them on someone else. Personally Id still add two points of quarterstaffs to switch to Staff of Striking / Magi if needed.
Bastard Swords would also be better, as there's the shapeshifter bonus on in BG1 which you can use with your +2 Scimitar.
Personally, I think bastard swords are one of the worst choices so I would not advise going that route. Opinions vary.
On quarterstaffs, I would advise going for that beginning with your level 12. The staff of the ram is a blunt weapon and gets to +6 so it is a fine end of the game weapon as well. You can then put points into two hand weapon if you are content with that range of weapons. I don't think you really need more than that anyway. Staff of the Magi's invisibility and spell trap features are so powerful I don't usually use it but it is a very nice option for a F/M as well.
On quarterstaffs, I would advise going for that beginning with your level 12. The staff of the ram is a blunt weapon and gets to +6 so it is a fine end of the game weapon as well. You can then put points into two hand weapon if you are content with that range of weapons. I don't think you really need more than that anyway. Staff of the Magi's invisibility and spell trap features are so powerful I don't usually use it but it is a very nice option for a F/M as well.
Would that not delay getting katana's too long unless I went scimitars>katanas>staves?
You aren't going to have a single katana at level 9. At level 12 you will only have +1s. By the time you get +3 Katanas you will have +5 everything else.
You don't need to put a single point in katanas during BG1, doing so within the first 10 levels is a complete waste of points. You don't need katanas at any point in BG2 either, you are only putting points there because you cant place more than 2 in scimitars as a multiclass, and because there is just one decent Katana that gives you bonus spell slots.
I think this is a classic example of OVERplanning. This is the type of thing I'd do, then when I sat down to play the guy I'd get bored. Concepts of characters are fun, but it's more important to make sure you have fun doing it.
It looks good to me, so if you think you'll have fun doing it, go for it!
Yea tbh I don't even get why you need to take this long to plan any character out. Just roll your multi fighter / mage and stick points wherever. If you don't like it you can easily change proficiencies using shadowkeeper, or just make a new character.
On quarterstaffs, I would advise going for that beginning with your level 12. The staff of the ram is a blunt weapon and gets to +6 so it is a fine end of the game weapon as well. You can then put points into two hand weapon if you are content with that range of weapons. I don't think you really need more than that anyway. Staff of the Magi's invisibility and spell trap features are so powerful I don't usually use it but it is a very nice option for a F/M as well.
Would that not delay getting katana's too long unless I went scimitars>katanas>staves?
You aren't going to have a single katana at level 9. At level 12 you will only have +1s. By the time you get +3 Katanas you will have +5 everything else.
You don't need to put a single point in katanas during BG1, doing so within the first 10 levels is a complete waste of points. You don't need katanas at any point in BG2 either, you are only putting points there because you cant place more than 2 in scimitars as a multiclass, and because there is just one decent Katana that gives you bonus spell slots.
?? I don't follow this.
To reach level 9 fighter as a fighter/mage you need 500K experience. That doesn't happen in BG1 so you can't specialize in a second weapon until BG2.
In BG2, you can get arguably the best weapon in the game in the temple district at any point in the game (fight isn't easy but is doable pretty early with tactics). There is a decent katana that gives you bonus spells and there is Celestial Fury, a weapon you can use for almost the entire game. Both are available very shortly after leaving Chateu Irenicus.
I think this is a classic example of OVERplanning. This is the type of thing I'd do, then when I sat down to play the guy I'd get bored. Concepts of characters are fun, but it's more important to make sure you have fun doing it.
It looks good to me, so if you think you'll have fun doing it, go for it!
This is true that having fun is first and foremost. A lot of people, however, would end up frustrated if they just picked spears or something with their level 6 proficiency point. You don't have to go katana, but a lot of people are going to get frustrated (reducing fun) if they don't take that first proficiency point at level 6 for something useful in BG2 (bearing in mind that as a F/M you can't specialize in a second weapon in BG1 if you take points in dual wield). So you can go axe, katana, flail or any number of other weapons but if you are going to dual wield then you need to plan ahead some. If you just pick something like two handed swords or long bow at level 6 so you can use that in BG1, you will end up needing 2M total experience to specialize in a second weapon instead of a total of 500K. The difference is between specializing early in BG2 and specializing after you are halfway done with SOA.
The axe and the flail are both accessible early as well with Nalia's quest. There isn't a weapon you can't use successfully, though. You can get through the game with daggers if you want.
What the ...? Bit of a contrarian opinion here, but Two Weapon Fighting is going to suck for most of BG.
This may have been already covered, but even with three pips in TWF, your offhand is still going to have a -2 thac0 penalty. That's enormous in the first game. Offhand weapons are also weaker because they confer no special attributes, just a flat thac0 and damage bonus.
