Huge fun: Zal 'o' Darts: Assassin 11 >> Fighter Dual
I just played through BG ee and BG2 ee with a hugely fun : Zal'o'Darts.
He's an old acquaintance from BG1 that some may remember.
Assassin 11 >> Fighter.
Thief skills 100% Open Lock 100% find remove traps, the balance into traps.
4 x Assassin proficiencies: * Short Bow, * Long Sword (to get through BG1), * 1 handed weapon style, * 2 handed weapon style
I used the 12 fighter levels with 8 proficiencies to get : ***** Dart *** spear.
I headed over to Watchers Keep as soon as I exited Irenicus's dungeon, cleared Level 1 to get the Crimson Dart (+3 returning dart), so he's set for dart ammunition for life.
Zal plays as a lower hit point range and reach fighter, who can also provide bare bones thief skills in a evil party. Poison weapon + 5 attacks per round (10 with Improved haste from Ring of Gaxx) slays dragons quite easily. He really is the fastest dart slinger in the West.
Not the most power-gamey build. But a ton of fun.
Has anyone got experiences to share from a mid level Assassin dual that ignores backstabbing?
He's an old acquaintance from BG1 that some may remember.
Assassin 11 >> Fighter.
Thief skills 100% Open Lock 100% find remove traps, the balance into traps.
4 x Assassin proficiencies: * Short Bow, * Long Sword (to get through BG1), * 1 handed weapon style, * 2 handed weapon style
I used the 12 fighter levels with 8 proficiencies to get : ***** Dart *** spear.
I headed over to Watchers Keep as soon as I exited Irenicus's dungeon, cleared Level 1 to get the Crimson Dart (+3 returning dart), so he's set for dart ammunition for life.
Zal plays as a lower hit point range and reach fighter, who can also provide bare bones thief skills in a evil party. Poison weapon + 5 attacks per round (10 with Improved haste from Ring of Gaxx) slays dragons quite easily. He really is the fastest dart slinger in the West.
Not the most power-gamey build. But a ton of fun.
Has anyone got experiences to share from a mid level Assassin dual that ignores backstabbing?
5
Comments
Instant kill on most targets with Harm+Poison Weapon
9APR with Energy Blades
Really an amusing playthrough
2. I picked up 2 handed weapon (not 2 weapon) style. Assassins can't get more than 1 * in a style, so the single hander style is a placeholder while still a single class assassin occasionally using a longsword.
3. The original Zal from south of Nashkel drops a spear as well as darts
The main point is the poison weapon + darts the rest is just 'omage to the Zal :-)
Imo to create a new OP kit and then to realize that is so OP that has to be toned down, and chose to do it toning down also a pre existing kit is not the good way to go.
Imo, if is not possible to create separate poison weapons, to remove the ability to Blackguard kit or to leave it way too Op would have been a better solution.
The Poison weapon ability has been changed during the 2.0 beta. You can read the discussion between players and developers on this subject in https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/48418/poison-weapon. There were changes in tweaking this ability in different beta builds.
You can find out reasons for the changes here and here.
The new version is still strong but not so amazingly strong as it was before the changes.
In terms of the build proposed in the OP (but with the 2.3 version), the 11th level of an assassin will provide the 3rd version of Poison Weapon (1 poison damage per 18 seconds, save vs Death negates, and immediate 4 poison damage). It's viable till ToB.
But of course, feedback is still welcome.
I disagree with one of the reasons @Dee give, and I post it here, as we are talking about assassin and PW, but maybe I will do it also there.
the reason was that EE changed the way in which poison, and regeneration, stack, that in original was not reliable. In my experience is only true when 2 different things giving the same effect at different rates was present. A ring of Gaax and a ring of regeneration did not stack, and now they do, is true. But 2 identical rings, no matter of which kind, did stack correctly and every time (in not EE 2 rings of Gaax are possible).
Also Gaxx and regeneration from the upgraded axe stacked everytime.
The same for stacking only potions of regeneration. The not EE behavior was that identical effects with identical rate did stack. And this is the case of PW, so the assumption that Bioware implemented the things in a wrong way, but never realized it during testing, seems to me not true. And is the main point given to justify the chance in EE2. exposed in the second here-link.
Late game an enemy will save often even with -2, and an assassin has less APR than a blackguard, so less chance that the enemy fails the save. So the damage can be as low as 0-6 damage, if the enemy saves. Late game you find also that few strong enemies are not immune to backstab, the 7x of the assassin has only a small window where is powerful, assuming a not solo run. And an assassin risk to disrupt only for 1 round.
The old implementation of PW was "When Poison Weapon is active each successful hit within the next 5 rounds will inject poison into the target, dealing an extra 2 points of damage per second with no Saving Throw (up to a maximum of 12 points of damage per hit). Moreover, if the target fails a Saving Throw vs. Poison, he/she will suffer 1 additional point of damage per round for 4 rounds."
