The Problem With BG2
Raduziel
Member Posts: 4,714
We all love the Baldur's Gate Saga. It's full of adventure and the characters are well developed and etc.
But, among my real-life-friends, I see that people like BG more than BG2.
Ok, BG2 is an awesome game. We all know it. But BGEE is, IMHO opinion, better.
And I was wondering myself: why?
Well, the reason I prefer BG is because BG2 have tons of damn time-triggered quests. My actual save have 108 days and I've just arrived in Brynnlaw. Tons and tons of rests so I can get the quests from the NPCs.
I've had to wait eighteen days for Jan's quest, for example.
Everytime I finish BG I want to start a new game in BG. When I finish BG2 my feeling is "finally!"
Specially now with SoD when you have some big challenges in BG.
Well, but I would like to ask you, fellow adventurer: is there something you don't like in BG2? If there is what is it?
But, among my real-life-friends, I see that people like BG more than BG2.
Ok, BG2 is an awesome game. We all know it. But BGEE is, IMHO opinion, better.
And I was wondering myself: why?
Well, the reason I prefer BG is because BG2 have tons of damn time-triggered quests. My actual save have 108 days and I've just arrived in Brynnlaw. Tons and tons of rests so I can get the quests from the NPCs.
I've had to wait eighteen days for Jan's quest, for example.
Everytime I finish BG I want to start a new game in BG. When I finish BG2 my feeling is "finally!"
Specially now with SoD when you have some big challenges in BG.
Well, but I would like to ask you, fellow adventurer: is there something you don't like in BG2? If there is what is it?
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Comments
I like BG2 more to be honest, when I do BG1 to bring a character up I took a lot of shortcuts. Maybe with SoD that will change more next time through.
I think that they could have made the players level up more slowly, and the final battles should have been more difficult.
But I won't lie to you, I think that beamdog , in spite of being an amazing gaming company, hasn't reached the level of darkness and realness that most SoA characters possess, they're on their way , though
I, on the other hand, find BG to be a total slog- constant reloads due to character death, NPCs without dialogue unless you install mods, and wander all over creation to find some random minor villainous character that you didn't even know was there, but hey, you need the XP and items. BG2 feels much tighter to me in that regard- you mostly go places because someone told you to go there and you discover that something is wrong and fix it.
Jaheira and Minsc have REAL reasons to stay with you all the way to Irenicu's fall. They've losted beloved ones.
Yoshimo also has a good reason to stick with you. And I don't need to say much about Imoen.
I take every and all NPCs to do their quests, but no one can convince me that, for example, Haer'Dalis will go to the gates of Hell for your quest.
Sarevok is a global menace. Irenicus is a local one. Even the Shadow Thieves didn't make haste to confront him because they didn't know the danger he was for them.
Also, by the existence of an sequence, that's always compels us to construct out future sequel plays, by choosing which character will be in party, so we roleplay getting them in SoD and BG2, what items to import and etc...
BG2 really is huge, sometimes side quests appears as truly main quests, and when we finish it we end with the feeling of "mission acomplished", more or less like that.
but then some years passed, and my love started to switch over to bg2 more than bg1, bg2 stopped lagging because of the beast of a machine we had, I started learning the mechanics more, and I really started to appreciate the polish that was put into bg2
but at this point in time, I don't play my beloved bg series anymore, I've played both games so many times, that I have finally drained all of their beautiful out of them, and I cant even get out of candlekeep anymore before getting bored ( and I cant play bg2 without importing a bg1 character, my OCD says nope)
but I've been giving nwn2 some more love these days, especially SoZ, now if only I could learn how to use this silly toolset I would be set...
The replayability of NWN2 OC was near 0, after 2 plays i didn't had more patience for it.
A thing i always thought of was, NWN2 loose a huge opportunity of make that game an MMORPG, few to no changes were really need to achieve that, thus the existence of the unnoficial NWN2 MMORPG that exist.
I find this very strange - and totally untrue. I have never, ever had to do this, and I've always done pretty much all the quests there are in the game (with/for the NPCs I happen to have on that playthrough). The only time you have to do excessive resting is when you free Jaheira of the curse.
