I would still move the Hide History to the far right, it only appears when I've scrolled up so my mouse is on the scrollbar already - it's on the right - to go back to the current conversation, I can scroll all the way down manually or I can just go to the bottom and hit Hide History.
I then think you will be less likely to hit it accidentally as when picking options your mouse is on the left or in the middle, and if you do need to move to 'continue' or 'end conversation' the history button is much further to the right so you are less likely to hit it by mistake.
Apparently we use our mouse’s differently. I would be much more likely to click the wrong button if you moved the History button all the way to the right.
I'm not saying it's better, but it's there for illustrative purposes. I still maintain that if a person is reading left-to-right, you want the options and toggles to be on the left so the user's last action is in the bottom-right in relation to everything else. But now we have a comparison.
Maybe this will illustrate what I mean @Ravenslight
Looking at the right image first, this is the default screen, if I want to see the history I need to scroll up. So my mouse cursor is in the green box.
When you scroll up you are now in the first image... if I want to show the current conversation only it's short hop in the green box straight down to hide the history. Or I can manually scroll to the bottom. I'm not likely to hit the CONTINUE button as that's off to the left.
When it comes to picking options, my mouse is on the left to middle side of the screen, in the yellow box. So it's a short hop to hit the CONTINUE or END CONVERSATION when that appears. I'm not likely to hit the HIDE HISTORY button by mistake.
As it stands, I have a mousewheel and tend to use that.
However I think that the scrolling for this scrollbar will also need the fine definition that physically scrolling using the moving widget (I can't think what the thing that scrolls is called) and also I'm thinking of people with fat fingers using tablets or mobiles.
Swapping the buttons over in that instance (hide on the left, continue in the middle or right) is more likely to cause misclicking.
Your new visuals do help, but they also make me realize how this might actually work.
If presented with a conversation that has just popped up, as in your right hand image, @Mr2150, I would immediately grab the scroll bar and try to pull the conversation down into the middle of the box in order to better see it.
If I am understanding how this new way is going to work, then this means that all the combat stuff is going to pop in at that point. So then, I will have to make an extra effort to hit another button to get rid of it or grab the scroll bar again to readjust it some more.
This sounds less appealing all the time, when compared to ver. 1.3
@Ravenslight That's actually how it worked in v1.3. If it bugs you now, it should have bugged you then.
It's worth noting that the window would still be resized automatically to fit the contents; these mock-ups don't show that because they're sitting on top of a screenshot, but if the problem you're seeing is that the text itself feels like it's out of the way, that's something we can (and should) talk about.
What? When compared to v1.3 it works exactly the same. This just adds an extra hide history button you don't ever have to use, if you just scroll back down.
Your new visuals do help, but they also make me realize how this might actually work.
If presented with a conversation that has just popped up, as in your right hand image, @Mr2150, I would immediately grab the scroll bar and try to pull the conversation down into the middle of the box in order to better see it.
If I am understanding how this new way is going to work, then this means that all the combat stuff is going to pop in at that point. So then, I will have to make an extra effort to hit another button to get rid of it or grab the scroll bar again to readjust it some more.
This sounds less appealing all the time, when compared to ver. 1.3
Isn't that exactly how 1.3 works?
I just tested it - and it's exactly the same.
Here I've just spoken to Parda after killing Shank. If I scroll up you can see the combat log. The only addition is the HIDE HISTORY box which you never had in 1.3 you had to scroll up and down manually...
EDIT: Changed the alignment of the pictures so they are bigger.
Let's be careful not to be judgmental. If there's something that @Ravenslight doesn't like in the latest mock-up, and that thing is the same as it was in v1.3, then that's still useful information.
Can you identify what it is that bothers you about it? Bearing in mind that v1.3 had a scrollbar as well--although it occurs to me that I've been showing it in gold when the rest of the layout is grey. Let's fix that now:
Is that better?
I will reiterate that this discussion is about layout, not art. Ideally, the art will mesh the scrollbar, ornamenation, buttons, and text fields together in such a way that they all fit and don't distract from the content.
Well, it’s entirely possible that I’m not understanding what I’m seeing here then.
I just went into ver. 1.3, which is the one I am currently using, to try and figure it out. And I guess I will just have to say that if you are telling me that the scrolling is going to work exactly how it did in ver. 1.3, then I’m fine with it.
