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Sneak Attack

MeaninglessMeaningless Member Posts: 51
edited October 2016 in Feature Requests
As most of you might know, the Sneak Attack(SA) from IWD can be used in BGEE saga, however the mechanics of it make for a kinda... weak backstab substitute.

I want to propose the folowing changes:

- The ideal is to have SA possible on every attack, as long as proper positioning is maintained.

- Sneak Attack damage value: Apparently editable via sneakatt.2da, since SA will work on every attack, value has to be drastically reduced, maybe a fixed +1 damage to replace each dice roll (so instead of rolling 6d6, a fixed +6 damage). This extra damage is not multiplied by criticals.

- Sneak Attack Positioning: Apparently the engine already checks if the character performing a SA is positioned in the back (or flank?), but if the engine can make distinction between back/flank, maybe attacks from the back could give an extra +1/2 (half) damage bonus (for example a +6 would become +9) or a plain +1 if value can't be broke into halfs.

- Backstab: SA doesn't remove or replace backstabs, but the 2 can't be used in conjunction, backstab is only used when the character is concealed, backstab uses its own dice roll/multiplier and ignores the +damage from SA. Backstab loses some of its power (use d4 instead of d6) to make up for the newly acquired strength of thief class: Sneak Attacks.

- Biggest issue with the model is that the engine doesn't seem able to apply back/flank calculation for enemies, so all of their attacks counts as SA.


For party members, thiefs can Backstab and use SA, becoming more capable during combat. This also gives room to a more accurate manipulation of strengths/weaknesses in thief kits.
IMHO ranged attacks should also do it but for 1/2 (half) the damage, if not possible, leave ranged attacks out of these mechanics.


This makes for more interesting gameplay, expand thief possibilities, and removes some power from the exploit of drink invis potion + backstab + repeat + profit.
Post edited by Meaningless on

Comments

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    I thought it's once per round not once per enemy, not so?
  • MeaninglessMeaningless Member Posts: 51

    I thought it's once per round not once per enemy, not so?

    Might as well be, can you or anybody else confirm?
    I'vent played the EE of IWD and got this info from looking around, so might be wrong or outdated. Still... Proposed changes remain pretty much the same I guess.
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    Backstabbing can be used more than once on the same enemy during the same encounter...although it usually isn't necessary, because by the time your character runs away to quaff an invisibility potion and gets back into position, the enemy is usually killed off by your other party members.
  • MeaninglessMeaningless Member Posts: 51
    There might be some confusion here, Backstab and Sneak attack are 2 different things, it was never implied both are the same or work in the same way.
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,367

    - Currently, SA can only be done once per enemy: Apparently a hardcoded restriction, has to be lifted/removed somehow and can't be bypassed by modders.

    False

    - Sneak Attack Positioning: Apparently the engine already checks if the character performing a SA is positioned in the back (or flank?), but if the engine can make distinction between back/flank, maybe attacks from the back could give an extra +1/2 (half) damage bonus (for example a +6 would become +9) or a plain +1 if value can't be broke into halfs.

    The existing mechanic is even more broken than you realize, it only applies to PC's, everyone else can Sneak Attack regardless of positioning. When I reported as a bug, it was closed as not fixable, so I wouldn't expect any change to this as possible.


    - Backstab: SA doesn't remove or replace backstabs, but the 2 can't be used in conjunction, backstab is only used when the character is concealed, backstab uses its own dice roll/multiplier and ignores the +damage from SA. Backstab loses some of its power (use d4 instead of d6) to make up for the newly acquired strength of thief class: Sneak Attacks.
    So basically, thiefs can Backstab and use SA, becoming more capable during combat. This also gives room to a more accurate manipulation of strengths/weaknesses in thief kits.
    IMHO ranged attacks should also do it but for 1/2 (half) the damage, if not possible, leave ranged attacks out of these mechanics.