This will leave you with bigger burst damage and weak defenses, and that combination means RNG will eventually eff you.
You're much better off, particularly at low levels, equipping a shield to help mitigate your lousy AC. Or even going single weapon for the AC and crit bonus and equipping an extra ranged weapon.
In BG, even Tutu, the goal should be to get your AC and thac0 as low as possible as quickly as possible. And ranged still rules the day. (As an aside, if you're playing this character in Tutu on Core, those extra large size spawn groups will slap the hell out of a TWF toon with ease).
This is an almost entire different focus than BG2 -- where shields and range aren't nearly as important -- and given that I think it's acceptable to use Shadowkeeper to tweak your profs in between the two games.
Edit: Playing this in BG:EE will still likely suck, for most of the same reasons. The only way I could see going TWF in the first game is if Beamdog adds offhand weapons that give your extra attacks or some kind of defense.
I've successfully soloed both BG1 and BG2 with dual wielding and no shield several times.
In the early game a shield is going to do nothing to help you survive, however a ranged weapon will. Just because you make a TWF fighter doesn't mean you can't equip a bow. Once you have access to mirror image and stoneskins, you can happily melee away at everything with two weapons. Sword + shield has always been weak compared to two weapon fighting, and the -2 offhand thaco barely matters on a fighter or swashbuckler.
There's already an offhand weapon in BG1 that gives you defense - Drizzt's scimitar defender.
I've successfully soloed both BG1 and BG2 with dual wielding and no shield several times.
Not to impugn you, but offhand guess: Doing that requires a healthy dose of cheese.
In the early game a shield is going to do nothing to help you survive, however a ranged weapon will. Just because you make a TWF fighter doesn't mean you can't equip a bow. Once you have access to mirror image and stoneskins, you can happily melee away at everything with two weapons. Sword + shield has always been weak compared to two weapon fighting, and the -2 offhand thaco barely matters on a fighter or swashbuckler.
Huh? Shields are immensely helpful at the start of the game. Not only do they progressively lower your AC, the larger ones give you added protection against missile weapons, which are much more prevalent in BG than SoA. Using a shield and not using one makes a *noticeable* difference in terms of damage taken on any low level melee character.
As an aside, I never said anything about Sword & Shield.
And sure, you can equip a bow with TWF but doing so means opening up the inventory screen at the start of every fight and manually switching the weapons around. Some people have a higher tolerance for that kind of tedium, but personally I could never put up with it for long.
Stoneskin is a BG2 spell, and besides which it's also level 4. The OP's mage side wouldn't get until he was level 7, at the tail end of the game. Mirror Images is a great spell but not quite powerful at low levels, where it generates less images & can still allow you to he it through them. Either way, those two spells aren't great counters for good base AC and they do nothing to mitigate the gimpy offhand thac0 you get from TWF.
Good point about Defender, but getting it means killing Drizzt & the only way to do that is to, again, really cheese it. And, of course, you're sticking the best weapon in the game (+5!) into a slot that can only ever attack once per round, completely removing a big advantage of the fighter class.
You miss the point that you can't use a bow and a shield. In the early game ranged > melee while you will die in 1-2 hits regardless. Even with a shield you aren't going to survive against most enemies.
Were not playing a fighter here, were playing a fighter / mage. With mage buffs 2WF is the way to go, you also get haste to attack faster and plenty of buffs to make you near invincible.
You miss the point that you can't use a bow and a shield. In the early game ranged > melee while you will die in 1-2 hits regardless. Even with a shield you aren't going to survive against most enemies.
I'm assuming a full party and a melee focused F/M front liner for the first game. In that context, a shield very much makes a difference. Anyone in melee range with an AC north of zero is going to get hurt quickly.
You're recommending the OP put two pips into a weapon specialization that you admit he can't get any use out of at all for the first three fighter levels.
That is the largest problem with TWF in BG1. There's no way to make it effective for the bulk of the game. Even with Rangers, who start out with two pips in TWF, it's not terribly attractive.
Were not playing a fighter here, were playing a fighter / mage. With mage buffs 2WF is the way to go, you also get haste to attack faster and plenty of buffs to make you near invincible.
... Haste is a level 3 mage spell which the OP won't have access to until his mage side is level 5. IIRC, the scroll to learn it is only available in the city of Baldur's Gate (so chapter 5/7 at a bare minimum).
That's the problem with this kind of min/maxing (in, arguably, a game that's not really suited for it). There's a tendency to look at what's powerful and effective in the final 10-20% of the game and recommend *that* while conveniently ignoring the player has to get there first, and what kind of gaming experience he'll having while doing it.