As for which game is better, there's just no competition. Frankly, BG is rubbish. The quests are so simplistic, there are hardly ever any reasonable dialogue options, there are no banters, the story is all over the place, there is an awful lot of walking around, and so on. BG2, on the other hand, is the best computer game so far.
Be my guess and see how many days you need to start and complete Jan's quest (15-18 days to start). Or Dorn's. Or the Fighter's Stronghold (47 days!). Or Jaheira's romance. Or Wizard's Stronghold. Or Mazzy's quest. Or Anomen's quest. Or...
Now do the math. You need 3 rests do skip a day. Well, you get it.
You don't need to take my word:
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/Walkthrough2/SoA/chapter-2/quests/quest-list.php
Just be careful before calling someone a liar. It's impolite to say the least.
Every single quest in the game will come to you during the course of the game without you having to spend any excess time resting resting resting. The only time you need to take consecutive rests is when Jaheira recovers of her curse. (And even then you don't have to, but it's sensible to do so.)
(The last time I finished SoA in 66 days, which I only happen to remember because it was also hour 6. And I did everything my group was able to do, i.e. all the NPC quests and the rest. Never once did I have to spend any time just resting for quests to begin.)
About the topic:
But I'm talking about a completionist run. Taking all the NPCs - not just the six for your party - and doing their quests.
I've finished everything I had to do in Athkatla and the surroundings and still needed to rest a lot to finish (or start) some quests. Maybe I didn't an optimal approach on the matter (I could take, for example, Mazzy, Anomen and Jan at the same time), but it doesn't change the fact that the time-trigger is a pain that makes the game become longer and not bigger.
I ain't saying that this is a universal truth, it's just my POV. Some people don't bother, some people don't want to do all the quests, some people have the luck of being able to build time-trigger-oriented-parties. It's not my case.
Peace, mate.
I think part of the charm of the first game is how much of it is spent exploring wilderness areas and how built up the special dungeon like areas are. Bg2 doesn't really have too much of that and is much more grand in scope. It's partially because of the party power level too lol. Some people really enjoy low level D&D while others tend to prefer to start after the "could be killed by a common house cat" stage has ended lol.
These days, though, I prefer to focus on difficult battles BG2 offers. Battles that last many rounds, that involve buffs and prebuffs and that force me to find new tactics. I play with SCS, full install, and BG2 battles in the Underdark and ToB are the most awesome battles I've ever experienced in computer games. This is something BG1 can't offer (and this comes from a big fan of BG1 because of its atmosphere and PnP feel when I explore the Sword Coast with lvl 1-2 parties fearing each next bear or an ogre).
I like the progression of the main quest much better in BG2 as you have access to the main city at the start of the game, while in BG1 has you go through 2 rather large dungeons before you actually get to walk into Baldurs gate. That's where the sweet spot of the first game starts for me and I feel a sense of relief of having put the Nashkel mines, cloakwood forest and the cloakwood mines behind me.
The wilderness crawl is indeed a nice touch, but BG2 had a higher budget and much more ''kewl'' stuff.
I will say though.. having done the warrior stronghold so many times now...De'Arnise Keep isn't something I particularly enjoy doing anymore..to put it mildly.
On topic, if I were to choose between BG1 and BG2, I'd choose IWD
They were all off the beaten track and peripheral to your main objective, but it made the world feel massive, full of unknown possibilities.
BG2 by contrast, most of the areas on the map were marked and you had a sense of why you'd click on them when exploring (e.g. you knew why you were going to Imnesvale or Trademeet). An easy thing to overlook, quite subtle really, but the sense of wonder in exploring was slightly diminished.
Of course, you were free to wander around Amn and the city was more or less your open world, but BG1 had that AND wilderness areas.
BG2's NPC interactions are what make the second game shine to me.
Your character is now becoming a force to be reckoned with so the scale of exploration is suitably ramped up, having you face off against drow, demons, dragons etc... To that end I can forgive it seeming a little more linear in the later phases. I saw the format befitting the narrative - your literal destiny to become powerful and have enemies of increasing power become aware of you, to covet what you are and possess.