    You may as well ditch the existing Sneak Attack and replace it with a Constant Melee/Ranged Hit effect for thieves, while continuing to use normal backstabs. You won't get positioning rules, but the enemies don't follow those anyway.
  • MeaninglessMeaningless Member Posts: 51
    edited October 2016
    kjeron said:


    False

    Pls inform exactly which part is false so I can correct the first post, is it once per round as smeagolheart mentioned?
    kjeron said:

    The existing mechanic is even more broken than you realize, it only applies to PC's, everyone else can Sneak Attack regardless of positioning. When I reported as a bug, it was closed as not fixable, so I wouldn't expect any change to this as possible.

    To be fair, I knew that enemies can backstab regardless of positioning, and understand the DEVs in this matter, must be hard or impossible to code enemies into following position patterns since the engine wasn't designed with that in mind, or some other similar restriction dating back to the 90's when IE was created. If the enemies can use SA at all times as well... becomes pretty unrealistic when face-to-face with a thief and he's getting bonus damage, still hmmm, thiefs needs a buff for combat, I would be willing to give them this benefit, but the party members still need to work their positioning (at core rules or above difficulty only).
    Though yes, it would be incredibly better if the enemies were made to only use SA from flank/back. But if that can't be done, enemies thieves will get a buff.
    kjeron said:


    You may as well ditch the existing Sneak Attack and replace it with a Constant Melee/Ranged Hit effect for thieves, while continuing to use normal backstabs. You won't get positioning rules, but the enemies don't follow those anyway.

    That would lead into small problems such as SA bonus damage adding to backstabs, and party members ignoring positioning as well, which is half the tactical/challenging factor of the mechanic, while for enemies it might be non-codeable, theres no reason to make party control even more meaningless than it already is, since this is a style of game that proposes use of tactics and micro managing during battles.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,367

    kjeron said:


    False

    Pls inform exactly which part is false so I can correct the first post, is it once per round as smeagolheart mentioned?
    The hard-coded part, the once per whenever can be entirely customized/removed.


    That would lead into small problems such as SA bonus damage adding to backstabs,

    Such an effect could be prevented from triggering on a backstab, so it's only ever one or the other.
  • MeaninglessMeaningless Member Posts: 51
    Thats good to know! A mod which enables both SA and backstab as usable may already be viable then, biggest problem remains the enemy positioning that allows them to repeatedly use SA regardless of positioning, if DEVs are set to not work into that I guess the topic is pretty much settled.
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  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 1,065
    @kjeron , sorry to resurrect this thread, but how would you remove the 1/enemy mechanic of sneak attacks? If I could make it a once a round only kind of thing, that would be ideal.
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,367
    edited January 2017
    @Aquadrizzt
    The default 3E Sneak Attack is the aptly named "backstab.SPL", just remove/modify it's "Immunity to Backstab" effect.
    The spell doesn't even exist in non-SoD BGEE or BG2EE, so by default there is no limit, or Crippling Strikes functionality, in those game.

    "SNEAKATT.2DA" controls the damage, Xd6, I don't know if there is a way to change the Dice Size though.
    "CRIPPSTR.2DA" controls the level that "backstab.SPL" is applied at.
    Post edited by kjeron on
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 1,065
    edited January 2017
    Awesome. Thanks @kjeron . Changing dice size isn't a big deal for me (what I'm planning uses d6s).

    Follow-up question: does opcode 303 (Backstab Every Hit) also work for triggering sneak attacks?
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,367
    @Aquadrizzt
    For Sneak Attacks it removes the positioning restriction.
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 1,065
    Fantastic! Thanks as always.
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 1,065
    Oh I just remembered my other quesion, @kjeron.

    Does Opcode 303 let you sneak attack with weapons you otherwise couldn't perform backstabs with (such as ranged weapons)?
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,367
    @Aquadrizzt
    Nope, it still results in "Your weapon is unsuitable for backstabs".
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