TWF is awesome in BG2, but in BG1 the disadvantages don't outweigh the added melee damage you get from doing it (sometimes, RNG willing).
You simply don't melee focus a F/M for the initial levels of the game. Just because you don't have any understanding of how to play this type of class does not make shields better. Sword and shield style has always been the weakest weapon style to pick in BG, and it is most definitely a waste for a F/M.
It takes absolutely no time whatsoever to reach level 5 in BG1, and as already said if you so require it, you can still equip a shield, nothing prevents you from doing that, you are simply setting yourself up with this build to eventually use drizzt's scimitars, and the OP also wants to continue this character into BG2.
There's nothing wrong at all with putting 2 points in TWF at the start of your game, doing so doesn't dictate that you have to use 2 weapons right away (which you don't do, you use ranged weapons at the start of the game, and 2 weapons after you are sufficiently geared).
All of your assumptions are simply terrible, and based on a very narrow understanding of the game. If considering making a character to play through both BG1 and BG2, you are too concerned over what is insignificantly better for the first 5-10% of the game, rather than the remaining 90%+.
@Mungri - Hey, I'm willing to be schooled. Here are the problems I see around a TWF based F/M. Please tell me how your build mitigates any of these issues in an unmodded game.
- You need to spend a *half* of your available weapon proficiency points in TWF, which confers zero benefit to the PC at the start of the game.
- In BG1, you max out at 4/2/2 or 4/3/2/1 spells per day, which leaves you just enough slots to memorize defensive spells. And nothing else (unless you cheese rest mechanics). This seems a lot of work to essentially recreate a pure class fighter in plate, who may or may not have just chugged an Oil of Speed.
- Your offhand is going to miss upwards of 70-75% of the time. More in early and mid-game. (Toward the end of the game, a level 6/6 Fighter/Mage has a base thac0 of 15.)
- TWF has no advantages outside of RNG burst damage. Critical hits with Single Weapon and Two Handed specializations offer better sustained DPS *and* give you secondary benefits, like an AC bonus or faster weapon speeds.
- To make a TWF build really work requires an abnormally high strength (above 18/50), that the PC be an elf, and that you wield both of Drizzt's weapons (which requires the player to exploit game mechanics).
Maybe I'm way off base, but even looking at this from the character creation screen, the numbers don't add up. The additional damage doesn't compensate for weaker defensives and offhand penalty.
Here's what I think you are basing your recommendation off of:
- You played a Tutu game on Core or higher, not realizing that Tutu throws large spawns and a ton of kill XP at you very early in the game, allowing even multis to gain levels quickly. But BG:EE isn't Tutu, and it remains to be seen how Beamdog will handle this.
- You were probably forced to cheese rest mechanics, because of the small number of spells per day allowed to generalist mages in BG1. At level 3/3, your spells per day are only 2/1. Which gives you two Armors or Shields and just one Mirror Image. And you're still working with a base AC of 6 (assuming a max DEX).
- You exploited dumb AI and killed Drizzt as soon as you could, because without his weapons TWF obviously becomes much, much weaker. (Before you hit the expansion content, there are no other weapons that give you more than a +2 bonus.)
- You used mods that placed BG2 spell scrolls like Stoneskin in the game.
- You played without the level cap, completely removing the biggest limitation of multi-class characters.
And if you did, all that is cool, because this is a single player game and it's about having fun. But I think there's a huge difference between playing that way and offering this build as general advice to a new kind of player, without mentioning all the exceptions.
But heres the thing - with a Fighter / Mage, you can only put two points into your primary weapon. You still have two points left over which really dont need to go into any other weapon type, and I dont see how sword and shield style would be useful in the long run on a Fighter / Mage compared to TWF.
As long as you have 2 points in the weapon you plan on using, its not important where the rest of your points go. I did a Swashbuckler / Mage with 2 Scimitar / 1 Shortbow / 1 TWF up to level 10, then Quarterstaff and Darts during the Mage levels, and then more TWF after getting swashbuckler levels back.
During my swashbuckler levels I cheesed stuff with traps and a shortbow. I think that polymorph self is a spell available in BG1, if so then a F/M can pretty much use that and rape just about everything in sword spider form, but getting up to level 4 spells is the tricky part. I remember what I did though, I used lots of wands.
You dont need to kill drizzt to make use of 2WF - you can just use +2 scimitar and a +2 Longsword.
When BGEE is released, I will do a solo swashbuckler / mage run again dualing at level 6 instead of 10 and staying within the level cap.