Taken from wikia.
http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin
The save was affecting only 4 damage, 5 rounds of disrupting and consistent damage was granted, assuming a successful hit, stacking more hits in the same round did multiply it for the number of hits.
The last thing can be indeed powerful, but BG players had lived with it for a long time and the assassin was never considered over the top. It could be reduced, now for an assassin the new version is not still strong. fA late game Assassin find himself with a 7x backstab that is useful only on minor foe and less APR, even using darts, than a Blackguard, that gains other amazing abilities at high level.
I still think that different poison weapon, same as it is now for Blackguard, and similar to the original, but eventually reduced in DMG, for the assassin, would have been, o can be, a better change.
And the fact that is possible to dual an assassin to build a strong dual is true, but what about fighter then.
Are we going to nerf fighters because the kensage is possible?
Edit corrected a point that was not clear.
20th - Target suffers 1 poison damage per second for 30 seconds (Save vs Death at -4 negates), and also immediately suffers 8 poison damage (no save).
The solution is to create a second PW for the assassin, With a granted 5 round poisoning, if he hits, imo with the attacks in the round stacking, imo reduced from the original game but granted. possibly level dependant, scaling with levels to make it not op in bg1 and soa. And a added flat dmg with save.
This way the Blackguard is not touched, and the assassin's power is reduced from the previous version, but is still the highly trained killer that is supposed to be (and pay an huge price in useful ablilties for that, being a complete thief only very late).
.
A DoT with a save. This one needs to be punishing. Let's start at 2 damage per second for 2 rounds save vs death to negate, then increase duration, damage per second, put a malus on the save vs Death with level increase.
An epic assassin could have 3 per second, for 4round, with a save vs death at -4 without it being gamebreaking.
At later levels, level 11 for example, a DoT with no save. Say, 1 damage per sec for one round, increasing to 2 at later levels. That would disrupt mages, without making them useless till they die (which is what the old one would do). Thus, an assassin would have to hit them at least once per round to disrupt them, which is balanced given their low APRWhy not, an on-hit poison effect (2 at early levels, up to 6 for example).
And make it available for more than one hit per round per target, but refreshing the duration of the existing poisons rather than stacking them.
This would:
Make assassins viable again.
Make the dual Assassin=>Fighter alright but not OP with downsides compared to blackguard.
And a last nice addition would be poison HLAs. Much like IBS, but on poison weapon, with debilitating or control effects. What comes to mind:
A hold effect with a save
A stat lowering effect (Thac0/saving throws/...)
Extra damage
Level drain (with a save)
...
And with a damage over time that can be saved, better backstab only very late in soa and reduced utility compared to a pure class is not so.
The dual can be really powerful, but this is normal, a kensai->mage or berseker->mage is immensely more powerful than a single class, can reach lev9 spells only little later than a pure class mage, but can both tank and deal damage much better than every single class fighter, sarevok in comparison is nothing. With simulacrum he can double his APR, and has ways to bring his AC much lower than an armored fighter, while he use stoneskin, pfmw, mirror imges, and is protected against debuffs with spell immunity and spell trap.
A cleric of lathander11->mage reaches lev 7 clerical spells and lev 9 mage spells, and can attack mlee, with 6APR, maxed damage and str 25 for more than one turn twice a day. Or tell his simulacrum to do so, for more than 2 turns.
All those people can eat a blackguard at breakfast with no problem, they can not even be touched by him while they destroy him, without even casting time stop.
I can continue with more examples, also not involving dualing into mage, but I think that is enough.
To fear that assassin->fighter is too op is a completely false problem, he should share the same power of almost every smart dual. If an assassin->fighter is not borderline broken is only a clue that something is wrong with the assassin kit, that is way less powerful than it is supposed to be, not the ultimate fighter, but the ultimate specialized killer of the game. His backstab and his poison weapon should be his ways to do it.
If his pw disrupts and also deal a lot of damage is only normal, as he is not a mage killer, the wizard slayer is the one specialized in it.
The blackguard is already the most powerful fighter-like kit, and poison weapon for him is only one of the many things that make him powerful. Take away the poison weapon and he is still a fantastic kit.
Take it away from the assassin and he becomes less powerful than an unkitted thief almost all of the time, Less utility and only a small window between the time when he gets better backstab and the time that every dangerous enemy is immune to it. That is why his poison weapons should have no save, or save on an added bonus damage, and should stack on the few APR he can get in a round, that, and only that, can make him a killer trough all the game, he has not the apr, the gww, the good thac0 against strong enemies to be sure that the hits that he will not fail are not saved, even with a -4.
Late game my mage's spells, even with the -4 of gm, are saved by the enemies, firkraag usually fails the save after 2 or 3 spells, try with draconis...
And an assassin with his darts and thaco misses a lot against draconis, even with improved haste and 6 apr, if he hits 2 times is lucky, if draconis also fails to save is like winning the lottery.
I am talking of the single class, as I explained why duals are an other thing, they are always broken.