Well, it’s entirely possible that I’m not understanding what I’m seeing here then.
I just went into ver. 1.3, which is the one I am currently using, to try and figure it out. And I guess I will just have to say that if you are telling me that the scrolling is going to work exactly how it did in ver. 1.3, then I’m fine with it.
Yes, that's the idea; one scrolling window of text, with the added feature of a button that instantly brings you back to the current conversation (which is helpful if you get lost). It also frames the conversation with the portrait on the left, so that there's no floating indent when the speaker has no portrait.
Other than that, these mock designs are essentially the v1.3 interface with some small tweaks.
Apologies Raven - the whole topic is confusing, and I think it's good we try to make sure that we are all on the same page and understand what we all mean.
Does it help if you think of the HIDE HISTORY button as a 'show me the current conversation' button...
So... you can manually scroll up and down as much as you like, you can see the whole history of the current conversation, and then combat log and previous conversations (the further up you scroll - the more you see).
And to go back to the current conversation, you can do it manually as you would in 1.3, or you can save yourself some time by pressing one button, which is right underneath the scrollbar, and it quickly scrolls to the current conversation for you.
Yes @Mr2150. And if I will still be able to just control the information that I am seeing with the scroll bar, as in ver. 1.3, then that’s great. My only other concern would be how often that new button will be flashing, and how brightly.
That and if we must have the new button on the right, I hope that it is positioned as far away from the continue button as possible.
Yes @Mr2150. And if I will still be able to just control the information that I am seeing with the scroll bar, as in ver. 1.3, then that’s great. My only other concern would be how often that new button will be flashing, and how brightly.
That and if we must have the new button on the right, I hope that it is positioned as far away from the continue button as possible.
As of right now there's no flashing at all in this proposal.
Sorry if it sounds harsh, but what's the point of adding yet another useless button ? If you don't want to see the conversation history, you don't scroll up.
The purpose is to let the player quickly return to the current conversation after reviewing the backlog; it saves you the time spent scrolling all the way down to the bottom.
The dialog window in pre-2.0 and the original games allowed me to quickly jump to the current conversation state by clicking on the portrait (or placeholder if there is no portrait). There is no real need for an additional button. I would expect players to read the manual or be already experienced with the game controls if they want to use advanced features such as browsing through the conversation history.
There's one key difference between the latest mock design and v1.3:
The speaker's portrait is now outside of the box where the text resides, fixing a readability issue where the text is inexplicably indented when the speaker has no portrait
There's a few differences between that design and v2.0:
The speaker's portrait is now outside of the box where the text resides
There's one scrollbar that controls the display for the entire conversation window, including responses, current conversation, and scrollback
There are no dividers between the current conversation and the scrollback
It's worth noting that at the top of this thread, there was only one issue that was being requested for fixing. The shifting of the portrait to an outside frame was something that was added based on subsequent comments, and the disappearance of the divider was based on @Ravenslight's reaction to it.
If anyone disagrees with those changes, or would like to see them handled differently, or has something else that they'd like to see changed, post here and I'll take a look.
One thing that's not addressed at the moment: the speaker's name display. In these mock-ups, I've been assuming that the speaker's name is on the same line as the first line of text. At larger font sizes, though, that could potentially pose a problem. I'll drop this last comparison shot to show what the mock design would look like with v2.0's style:
To head this off at the pass: I personally prefer having the speaker's name on a separate line (as it is in v2.3), but I recall a number of people saying that they didn't like it and preferred the way it was in v1.3 and earlier versions. I haven't seen significant feedback that the new way is preferred, but again that's a dangerous assumption to make, especially now that v2.x has been out for several months and people may have gotten used to it.
To head this off at the pass: I personally prefer having the speaker's name on a separate line (as it is in v2.3), but I recall a number of people saying that they didn't like it and preferred the way it was in v1.3 and earlier versions.
Afair, the main issue was that name and following text were insufficiently separated. I proposed to solve (or relax) the issue by adding a colon or similar separator to the speaker name, as you've done in your mockup screenshot.
Comments
That's what I said. Isn't it? I'm pretty sure that's what I said. *quickly edits post*
Shrinking the Hide History button helps a lot for visuals.
Okay, so moving the Hide History button over to the right…
Sigh…..