My plan will be:
Level 1 Swash - 1 point in Scimitar, 1 point in Shortbow Level 4 Swash - 2nd point in Scimitar Level 6 Swash - Dual to Mage Level 1 Mage - 1 point in Quarterstaff Level 6 Mage - 1 point in 2WF. Level 9 Mage - 2nd point in 2WF
But heres the thing - with a Fighter / Mage, you can only put two points into your primary weapon. You still have two points left over which really dont need to go into any other weapon type, and I dont see how sword and shield style would be useful in the long run on a Fighter / Mage compared to TWF
You're right. It leaves you sorta stuck, which is one of the other reasons I don't like TWF for BG1. You need 7 pips to max out two different kinds of weapons and all of TWF, which you can't get until level 9 (and BG2).
As an aside, I have not once advocated Sword & Shield (not sure where you're getting that from). I agree it's not that good.
But something like Single Weapon fighting is a bit more useful. You get a -1 AC boost any time you choose to go into melee, and you double your chance of scoring a critical hit. For 2handers (like Spider's Bane) Two Handed style gives you faster weapon speed and increased chance at crits. Personally, at low levels, I think more crits with no downside is better than anything dual wielding offers.
You dont need to kill drizzt to make use of 2WF - you can just use +2 scimitar and a +2 Longsword
The only +2 Scimitar isn't available until you get to TotSC and the top of Durlag's tower. You also don't have enough weapon profs to max out two weapons and TWF (which requires 7 pips).
Putting a +2 weapon into your offhand negates the penalty (which is good) but you don't get any clear advantage either, outside a little bit of extra damage. Then there's the opportunity cost -- if you're using that weapon, it's not available to any of the NPCs in your party.
BG:EE will change this, but right now the original game only offers a single +2 weapon and a few, more common, +1 weapons for any profieciency. Dual wielding with that combo means either not taking full advantage of your main hand or still suffering a thac0 penalty in your offhand.
Heres another clip of my Tutu solo (this was actually my third time soloing, first I did a Kensai / Mage dual, then a Cleric / Mage multi, and finally a Swash / Mage).
This clip shows how you dont even need weapons or stoneskin at all, and though I had melfs minute meteors which is illegal in BG1, I rarely had to use them. The first part is the Iron throne battle which is easy and boring, the second half is probably the hardest fight in the whole game - Degrodels house with loads of undead horrors for which I just needed plenty of haste and fire wands:
All I really needed the Swashbuckler levels for was AC, locks, traps (disarming and setting), stealth, and hit bonuses when polymorphed. It will be hard to manage all of with just 5 levels of swashbuckler in the level cap playthrough, so I might need 6-7 levels instead depending on whether they increase the cap or not.
The tutu mod didnt actually add stoneskin to the game, just melfs meteors I think.
TBH I wouldnt reccomend making a multi class Fighter / Mage at all for BG1. Under the default level cap and with BG2 kits added, I would just make a 6 swashbuckler / 9 mage. Anything that stops you getting to level 5 spells is bad.
The only +2 Scimitar isn't available until you get to TotSC and the top of Durlag's tower.
So what? I got it before even killing silke or doing anything else in the game, its easy to get with some potions / scrolls. And you level up extremely fast there if grabbing it solo. Though it might outlevel you to over level 6 if you are starting out as a Rogue because I got to level 7 just getting the +2 Scimitar solo. Hopefully the XP cap will be raised for BGEE too.
Well the discussion seems to have progressed overnight (I'm in the UK)! Whilst I'm aware of the merits of a swashie mage, just to be clear, I *do* still want to do BGEE & BG2EE as a fighter/mage, and probably as an elf at that (the gnome build is a better spellcaster, but an elf suits how I want to RP this, can romance and gets +1 THAC0 with swords/bows). I'm aware that a F/M does not reach its full potential in BG1, but its not as bad as trying to keep a kensai PC alive in BG1 just so you can cheese to a Kensai>Mage in BG2...
Also to say, though, that I don't think I want kill Drizzt in BG1EE, even if I could and in any case wouldn't be able to use his +5/-2AC scimitar anyway, as intend to play neutral or evil (so no Azuredge in BG2EE either). I'm not sure I like cheesing the +2 scimitar on top of Durlag's Tower early on either, maybe I should just stick to long swords or perhaps short swords (though my thief would benefit more from those - I'll be in a group, not solo-ing).
Regarding the AC issue - my F/M will have high Dex and be using one of the +1 protection rings ( and the ring of wizardry to give my spells a boost) from near the start, with Shield spell, this takes AC to -1 I think... Then later there's blur and mirror image etc. Also, to bear in mind that having pips in TWF doesn't stop you using a shield when you want to, nor does *not* having pips in bow stop you still being able to hit with a longbow as an elf F/M in BG1, also that a shield doesn't help when you *do* want to use a bow...