Then again, BG2 only feels more linear because the map areas are out of bounds whilst you're off saving Imoen or crawling around the underdark - you could always do the map areas later of course, but only once you'd escaped.
BG1 by contrast, you were more or less free to wander the wilderness at your own leisure, whilst doing the main plot too.
@God I too love the art style of IWD. I think it's the best looking/fitting of all the Infinity engine games.
This cannot really happen in BG2. There are only a select few fights (Guarded compound or the war party in the sewer) that really can take you by surprise. Most other fights you are high level enough or can talk your way out of them fairly easily.
Besides, in BG1, you really have the feeling your character progresses every passing day. The fact that you are not overflowed with super powerful magic items makes the progression sweeter IMHO. In BG2, you'll hardly feel any difference with a level-up, except with spell-casting classes, when you unlock a new spell level.
I'd also add that along with that ton of free exploration in maps that sometimes don't even have a quest is great because these maps sometimes have secrets, like, say, the stat tomes. It took me a loooooong time to find every single one of them without googling it. Oh and Durlag's tower feels much better than WK, but that's a personal opinion
BG2 has a ton of quests, but you always know what you have to do. BG1 had fewer quests but when you were bored you could simply explore the wilderness, and that's something BG2 really lacks.
Elminsterenemies and must defend yourself' because you have been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself...1. BG2 became the more influencial game, and future titles ended up being more like bg2. Thus BG1 becomes an almost unique experience
2. 2nd ed DnD works best between levels approx 5-15.
Because of relatively fast levelling at lower levels in bg1, and quest xp in bg2, you spend more time in this range in bg1 than you do in bg2
Don't get me wrong. Both parts of the Bhaalspawn saga are fantastic and BG1 is an enjoyable journey in its own right. But after having made it to Baldur's Gate 2 for the first time, I was immediately taken aback by just how much more enjoyable it was (barring Chateau Irenicus, which is significantly less enjoyable after the first 2 or 3 restarts). Nowadays, I tend to view BG1 as a chore (albeit a fun one) that I have to complete in order to take a "legitimate" character into BG2. If I decide to take a character through the entire saga (rather than use EEKeeper to create a character that would resemble one that played through the first game), I start getting antsy right around the time we reach the Cloakwood mines. By the time we get through the Durlag quests and face Sarevok, I'm practically begging for the game to be finished so the fun can REALLY begin.
I attribute these feelings to two main improvements Baldur's Gate 2 has over the original. The first is that from a mechanical standpoint, BG2 is when tactical combat really becomes a staple of the series. Sure, you could buff up before a fight in BG1. But other than that, combat was very "might makes right". Can you overwhelm your enemy before they overwhelm you? You rarely had encounters with enemies that had things like spell or combat protections in the first game and even when you did, most of the tools to deal with such challenges aren't readily available in BG1. So if an enemy had GoMI active, you just wailed on him with your weapons before he managed to get off a spell. In BG2, nearly every mage you come across has both spell AND combat protections, so the "just rush him with your melee characters" strategy no longer works. Now it becomes a game of give and take. Do you hit the mage with a Breach in the hope that your heavy can hit and interrupt him before he gets off that Chaos spell he's been charging? Or do you go for a Pierce Magic to remove his spell protections and follow up with a Magic Missile from your Bard or secondary spellcaster to interrupt his spell, understanding that your front-line will be nothing short of useless until you use Breach next round? This type of gameplay is infinitely more interesting to me.
