Specialist mage question

MasterChef

I'm planning on doing a full run of the series with a half-elf multi-class fighter / mage, and was going to use a mod to give my character a mage specialization.

While I know the conjurer specialization is the typical "power" specialization, losing only divination spells, I was wondering if the saving throw bonuses (both offensively and defensively) could make one of the other specializations more interesting, especially since I'll be running with a full party. For example, has anyone noticed if the saving throw bonuses make an Invoker character considerably more effective in fights? Thanks for the help!

semiticgoddess

Specialization schools will empower the following spells:

Abjuration
None

Conjuration
Glitterdust
Prismatic Spray
Symbol: Stun

Divination
None

Enchantment
Sleep
Charm Person
Ray of Enfeeblement
Dire Charm
Hold Person
Emotion
Confusion
Chaos
Hold Monster
Feeblemind

Evocation
Chromatic Orb
Web
Stinking Cloud
Fireball
Lightning Bolt
Sunfire
Cone of Cold
Chain Lightning
Delayed Blast Fireball
Incendiary Cloud

Illusion
Blindness
Spook

Necromancy
Chill Touch (not Ghoul Touch, though)
Horror
Skull Trap
Contagion
Finger of Death
Horrid Wilting
Wail of the Banshee

Transmutation
Slow
Polymorph Other
Flesh to Stone
Disintegrate
Sphere of Chaos

TheArtisan

^Conjurers are overrated. People should play more Enchanters. Abjurers still suck.

JumboWheat01

At least Abjurers have spells. Diviners got squat to play around with, like they usually do in cRPGs of the PnP games. Which is a pity, Divination may be my second favorite school of magic, after Transmutation.

TheArtisan

At least Diviners don't lose Stoneskin and Time Stop.

Kurona

Enchanters lose Sequencers and Contingencies...

sarevok57

if you want to choose a specialization for temrs of the sweetskit saving throw penalty your enemies are going to have then I would try and choose from either of the 2:

enchanter: yes you lose magic missile, lightning bolt and fireball, but the thing about enchantment spells is that they are still VERY powerful all the same, especially hold monster, that spell is a beast on its on, but with an enchanter baddies get a killer -4 penalty to the save, and better yet, its the save vs spell save, not save vs death, anything that makes an enemy save vs spell instead of death is waaaaaaaaaay better, anyway, 2 crazy deadly spells for enchanters are emotion and hold monster, but harsh saving throw penalties you will see a lot of your baddies stuck in place while you wave ur willy in their faces because they cant get you, plus other crowd control spells like confusion and chaos, for the enemies who are immune to hold spells, these are also killers, especially to caster groups whose save vs spell are a little better, with an enchanter casting chaos their enemies get a whopping -6 penalty to the save, absolutely devastating, while confusion will still pump out a vary nice-a -4 penalty ( with an enchanter) and the thing to remember about most evocation spells: a lot of them ( if not most) will hurt party members from radial/are of effect damage, while enchantment spells can thrown in all silly nilly like with no damage to your team mates

necromancer: this actually might be a wonderfully useful specialization kit for legacy of lol mode, since enemies on that difficulty have outrageous HP, killing them instantly is much more efficient, and a necromancer has 3 absolutely mind boggingly killer spells, although it might take a little time to get there, you will appreciate it all a little bit more. The first being finger of death, just by itself this spell is awesome, first the victim must save vs spell ( lol, not save vs death, save vs spell, which is good anyways because enemies save vs spell is always worse) at a -2 penalty or die, so if you're a necromancer that beautiful penalty will be -4, and since its a save vs spell, expect to see your enemies did often, next; abi-dalzim's horrid wilting, ah the wonder spell, the spell that at level 20 deals an outrageous 20d8 damage (20-160) which is already an awesome amount of damage, but do you know what makes it better? being a necromancer and giving your enemy chums a -2 penalty to their save, so you can count on have that spell hit hard, and even better yet, the spell does not hurt team mates so fling in the wilting into the fray of battle and watch your enemies melt, and then lastly, another wonder spell: wail of the banshee, especially if playing legacy of lol mode, this spell can be an absolute life saver, now granted I don't know if the enemies save vs death or spell ( im going to assume its save vs spell) this is basically a radius finger of death, because when it comes to combat, realistically the goal is to vanquish your enemies as soon as possible, and when the baddies are having a penalty to their save or die instantly that's not looking good on the enemy's side of things, and and also skull trap will make enemies save at a -2 penalty as well, and in retrospect I think skull trap is a little better than fireball since it deals magical damage instead of fire damage ( which a lot of enemies more or less of resistance to) but there are a couple of disadvantages about the dreaded necromancer and that is its opposing school: illusion, unfortunately the illusion schools has some amazing spells available to them, now granted I only ever use 2 of them in my play throughs but this still has to be considered all the same, the main good ones that you will be missing out on are mirror image ( which is a wonderful defensive spell of coarse) and mass invisibility ( which is probably one of THE BEST defensive/buffing spells in the game) but on the flip side, if you are fighting enemies who are just pumping out true seeings front, left, right and centre, then illusion spells are useless anyway