On the flip side I can see the benefits of SWF for a F/M, but more for the lower levels, when your buffs are weak, and am just thinking it might be a bit of a waste of pips at higher levels. THWF obviously could be useful for a F/M for both staves and two-handed swords, though my main mage and tank (which my F/M is not going to be, in BG1, anyway), respectively, will probably be using the best of those.
Assuming I want an elf melee-focused, non-shield using F/M what's a serious alternative of proficiency picks then if not going to TWF route?
I guess this would be okay:
Lvl 1 Longsword ++ Single weapon fighting ++
Lvl 3 Longsword ++ Single weapon fighting ++ Staves +
Lvl 6 Longsword ++ Single weapon fighting ++ Staves ++
Lvl 12 Longsword ++ Single weapon fighting ++ Staves ++ Two-handed fighting + (don't think it's worth an extra pip just for -2 speed) Two handed swords +
Then another pip in two-handed swords next time.
Looks an okay build, but which is it better for most of BG2 (not just the last bit)? I can manage being a little sub-optimal in BG1, as long as will be strong throughout BG2
@Oxford_Guy Dual wielding is highly effective in BG2, especially at later levels, so I hope I didn't scare you off it. My only point is that it requires specific gear & a larger allotment of spells to work.
I tend to shy away from Weapon Specializations in BG1 because the PC has such a limited amount of pips. I almost always want to max both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon right from the start.
Because everybody's starting numbers absolutely stink, and don't start getting decent for 5-6 levels, anything that doesn't directly lower thac0 or make a character harder to hit isn't a priority for the first game.
That said, Single Weapon style and Two Hander style have one big difference: You only need to put 1 pip into Single Weapon to get a -1 AC bonus *and* crits on rolls of 19 or 20.
The Two Hander style requires two pips to get the extra crit chance (before that, it gives you a bonus to weapon speed, which isn't so great). This makes it slightly less attractive, but I thought SandmanCCL made a good point previously: Web + Spider's Bane = Good times.
Extra criticals are good, obviously, but how many enemies are immune to crits, either because they have a helmet or some other immunity, in BG1 and especially later in BG2? i.e. is having a greater chance of crits a keeper? I've no idea about this BTW, which is why I'm asking!
Comments
Oh yea, and 2 wep fighting bastard swords can go on Khalid if you keep him.
Lvl 1:
Scimitars **
TWF **
Lvl 3:
Scimitars **
TWF ***
Lvl 6:
Scimitars **
TWF ***
Shortswords *
Lvl 9:
Scimitars **
TWF ***
Shortswords **
Lvl 12:
Scimitars **
TWF ***
Shortswords **
Katanas *
Lvl 15:
Scimitars **
TWF ***
Shortswords **
Katanas **
I would go:
1 - 2* scimitar; 2* dual weapon
3 - 2* scimitar; 3* dual weapon
6 - 2* scimitar; 3* dual weapon; 1* katana, axe or flail
9 - 6 - 2* scimitar; 3* dual weapon; 2* katana, axe or flail
That takes you through 500K experience which gives you almost all of BG2 to use your primary weapons - either Celestial Fury, Flail of Ages or Frostreaver. Those will work on just about everything and you can specialize in another weapon for later in TOB if you want.
You really only need to develop one of scimitar or shortsword if you want the bonus attacks. As a multi-class fighter, you don't have time for two off-hand weapons.
Bastard Swords would also be better, as there's the shapeshifter bonus on in BG1 which you can use with your +2 Scimitar.
Another options, but are any of the BG2 bastard swords worth it? How many shapeshifters are there in BG1 and BG2?
Even longswords instead actually, and dualwield Scimitar +2 and Greywolf's Longsword +2.
On quarterstaffs, I would advise going for that beginning with your level 12. The staff of the ram is a blunt weapon and gets to +6 so it is a fine end of the game weapon as well. You can then put points into two hand weapon if you are content with that range of weapons. I don't think you really need more than that anyway. Staff of the Magi's invisibility and spell trap features are so powerful I don't usually use it but it is a very nice option for a F/M as well.
You don't need to put a single point in katanas during BG1, doing so within the first 10 levels is a complete waste of points. You don't need katanas at any point in BG2 either, you are only putting points there because you cant place more than 2 in scimitars as a multiclass, and because there is just one decent Katana that gives you bonus spell slots.
It looks good to me, so if you think you'll have fun doing it, go for it!
Lvl 1 - 2 pips scimitar / 2 pips dual weapon
Lvl 3 - 1 pip dual weapon
Lvls 6 & 9 - 2 pips katana
Lvl 12 - staff or something else
?? I don't follow this.
