is there any mod which allows increased max stats available more than 25?

delfosisyu

I recently started using EE keeper and I realized that stat number which users can modify playable and non-playable characters is limited to 25 maximum. And then I found some epic monsters in D&D trpg issues having stats like strength more than 30. I just wonder if I can get a way to give such amount of stats to certain monsters with editors. Is there any mod allowing extended maximum stat range?

deltago

What edition version are those monsters?

2nd edition (iirc) always had an ability cap of 25. Storm Giants had a strength of 24. (hence the potion).

3rd edition lifted the ability cap. Storm Giants had a Strength of 39 for example.

5 edition replaced a hard cap to 30. Storm Giants have a 29 strength here.

delfosisyu

deltago said:

What edition version are those monsters?

2nd edition (iirc) always had an ability cap of 25. Storm Giants had a strength of 24. (hence the potion).

3rd edition lifted the ability cap. Storm Giants had a Strength of 39 for example.

5 edition replaced a hard cap to 30. Storm Giants have a 29 strength here.

Must be 3rd then. A friend of mine showed me a slight peek.

The_Cheeseman

Yeah, BG series is based on AD&D 2nd Edition, where there were no stats higher than 25. There wouldn't be much point, anyway, as I can think of no non-cheaty way to get stats that high.

matrice

The_Cheeseman said:

Yeah, BG series is based on AD&D 2nd Edition, where there were no stats higher than 25. There wouldn't be much point, anyway, as I can think of no non-cheaty way to get stats that high.

technically, you can get up to 26 wisdoms (assuming no cap):
18 at creation
+3 from toms in bg1
+1 from tears (hell trials)
+1 from lum's
+1 from deck of many things
+1 from silver ioun stone
+1 from axe of hrthogar (or something like that, i don't remember the exact name -+3 axe if i recall correctly)

elminster

Clerics and druids can't use that axe though. So its value would basically be limited to cleric/thieves with UAI.

In any event the game doesn't have any values programmed in for 26.

DJKajuru

I tried Near infinity to see if attributes could be increased beyond 25 , and although it is possible to alter the 2da files and give your character a 26 stat through eekeeper , the game simply ignores it and shows a 25 on the character's record screen.

Fardragon

Yes. There simply are no stats over 25 in 2nd (and 1st) edition. The effects are undefined, and, as they are non-linear, impossible to calculate.

sarevok57

I hope there is a way, I altered all of my IWD files to allow stats to go up to 30, but it seems that the game is hardcoded to only allow 25, what a shame

Fardragon

Er, why? 25 is god-level in 2nd edtion. You really think it makes strength for you character to be stronger/smarter than any god?

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Zilber

2nd was limited to 25, nothing surpassed it. Pasting 3rd directly into 2nd is quite painful. Best tear off the band aid and move to 5th directly (though 4th seems to be written for video games).

elminster

Its also worth noting that the game is extremely generous when it comes to ability boosting. For instance in PnP it takes a month for you to gain a point of strength from reading a Manual of Gainful Exercise (and only if you follow a specific exercise regime). Even then you would also not go from 18 strength to 19 strength - but rather you would go to 18/50. The other tomes are treated similarly. It also only allows a character to use one of any given type of tome (so no using 3 Tomes of Understanding on a character ).

batoor

elminster said:

Its also worth noting that the game is extremely generous when it comes to ability boosting. For instance in PnP it takes a month for you to gain a point of strength from reading a Manual of Gainful Exercise (and only if you follow a specific exercise regime). Even then you would also not go from 18 strength to 19 strength - but rather you would go to 18/50. The other tomes are treated similarly. It also only allows a character to use one of any given type of tome (so no using 3 Tomes of Understanding on a character ).

That seems interesting as well I guess. I can only imagine the headache people would get making that choice, if it was implemented.

sarevok57

subtledoctor said:

Actually 20 is god-level. 25 is the highest, strongest god-level. Most gods' avatars have stats in the 22-23 range.

I don't understand the desire to go to 30. For that matter, while you're at it, why not 35? 40?

Anyway, the short answer is, it is completely impossible, by hook or by crook, 25 is the max the engine can ever be made to work with.

actually this is not 100% true, way back in the vanilla days, a friend of a friend of mine, was actually able to make characters with more than 25 for their stats ( they strictly did it for cheating purposes and the lols) but I have absolutely no idea how he did it, and of coarse he had some bizarre results in the process, for example, his constitution was around 1000 , and since the 2da files don't support an ability score that high, I think the game just over lapped 25 CON 50 times, because he would heal a big chunk of health every round as if he was getting the 25 CON regen rate and also gaining his HP back by a specific number as if the game was over lapping it

but the thing is, he was a PC wiz, so it could be entirely possible that he knew how to break "hard coded" things to his desire, like some of the stuff that he would do with PC hardware and software was quite mind blowing, and he was only 13

so is it impossible to make stats go above 25 in an IE game? nay, does it require some sort of code sorcery to do it? yay

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sarevok57

subtledoctor said:

You *can* do it in the pre-EE version of the game engine... but above 25 the engine loops around. I think 27 became 1 STR but 26 became 0 = death. So most people who experimented with it (CLUAing extra copies of the Tome or other incremental increases) ended up dying.

