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Should the alignments of companion NPCs be hidden from the player?

Arising from another discussion:

The alignments of companion NPCs in Sword Coast Legends are hidden from the player. Is this a good thing?

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  • IglosnofIglosnof Member Posts: 119
    edited October 2016
    I did wonder about this alignment business the other day myself. I don't mind the fact they are there but I try to ignore them as much as I can. It's way more immersive and intriguing if you don't know what alignment someone is until it becomes obvious at some point
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    i would prefer it. having a big flashing sign that says " i'm good/evil." brakes immersion. i'd rather they make it clear where they stand with actions like mass effect and dragon age.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    In PnP, players normally have the option to conceal or lie about the alignment of their characters, especially if there is the possibility of party members working at crossed purposes. I certainly wouldn't normally tell the players the alignment of an NPC who joined their party, unless they cast an appropriate spell.
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    edited October 2016

    Going old-school, alignments must be shown. It adds to undestanding the character (although sometimes - think Jaheira - the alignment does not match the personality fully).

    This is a reason I say alignment should be shown. I'd rather know now that someone may potentially break my character's plans and ethos and try to kill me rather than have it be a surprise later.

    Plus with how easy it is to dig into the game information and pull it out then post it on the net, might as well just have it on their character sheet.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited October 2016



    Plus with how easy it is to dig into the game information and pull it out

    As far as I know, under 5th edition rules (which any new BG game would have to use) there are no mechanical effects of alignment, so there would be no reason why it would even be in the game files.

    Not that it would really matter. If a player really felt they had to know the alignment they might find it out, but not knowing might add a degree of depth and realism.

    An example where knowing a character's alignment is problematic is Bishop in NWN2. He is evil, he betrays you. No surprise there.

  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,603
    edited October 2016
    Keeping alignments hidden would be true to the way I've always played PnP (it adds to the group dynamic) however, we're talking about computer games here so:

    One big pro of knowing npcs alignments is that you can avoid the situation where a party member suddenly quits due to reputation issues - forcing you to rethink your strategies.

    Or:

    One big pro of not knowing npcs alignments is that you can end up in the situation where a party member suddenly quits due to reputation issues - forcing you to rethink your strategies.

    Personally I would prefer the latter (with the codicil that you get some hints beforehand that a party member will leave unless you can convince them to stay).
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    I think that's a pretty neat idea. It would let people take more notice of the actual character, instead of interpreting their actions based on some arbitrary thing that might not be followed by the character itself. Maybe then people would start to realize that lovable hugable Minsc is (maybe) the only joinable character that can try to brutally murder you after dialog with no warning in both games, and that he has an ability that can basically turn him against the party, regardless of his "Good" alignment.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I would say that the BG reputation is far to simplistic for a modern game anyway. I can't see it making a comeback in any future BG game.
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  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    In BG1 the minimal characterisation meant alignment helped to fill out details, but with the way more modern games handle characters, with far more dialogue and full voice acting, I don't think it is needed. The characterisation in SCL isn't as detailed as NWN2, for example, but it is still sufficent to deduce the alignments, give or take one pip.
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    Well even the alignment notes compared to characters weren't exact in NWN2. Neeshka acted far more Chaotic Neutral, but was labeled as True Neutral because the Devs wanted Qara as Chaotic Neutral to be as opposite of Sand as possible (who was Lawful Neutral and a Wizard, compared to Qara's Sorcerer.)

    Why they couldn't have two Chaotic Neutral characters, I don't know, but still...
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Well, if Neeshka's alignment had been hidden, we wouldn't have been able to criticise the character not matching the alignment. She might have been a more interesting character if we had been left to wonder if she might be chaotic evil.