To reach level 9 fighter as a fighter/mage you need 500K experience. That doesn't happen in BG1 so you can't specialize in a second weapon until BG2.
In BG2, you can get arguably the best weapon in the game in the temple district at any point in the game (fight isn't easy but is doable pretty early with tactics). There is a decent katana that gives you bonus spells and there is Celestial Fury, a weapon you can use for almost the entire game. Both are available very shortly after leaving Chateu Irenicus. This is true that having fun is first and foremost. A lot of people, however, would end up frustrated if they just picked spears or something with their level 6 proficiency point. You don't have to go katana, but a lot of people are going to get frustrated (reducing fun) if they don't take that first proficiency point at level 6 for something useful in BG2 (bearing in mind that as a F/M you can't specialize in a second weapon in BG1 if you take points in dual wield). So you can go axe, katana, flail or any number of other weapons but if you are going to dual wield then you need to plan ahead some. If you just pick something like two handed swords or long bow at level 6 so you can use that in BG1, you will end up needing 2M total experience to specialize in a second weapon instead of a total of 500K. The difference is between specializing early in BG2 and specializing after you are halfway done with SOA.
This may have been already covered, but even with three pips in TWF, your offhand is still going to have a -2 thac0 penalty. That's enormous in the first game. Offhand weapons are also weaker because they confer no special attributes, just a flat thac0 and damage bonus.
This will leave you with bigger burst damage and weak defenses, and that combination means RNG will eventually eff you.
You're much better off, particularly at low levels, equipping a shield to help mitigate your lousy AC. Or even going single weapon for the AC and crit bonus and equipping an extra ranged weapon.
In BG, even Tutu, the goal should be to get your AC and thac0 as low as possible as quickly as possible. And ranged still rules the day. (As an aside, if you're playing this character in Tutu on Core, those extra large size spawn groups will slap the hell out of a TWF toon with ease).
This is an almost entire different focus than BG2 -- where shields and range aren't nearly as important -- and given that I think it's acceptable to use Shadowkeeper to tweak your profs in between the two games.
Edit: Playing this in BG:EE will still likely suck, for most of the same reasons. The only way I could see going TWF in the first game is if Beamdog adds offhand weapons that give your extra attacks or some kind of defense.
In the early game a shield is going to do nothing to help you survive, however a ranged weapon will. Just because you make a TWF fighter doesn't mean you can't equip a bow. Once you have access to mirror image and stoneskins, you can happily melee away at everything with two weapons. Sword + shield has always been weak compared to two weapon fighting, and the -2 offhand thaco barely matters on a fighter or swashbuckler.
There's already an offhand weapon in BG1 that gives you defense - Drizzt's scimitar defender.
As an aside, I never said anything about Sword & Shield.
And sure, you can equip a bow with TWF but doing so means opening up the inventory screen at the start of every fight and manually switching the weapons around. Some people have a higher tolerance for that kind of tedium, but personally I could never put up with it for long.
Stoneskin is a BG2 spell, and besides which it's also level 4. The OP's mage side wouldn't get until he was level 7, at the tail end of the game. Mirror Images is a great spell but not quite powerful at low levels, where it generates less images & can still allow you to he it through them. Either way, those two spells aren't great counters for good base AC and they do nothing to mitigate the gimpy offhand thac0 you get from TWF.
Good point about Defender, but getting it means killing Drizzt & the only way to do that is to, again, really cheese it. And, of course, you're sticking the best weapon in the game (+5!) into a slot that can only ever attack once per round, completely removing a big advantage of the fighter class.
Were not playing a fighter here, were playing a fighter / mage. With mage buffs 2WF is the way to go, you also get haste to attack faster and plenty of buffs to make you near invincible.
You're recommending the OP put two pips into a weapon specialization that you admit he can't get any use out of at all for the first three fighter levels.
That is the largest problem with TWF in BG1. There's no way to make it effective for the bulk of the game. Even with Rangers, who start out with two pips in TWF, it's not terribly attractive. ... Haste is a level 3 mage spell which the OP won't have access to until his mage side is level 5. IIRC, the scroll to learn it is only available in the city of Baldur's Gate (so chapter 5/7 at a bare minimum).
That's the problem with this kind of min/maxing (in, arguably, a game that's not really suited for it). There's a tendency to look at what's powerful and effective in the final 10-20% of the game and recommend *that* while conveniently ignoring the player has to get there first, and what kind of gaming experience he'll having while doing it.
TWF is awesome in BG2, but in BG1 the disadvantages don't outweigh the added melee damage you get from doing it (sometimes, RNG willing).