Beamdog patched the engine to fix the looping bug, by simply making every value above 25 resolve to 25.

yes, that was the scenario for looping, but I remember in vanilla bg1, I had 25 WIS from cheating and then I read another tome of WIS thinking; ah, I wonder what would happen? and nothing happened, it just stayed at 25

I think the "looping" effect worked better when you could use items that hard set ability scores like the gauntlets of dexterity or the ring of human influence, but im not 100% sure, because I have never used the looping exploit ever, infact it wasn't until this forum that I heard about it

AstroBryGuy

subtledoctor said:

Actually 20 is god-level. 25 is the highest, strongest god-level. Most gods' avatars have stats in the 22-23 range.

I don't understand the desire to go to 30. For that matter, while you're at it, why not 35? 40?

Probably to cap ability bonuses at +10.

Fardragon

AstroBryGuy said:

subtledoctor said:

Actually 20 is god-level. 25 is the highest, strongest god-level. Most gods' avatars have stats in the 22-23 range.

I don't understand the desire to go to 30. For that matter, while you're at it, why not 35? 40?

Probably to cap ability bonuses at +10.

Doesn't work since 25 strength gives +14 damage.

There isn't a one to one relationship between 2nd edition stats and 3rd edition. 25 str in 1st or 2nd edition is equivelent to around 38 in later editions.

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Zilber

subtledoctor said:

Oh is that for the 3E thing where you get a bonus every two points? I always thought that was stupid - you can get a stat bonus, and your new stat will be clearly, visually, superior... but you will derive absolutely no benefit from that.

Better to have each stat provide bonuses in two areas, and stagger the bonuses so that every extra point gets you *something*

It trumps the 2nd edition where about 80% (7-14 is 81.48% on the base rule 3d6 rolls) do not matter at all by such a margin it's no longer funny.

But yeah, staggering, while it lengthens tables a bit, would be a lot better.

elminster

The difference between 7-14 though is much more pronounced in PnP then it is the games (particularly for strength, constitution intelligence, and wisdom). Mind you I'm not saying 2E is perfect in that regard either (dexterity doesn't change anything from 7 to 14 and the difference between the benefits for charisma at those levels is pretty marginal) but I think the games give that impression that stats between 7-14 do not matter more than the actual 2E rules provide.

Zilber

elminster said:

The difference between 7-14 though is much more pronounced in PnP then it is the games (particularly for strength, constitution intelligence, and wisdom). Mind you I'm not saying 2E is perfect in that regard either (dexterity doesn't change anything from 7 to 14 and the difference between the benefits for charisma at those levels is pretty marginal) but I think the games give that impression that stats between 7-14 do not matter more than the actual 2E rules provide.

The games do not show 2e in a very favourable light, but every time it is defended, it's everything but the rules that are defended. By the time 2nd edition came around, better systems were already developed, but the mass of worlds created kept it alive.
I'm pretty sure many d&d games would have improved from just using an "over the edge" type of ruleset (1d6 if you're bad at something, 2d6 normal, 3d6 hobby, 4d6 specialisation, 1 flaw, two hobbies, one specialisation).

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AstroBryGuy

Fardragon said:

AstroBryGuy said:

subtledoctor said:

Actually 20 is god-level. 25 is the highest, strongest god-level. Most gods' avatars have stats in the 22-23 range.

I don't understand the desire to go to 30. For that matter, while you're at it, why not 35? 40?

Probably to cap ability bonuses at +10.

Doesn't work since 25 strength gives +14 damage.

There isn't a one to one relationship between 2nd edition stats and 3rd edition. 25 str in 1st or 2nd edition is equivelent to around 38 in later editions.

5E reestablishes caps. 20 is the maximum you can raise a character's ability score to without divine or magical intervention. 30 is the hard limit for the game.

Zilber

subtledoctor said:

Zilber said:

It trumps the 2nd edition where about 80% (7-14 is 81.48% on the base rule 3d6 rolls) do not matter at all by such a margin it's no longer funny.

The irony is that, in these games, people tend to roll such high scores that the 2E tables work quite well. I often read people around here talking about rolling ~85 as a minimum, and hoping for 90+... well, with a roll of 84 split evemly, you have an average of 14. So starting bonuses at 15, for these games, makes a lot of sense!

Zilber said:

The games do not show 2e in a very favourable light, but every time it is defended...

Umm, what is often called "the best CRPG ever made" is based on 2E... I think that shows it in a pretty good light. And honestly, the worst parts of these games are when they tried to shoehorn 3E junk into them.

You are right, the 4d6, minimum 75 and limitless rerolls do work around some of the limits of 2e. The best thing about it though, is not having to do the looking up yourself.

I stated earlier that trying to force 3e into 2e is going to end up in pain, and stand by that notion. I also think that, apart from PST:EE, one should reconsider using 2e, and keep reconsidering until another choice is made.