so long story short, if you want to get the best bang for your buck on a wizard specialization and if killing baddies in an efficient manner is the thing you are looking for, I would say either go for enchantment, or necromancy

lunar

Umm, @semiticgod won't delayed blast fireball and finger of death become more powerful for invokers and necros, respectively? Also, what about Bigby spells?

Are some spells coded differently so they receive the save penalty effect when cast from a kit, or does just the school of the spell determine if the kit give bonus to it? If I change a spells school to something else, will the new school specialist benefit from it immediately?

At the very least, symbol spells should be abjuration so abjurers at least have something to impose their save penalties. It works as a ward so it makes perfect sense, too. Diviners will still be weak, though. Hey, at least know alignment spell works for them since it also allows a save?

Still, abjurers are the worst to play. A mage specialised in protective magics but can not protect himself well. No stoneskin means dead mage, fast. You can not hope to have pro from magic weapons active all the time, stoneskin is mandatory and essential to a mage. 1d4 hit dice just is not enough to survive heavy hits like backstabs or criticals without a stoneskin. Diviners will also lack bonuses from a familiar, so will be weaker in hp, that is a significant thing, especially when enemis employ power word stun and kill spells.

semiticgoddess

@lunar: Delayed Blast Fireball and Finger of Death also benefit from saving throw penalties; I just forgot to mention them. Same for Bigby spells.

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Dee

subtledoctor said:

@semiticgod or @Dee

Does anyone know exactly how the save penalty works? If I change Fireball to be in the Necromancy school (by editing, I think, bit 0x0025 of the .spl file) do the effects automatically switch along with my change?

As far as I know, the penalty is hard-coded, meaning that if you change a spell's school, yes, the penalty will be affected automatically.

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ThacoBell

I read this thread title as "Socialist mage question" the first time I saw it.

Lord_Tansheron

We are not divided into schools, we are an anarcho-syndicalist commune where everyone gets a turn at every spell, eventually. It's just that the pressing needs of the moment force some to be more engaged in battling the evil forces of divinity spheres and their morally corrupting ideology. DEITIES ARE THE OPIUM OF THE MASSES! YOUR PATRON GOD IS DEAD! VIVA LA GREATER RESTORATION!

JumboWheat01

thedamages said:

I read this thread title as "Socialist mage question" the first time I saw it.

In Soviet Faerun, magic casts you!

sarevok57

lunar said:

Umm, @semiticgod won't delayed blast fireball and finger of death become more powerful for invokers and necros, respectively? Also, what about Bigby spells?

Are some spells coded differently so they receive the save penalty effect when cast from a kit, or does just the school of the spell determine if the kit give bonus to it? If I change a spells school to something else, will the new school specialist benefit from it immediately?

At the very least, symbol spells should be abjuration so abjurers at least have something to impose their save penalties. It works as a ward so it makes perfect sense, too. Diviners will still be weak, though. Hey, at least know alignment spell works for them since it also allows a save?

Still, abjurers are the worst to play. A mage specialised in protective magics but can not protect himself well. No stoneskin means dead mage, fast. You can not hope to have pro from magic weapons active all the time, stoneskin is mandatory and essential to a mage. 1d4 hit dice just is not enough to survive heavy hits like backstabs or criticals without a stoneskin. Diviners will also lack bonuses from a familiar, so will be weaker in hp, that is a significant thing, especially when enemis employ power word stun and kill spells.

stoneskin is alteration, not abjuration, giving abjurers even less credibility

DJKajuru

I have created an abjurer once. It's true that he couldn't cast stoneskin, but I did make good use of invisibility spells to avoid being the first target. Other than that he seemed to survive pretty well.

lunar

In scs environment, with lots of backstabbers and archers/meleers prioritising unprotected casters first, an abjurer will have a very short life expectancy. A transmuter is better, stoneskin is the best, neccesarry dispel/breachs can be subbed by another caster or wand of spell strike, also extra strong disintegrate ftw!