It takes absolutely no time whatsoever to reach level 5 in BG1, and as already said if you so require it, you can still equip a shield, nothing prevents you from doing that, you are simply setting yourself up with this build to eventually use drizzt's scimitars, and the OP also wants to continue this character into BG2.
There's nothing wrong at all with putting 2 points in TWF at the start of your game, doing so doesn't dictate that you have to use 2 weapons right away (which you don't do, you use ranged weapons at the start of the game, and 2 weapons after you are sufficiently geared).
All of your assumptions are simply terrible, and based on a very narrow understanding of the game. If considering making a character to play through both BG1 and BG2, you are too concerned over what is insignificantly better for the first 5-10% of the game, rather than the remaining 90%+.
- You need to spend a *half* of your available weapon proficiency points in TWF, which confers zero benefit to the PC at the start of the game.
- In BG1, you max out at 4/2/2 or 4/3/2/1 spells per day, which leaves you just enough slots to memorize defensive spells. And nothing else (unless you cheese rest mechanics). This seems a lot of work to essentially recreate a pure class fighter in plate, who may or may not have just chugged an Oil of Speed.
- Your offhand is going to miss upwards of 70-75% of the time. More in early and mid-game. (Toward the end of the game, a level 6/6 Fighter/Mage has a base thac0 of 15.)
- TWF has no advantages outside of RNG burst damage. Critical hits with Single Weapon and Two Handed specializations offer better sustained DPS *and* give you secondary benefits, like an AC bonus or faster weapon speeds.
- To make a TWF build really work requires an abnormally high strength (above 18/50), that the PC be an elf, and that you wield both of Drizzt's weapons (which requires the player to exploit game mechanics).
Maybe I'm way off base, but even looking at this from the character creation screen, the numbers don't add up. The additional damage doesn't compensate for weaker defensives and offhand penalty.
Here's what I think you are basing your recommendation off of:
- You played a Tutu game on Core or higher, not realizing that Tutu throws large spawns and a ton of kill XP at you very early in the game, allowing even multis to gain levels quickly. But BG:EE isn't Tutu, and it remains to be seen how Beamdog will handle this.
- You were probably forced to cheese rest mechanics, because of the small number of spells per day allowed to generalist mages in BG1. At level 3/3, your spells per day are only 2/1. Which gives you two Armors or Shields and just one Mirror Image. And you're still working with a base AC of 6 (assuming a max DEX).
- You exploited dumb AI and killed Drizzt as soon as you could, because without his weapons TWF obviously becomes much, much weaker. (Before you hit the expansion content, there are no other weapons that give you more than a +2 bonus.)
- You used mods that placed BG2 spell scrolls like Stoneskin in the game.
- You played without the level cap, completely removing the biggest limitation of multi-class characters.
And if you did, all that is cool, because this is a single player game and it's about having fun. But I think there's a huge difference between playing that way and offering this build as general advice to a new kind of player, without mentioning all the exceptions.
But heres the thing - with a Fighter / Mage, you can only put two points into your primary weapon. You still have two points left over which really dont need to go into any other weapon type, and I dont see how sword and shield style would be useful in the long run on a Fighter / Mage compared to TWF.
As long as you have 2 points in the weapon you plan on using, its not important where the rest of your points go. I did a Swashbuckler / Mage with 2 Scimitar / 1 Shortbow / 1 TWF up to level 10, then Quarterstaff and Darts during the Mage levels, and then more TWF after getting swashbuckler levels back.
During my swashbuckler levels I cheesed stuff with traps and a shortbow. I think that polymorph self is a spell available in BG1, if so then a F/M can pretty much use that and rape just about everything in sword spider form, but getting up to level 4 spells is the tricky part. I remember what I did though, I used lots of wands.
You dont need to kill drizzt to make use of 2WF - you can just use +2 scimitar and a +2 Longsword.
When BGEE is released, I will do a solo swashbuckler / mage run again dualing at level 6 instead of 10 and staying within the level cap.
My plan will be:
Level 1 Swash - 1 point in Scimitar, 1 point in Shortbow
Level 4 Swash - 2nd point in Scimitar
Level 6 Swash - Dual to Mage
Level 1 Mage - 1 point in Quarterstaff
Level 6 Mage - 1 point in 2WF.
Level 9 Mage - 2nd point in 2WF
Ah right, heres how I killed Drizzt:
Swashbuckler haz traps
As an aside, I have not once advocated Sword & Shield (not sure where you're getting that from). I agree it's not that good.
But something like Single Weapon fighting is a bit more useful. You get a -1 AC boost any time you choose to go into melee, and you double your chance of scoring a critical hit. For 2handers (like Spider's Bane) Two Handed style gives you faster weapon speed and increased chance at crits. Personally, at low levels, I think more crits with no downside is better than anything dual wielding offers. The only +2 Scimitar isn't available until you get to TotSC and the top of Durlag's tower. You also don't have enough weapon profs to max out two weapons and TWF (which requires 7 pips).