Even more important than the level of gameplay however, is the depth of the characters in BG2 compared to the characters in its predecessor. There was some personality there of course and you even grew attached to certain characters (the strong-willed Jaheira, the skittish but gentle Khalid, the sassy confidence of Dynaheir... And who doesn't love your wacky, hamster whispering uncle, Minsc?) But aside from the main tropes they used for the characters and the occasional banter (many of which were warning shots that your team members were going to throw down unless you changed your team comp quickly), you couldn't really connect on a deep level with many of the NPCs you brought with you. SoD addresses this somewhat, but it's too short to really do them justice. Compare this to BG2, where every single character has depth and development to them, even the seemingly one-note NPCs like Korgan and Minsc. This is where the sequel really shines and cements itself as being superior to the first game, at least in my mind. All that said, there are two things in BG2 that I feel were done better in the first game. The first is the sense of exploration. BG2 is admittedly much more restrictive in your exploration of the world. Often times you can't even go to certain places on the map without having some sort of quest that requires you to go there. In BG1, the entire world (apart from Candlekeep, Cloakwood and Baldur's Gate) was open to you from the moment you started Chapter 1 and there were so many areas to explore, you likely couldn't make it through all of them in a single playthrough. Granted, many of the locations were wilderness maps that were largely irrelevant to both the main story and the sidequests. But they were there and that gave the world a sense of scope that the sequel just couldn't capture.
The second thing I dislike is the amount of quests that are forced on you in the second game. I get it. Most of said quests are related to a stronghold and the developers wanted to make sure that you didn't miss them. But Oghma's mercy! Do I HAVE to be dragged into some religious squabble EVERY time I want to enter the sewers and save Haer'Dalis? (I just want my playhouse, dammit!
But you don't have to do it every time, even if is forced to you the first not spoiled run of your life.
And as it was the fist time the fact that you are forced into it is fine, also in RL sometimes happens, and you can also say "no thanks, find some other adventurer to help you, I have my friend Imoen to rescue and other things to do", thing that RP wise is very logical.
But the way to avoid to be forced into it is very easy, in the area there is an awesome temple of the goddess of light, as you pass is very logical to step in and have a look, then you discover that there is also an exit in the south wall. That is the easy way to avoid the triggering of the religious squabble quest.
And on the way back you have other 2 roads to exit the area.
Easily solved with the mods already mentioned.
But I see it in a different way, in bg2 you have something like 13 NPCs, plus the EE ones, that was not present when the game was created, most of them with their own quests, their own lives, and you need only 5 of them to fill the party. You help them dealing with their own problems and they will help you with your bigger one. There is no reason, other than be completionist or a powergamer that want to grind every possible XP to have them all in the party, maybe you can change 2 or 3 party members because you are not found with some of the ones you have, maybe you want to drop your thief because you meet an other one that has all a thief must have, but is also a mage. Or maybe you are not so happy with your cleric because he is too arrogant or whiny, and you meet a mysterious and beautiful drow one.
look at it with the eyes of a new, not spoiled player, they are options, you need a cleric and you can choose between 3 of them. In a framework that is really free, at the beginning your goal is to collect a lot of money, and to find some helpers that will become comrades, and you can chose in which order you will deal with the quests.
This way a new player can experience some runs where the main quest is the same, but new NPCs are used and new content is discovered, you don't have to eat all the cake in one time.
their quests are timed for that way to play, and are perfect for that, if they where timed for a completionist they would end too soon for a "regolar" new player. And which ones are the longer ones? Jaheira, that you have from the beginning and maybe also in the previous game, and some related to your class stronghold, and Gaelan, the only one you are really forced to meet, give you suggestions to start them early. You are a mage, well, go there, you are a fighter, than go to the CC when Nalia actively ask your help stressing on how much urgent is to go very quickly to rescue her castle and father.
the game was created before the boards and online walk troughs, no one would ever think that after more than 15 years from its creations there would be so many people still playing it, people with so many runs.
You completionists and we XP grinders are using something that was designed for other people, people like we or you was when we did the first 5-10 runs, somehow we are misusing the game, but the reason why we misuse it is that is a so GOOD game that even if it was not designed for us is so satisfying also for us.
Many, many things. How is so strategically and tactically complex for such an old engine, how it can be played in so many ways and styles, how can be modded to suit our tastes (THANKS MODDERS !!!), how it can be immersive, I still remember the first time I saw the sun again after the initial dungeon and how much good cheese can be found in it, after maybe some hundred thousand topics on many boards there is still someone that discover a new tactic or a new combination of spells.
What I don't like?