    Would we have been more sympathetic to Qara if it hadn't said CN on her character sheet, and we had suspected she might be CG, and therefore genuinely misunderstood and persecuted?
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    ...You do remember what Qara's like, yes? I don't think anyone would have suspected her of being Chaotic Good.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Or CE. Would that have changed perception of the character?
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    edited October 2016
    Qara should be with Bishop as Chaotic Evil. I'd argue she's actually more evil than him: Bishop is more feral than malevolent, obsessed with his personal freedom over everything else and willing to do anything to preserve it (hence the Evil alignment) while Qara is convinced she is entitled to burn anything and anyone who remotely hurts her ego in any way. She's so great the world owes her this right.

    But even if her sheet said CG she'd still be a bitch.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    There are not party friendly spells that affect any good or evil in their AoE.
    Is not a RP reason, but at least for me is essential to know the alignment of the NPCs I have in the party, as both my parties and the enemies use those spells.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    If alignment has an impact on gameplay, then yes, I want it shown.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I don't think 5th edition has any aoe spells that have a different effect for different alignments.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    The OP was talking of Sword Coast Legends, but then others named NPCs of BG and Neverwinter.
    In a game where alignment does not have impact on the spell system or other things, like weapons that have alignment related DMG or Thac0 bonus, what I told does not apply.
    In games where alignment has impact on game mechanics it apply.
    Also 5e and its implementation in a CRPG are not the same, I don't know about Sword Coast Legends, but the CRPG implementation of Planar Ally can be alignment dependent, as summon Planetar or Deva are in BG2 or not.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited October 2016
    I was citing SCL as an example, but with the idea that the feature could be incorporated into a hypothetical future BG-style game that used 5th edition rules.

    It was I who cited NWN2 in particular, as an example of a situation where knowing character alignments seams (in my perception) to have made the NPCs shallower and more one-dimensional than they might otherwise have been.

    As for summoning a planer ally, I would say that if dialogue hasn't implied that a character is evil before they summon up an imp, then they are either very badly written, or they are taking steps to conceal their alignment. In which case there is even more reason not to put it on their character sheet (and they wouldn't give themselves away by casting an incriminating spell).

    I don't want to get into spoilers, but there is such a character in SCL.

    An idea that has just occurred to me: Information on an NPCs character sheet could be covered over like the bestiary entries in PoE. It could then be unlocked as your relationship with that NPC improves. This would give players an incentive to develop relationships with NPCs.
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  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I agree that there are drawbacks to fully voiced companions, and without full (or at least extensive) voice acting, the case for concealing alignments is weaker.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Fardragon said:

    Arising from another discussion:

    The alignments of companion NPCs in Sword Coast Legends are hidden from the player. Is this a good thing?

    Discuss:

    No. It is quite hard to work out a specific alignment when you mostly have to kill everything in sight on most occasions.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Anduin said:

    Fardragon said:

    Arising from another discussion:

    The alignments of companion NPCs in Sword Coast Legends are hidden from the player. Is this a good thing?

    Discuss:

    No. It is quite hard to work out a specific alignment when you mostly have to kill everything in sight on most occasions.
    If you are talking about SCL, most of the characters are quite well developed, despite the lack of anything resembling decent gameplay.
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    SCL does have two things of note that I like about its companions, a lady dwarf and a gold dwarf, both of which are extremely rare to come by in the Realms, it seems.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    I suppose it would give the know alignment spell some kind of useful purpose
  • former_customerformer_customer Member Posts: 111
    The Golden Rule of fiction writing is, "Show, don't tell." I would much rather discover a character through words and actions, rather than pretend I understand someone because of a line on their character sheet. I'm not a big fan of Mr. Gygax' alignment concept as a matter of philosophy, but I think it also undercuts storytelling.

    Give me a smiling, friendly teammate who seems like a good enough sort, right up until he suggests using the burning orpahage as cover for looting, rather than saving children.
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    edited October 2016
    I don't know..PoE had option to enable/disable specific information in the options. Different degrees to how much of the roleplaying reputations you were allowed to see ingame and so on. That seems to work well enough for me and would satisfy mostly everyone *shrug*

    I wouldn't enjoy removing the alignment system.

    Chaos-Law-Neutral-Good-Evil do seem integral to the setting after all.
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