Putting a +2 weapon into your offhand negates the penalty (which is good) but you don't get any clear advantage either, outside a little bit of extra damage. Then there's the opportunity cost -- if you're using that weapon, it's not available to any of the NPCs in your party.
BG:EE will change this, but right now the original game only offers a single +2 weapon and a few, more common, +1 weapons for any profieciency. Dual wielding with that combo means either not taking full advantage of your main hand or still suffering a thac0 penalty in your offhand.
This clip shows how you dont even need weapons or stoneskin at all, and though I had melfs minute meteors which is illegal in BG1, I rarely had to use them. The first part is the Iron throne battle which is easy and boring, the second half is probably the hardest fight in the whole game - Degrodels house with loads of undead horrors for which I just needed plenty of haste and fire wands:
All I really needed the Swashbuckler levels for was AC, locks, traps (disarming and setting), stealth, and hit bonuses when polymorphed. It will be hard to manage all of with just 5 levels of swashbuckler in the level cap playthrough, so I might need 6-7 levels instead depending on whether they increase the cap or not.
The tutu mod didnt actually add stoneskin to the game, just melfs meteors I think.
TBH I wouldnt reccomend making a multi class Fighter / Mage at all for BG1. Under the default level cap and with BG2 kits added, I would just make a 6 swashbuckler / 9 mage. Anything that stops you getting to level 5 spells is bad. So what? I got it before even killing silke or doing anything else in the game, its easy to get with some potions / scrolls. And you level up extremely fast there if grabbing it solo. Though it might outlevel you to over level 6 if you are starting out as a Rogue because I got to level 7 just getting the +2 Scimitar solo. Hopefully the XP cap will be raised for BGEE too.
Also to say, though, that I don't think I want kill Drizzt in BG1EE, even if I could and in any case wouldn't be able to use his +5/-2AC scimitar anyway, as intend to play neutral or evil (so no Azuredge in BG2EE either). I'm not sure I like cheesing the +2 scimitar on top of Durlag's Tower early on either, maybe I should just stick to long swords or perhaps short swords (though my thief would benefit more from those - I'll be in a group, not solo-ing).
Regarding the AC issue - my F/M will have high Dex and be using one of the +1 protection rings ( and the ring of wizardry to give my spells a boost) from near the start, with Shield spell, this takes AC to -1 I think... Then later there's blur and mirror image etc. Also, to bear in mind that having pips in TWF doesn't stop you using a shield when you want to, nor does *not* having pips in bow stop you still being able to hit with a longbow as an elf F/M in BG1, also that a shield doesn't help when you *do* want to use a bow...
On the flip side I can see the benefits of SWF for a F/M, but more for the lower levels, when your buffs are weak, and am just thinking it might be a bit of a waste of pips at higher levels. THWF obviously could be useful for a F/M for both staves and two-handed swords, though my main mage and tank (which my F/M is not going to be, in BG1, anyway), respectively, will probably be using the best of those.
Assuming I want an elf melee-focused, non-shield using F/M what's a serious alternative of proficiency picks then if not going to TWF route?
I guess this would be okay:
Lvl 1
Longsword ++
Single weapon fighting ++
Lvl 3
Longsword ++
Single weapon fighting ++
Staves +
Lvl 6
Longsword ++
Single weapon fighting ++
Staves ++
Lvl 9
Longsword ++
Single weapon fighting ++
Staves ++
Two-handed fighting +
Lvl 12
Longsword ++
Single weapon fighting ++
Staves ++
Two-handed fighting + (don't think it's worth an extra pip just for -2 speed)
Two handed swords +
Then another pip in two-handed swords next time.
Looks an okay build, but which is it better for most of BG2 (not just the last bit)? I can manage being a little sub-optimal in BG1, as long as will be strong throughout BG2
I tend to shy away from Weapon Specializations in BG1 because the PC has such a limited amount of pips. I almost always want to max both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon right from the start.
Because everybody's starting numbers absolutely stink, and don't start getting decent for 5-6 levels, anything that doesn't directly lower thac0 or make a character harder to hit isn't a priority for the first game.
That said, Single Weapon style and Two Hander style have one big difference: You only need to put 1 pip into Single Weapon to get a -1 AC bonus *and* crits on rolls of 19 or 20.
The Two Hander style requires two pips to get the extra crit chance (before that, it gives you a bonus to weapon speed, which isn't so great). This makes it slightly less attractive, but I thought SandmanCCL made a good point previously: Web + Spider's Bane = Good times.