The fact that bg1 was perfect for a DnD game, then come the expansion, the sequel and the expansion of the sequel, but to keep the xp growing the original spirit of DnD was lost, with mortals reaching levels that should be reserved to gods. What really hurts me is the proliferation of super weapons in ToB, where each one and his brother has weapons that in BG1 don't even exist and in SoA are extremely rare and every fighter or mage you meet has a level that would make trivial for him to solo BG1 and maybe SoA. I am not talking of the bosses, every crap mage or fighter has that level and that weapons.
And also the way you level up, in about half year charname from the very inexperienced person that he was in Candlekeep becomes the incredible one at the end of ToB. Like someone who begins to learn how to play a piano and after 2 or 3 months of studying becomes the best piano player in the world. And don't tell me that is because Charname is the son of a god, the NPCs are not so, but they grow at the same rate.
The growth rate is somehow believable in BG1, but in SoA start to go faster and in ToB has no sense at all.
I don't like it, but I love it, because it give all the complexity needed.
In BG1 a fighter wins mostly if he is strong, if he is not so he can do very little about it, the bear or bandit will kill him, same for the mage, he has few spells memorized, if the enemy fails the save against the sleep the battle is won, other way the caster is screwed. Is a more a point, click and hope game.
In Bg2, and even more in a modded bg2, almost each class has a chance also against enemies much more powerful, a solo Charname can beat enemies so much powerful then himself, without using cheats and easy exploits because the more levels open to more options and choices. For me the most enjoyable part is chapter 2 of SoA, in ToB it becomes more a thing of super equipment for the fighters and spamming ADHW for mages, a game of buffing and debuffing, even if is not the only way to play it, my solo sorc used very few ADHW and dragon breaths.
Whel, not completely true, he killed everyone in the last level of the D'arnise Keep with ADHW, without even leaving the first room, but he did not cast a single one of them. having Tactics Mod Tor Gal, the last survivor falling dead just 3 or 4 feets from him was really funny, I really Wish that you where there to see it...
BG2 gets off to a great start, but suffers after the underdark... then completely nosedives in the last act wherein we learn that the mysterious and dangerous Irenicus is just some Elf Queen's butthurt ex-boyfriend. On top of that, the whole elven secrecy takes away much; rather than creating a build up to the final revelations, the lack of forthrightness leaves the history and justification behind Irenicus' punishment severely lacking in impact. I never felt the player got enough information about all that. It's wrapped up very quickly right at the end.
Then you go to hell... for whatever reason. This mechanic is not adequately explained in the game. Just a lot of new-agey 'you are linked together' soul-talk and whatnot.
There's nothing that will touch my party by now. Pretty much everyone is able to regenerate and yesterday Minsc cleared the Beholder's Lair in Underdark and Bodhi's Lair all by himself (using Cloak of Mirroring for the first and dual wielding Azuredge and Mace of Disruption for the latter)
I know what many will say: just don't use those items.
Well, the problem is: those items are from the vanilla game. It's nothing I've added with mods to break the game. SoA-ToB itself lacks balance.
Battling Irenicus in Spellhold should be at least as hard as battling Sarevok in the Duchal Palace. When I overwhelmed him like a gibberling that I saw that something was very wrong in SoA.
There's no such a thing as "a hard boss fight" in SoA. I particularly can't remember even one.
Only twice in all SoA I've break a sweat to win a fight: The Eyeless Cult and the Slavers in the Slums. And nowadays the only enemies that gives me trouble are illithids. Why? Because of items. And even for the Cult, with a right amount of money I could by the Shield of Balduran and turn that quest in a strolling in the park.
And at the very end of the Eyeless Cult, the game gives you a item that is quite literally a "I win" button.
In BG/ToSC/SoD I needed to use all the resources at hand AND the battle was still a challenge. To battle Karoug, Ajantis drinked a potion of heroism, potion of invulnerability, oil of speed, potion of fire giant strenght, potion of agility and potion of fortitude. And to even HIT the thing Imoen had to sneak past it, grab the Sword of Balduran, drink an invisibility potion and get back.
And you guys can say: you can always install SCS.
I know I can. But it's like saying "you can always change the Dungeon Master". And IMHO the "standard" DM of SoA/ToB sucks.