Looking at the right image first, this is the default screen, if I want to see the history I need to scroll up. So my mouse cursor is in the green box.
When you scroll up you are now in the first image... if I want to show the current conversation only it's short hop in the green box straight down to hide the history. Or I can manually scroll to the bottom. I'm not likely to hit the CONTINUE button as that's off to the left.
When it comes to picking options, my mouse is on the left to middle side of the screen, in the yellow box. So it's a short hop to hit the CONTINUE or END CONVERSATION when that appears. I'm not likely to hit the HIDE HISTORY button by mistake.
However I think that the scrolling for this scrollbar will also need the fine definition that physically scrolling using the moving widget (I can't think what the thing that scrolls is called) and also I'm thinking of people with fat fingers using tablets or mobiles.
Swapping the buttons over in that instance (hide on the left, continue in the middle or right) is more likely to cause misclicking.
If presented with a conversation that has just popped up, as in your right hand image, @Mr2150, I would immediately grab the scroll bar and try to pull the conversation down into the middle of the box in order to better see it.
If I am understanding how this new way is going to work, then this means that all the combat stuff is going to pop in at that point. So then, I will have to make an extra effort to hit another button to get rid of it or grab the scroll bar again to readjust it some more.
This sounds less appealing all the time, when compared to ver. 1.3
It's worth noting that the window would still be resized automatically to fit the contents; these mock-ups don't show that because they're sitting on top of a screenshot, but if the problem you're seeing is that the text itself feels like it's out of the way, that's something we can (and should) talk about.
I just tested it - and it's exactly the same.
Here I've just spoken to Parda after killing Shank. If I scroll up you can see the combat log. The only addition is the HIDE HISTORY box which you never had in 1.3 you had to scroll up and down manually...
EDIT: Changed the alignment of the pictures so they are bigger.
Can you identify what it is that bothers you about it? Bearing in mind that v1.3 had a scrollbar as well--although it occurs to me that I've been showing it in gold when the rest of the layout is grey. Let's fix that now:
Is that better?
I will reiterate that this discussion is about layout, not art. Ideally, the art will mesh the scrollbar, ornamenation, buttons, and text fields together in such a way that they all fit and don't distract from the content.
I just went into ver. 1.3, which is the one I am currently using, to try and figure it out. And I guess I will just have to say that if you are telling me that the scrolling is going to work exactly how it did in ver. 1.3, then I’m fine with it.
Other than that, these mock designs are essentially the v1.3 interface with some small tweaks.
So... you can manually scroll up and down as much as you like, you can see the whole history of the current conversation, and then combat log and previous conversations (the further up you scroll - the more you see).
And to go back to the current conversation, you can do it manually as you would in 1.3, or you can save yourself some time by pressing one button, which is right underneath the scrollbar, and it quickly scrolls to the current conversation for you.
That and if we must have the new button on the right, I hope that it is positioned as far away from the continue button as possible.
As of right now there's no flashing at all in this proposal.
I’m sold.
- The speaker's portrait is now outside of the box where the text resides, fixing a readability issue where the text is inexplicably indented when the speaker has no portrait
There's a few differences between that design and v2.0:- The speaker's portrait is now outside of the box where the text resides
- There's one scrollbar that controls the display for the entire conversation window, including responses, current conversation, and scrollback
- There are no dividers between the current conversation and the scrollback
It's worth noting that at the top of this thread, there was only one issue that was being requested for fixing. The shifting of the portrait to an outside frame was something that was added based on subsequent comments, and the disappearance of the divider was based on @Ravenslight's reaction to it.If anyone disagrees with those changes, or would like to see them handled differently, or has something else that they'd like to see changed, post here and I'll take a look.
One thing that's not addressed at the moment: the speaker's name display. In these mock-ups, I've been assuming that the speaker's name is on the same line as the first line of text. At larger font sizes, though, that could potentially pose a problem. I'll drop this last comparison shot to show what the mock design would look like with v2.0's style:
To head this off at the pass: I personally prefer having the speaker's name on a separate line (as it is in v2.3), but I recall a number of people saying that they didn't like it and preferred the way it was in v1.3 and earlier versions. I haven't seen significant feedback that the new way is preferred, but again that's a dangerous assumption to make, especially now that v2.x has been out for several months and people may have gotten used to it.