Just what weapons CAN Tiax use?

chimeric

He's so severely limited in what he can wield, it ain't even funny. He gets just a few proficiencies on account of being a cleric, and one of those is Mace. But actual maces are not usable by thieves.

Low Wisdom. Because he's mad. All right. He can't backstab, either. What the heck? He's such a great NPC, but totally useless because of the limitations on the thief side. I think this is a place to step away from AD&D rules and let cleric/thieves use daggers, if not short swords. And armor - well, he can wear anything, but the thief skill are only available if it's up to studded leather. Can't change armor in a fight, either.

A difficult life it must be.

GreenWarlock

Cleric/thief is a fun combo, when you understand the synergies of the two classes. Clerics ban edged weapons on religious grounds, but are allowed to train in blunt weapons, whether a thief or not. However, in order to backstab, you need a blunt weapon that a thief could also use, and that list is just club (widely considered one of the least impressive weapons) and quarterstaff. In later games, you might find magical staves that can be used only by a mage, or by a thief with their special use-any-item skill. However, unless you can use that particular weapon without the skill, it is still not allowed for backstab.

Likewise, when you want to make the most of your thieving skills and stealth, you will want to be wearing light armor, typically some form of leather. Clerics are often played as front-line fighters going toe-to-toe with the fighters in the same armor, but that is not really an option for an effective cleric/thief.

Finally, the more aggressive fighter-like aspect of the cleric really wants a higher strength than Tiax chooses to display (as Tiax rules over all, including the DM, clearly the stats on the character sheet are those he has chosen to reveal, rather than display his true abilities...)

Tax is a lot of fun, especially with Quayle in the party too. He also has an interesting special ability, if you look carefully, which is not available to my favorite protagonist character, the Hero the Half-Orc cleric/thief.

sarevok57

if you want to backstab with tiax, give him the gauntlets of ogre power and then cast draw upon holy might on him, at level 6 cleric this will give him 20 STR, then you can use the staff of striking ( which is the most powerful weapon in the game when it comes to raw damage ) or if he can use it, the staffmace which deals 2d4+2 damage I believe, and im pretty sure that weapon counts as a staff, so he does have options, just have to experiment with him

mashedtaters

Tiax can wield ALL weapons, for Tiax RULES all!!
Just because someone else is wielding them for me vicariously means nothing.

batoor

3+ quarterstaff in Ulgoths Beard?

Skatan

As said above, I prefer to have him use staff. For most fights he wields the staff mace +2 and with STR enhancing items he gets a decent enough THAC0. I never use him for BS though, but if I would, he would still be using qstaff. If you have him weild twohanded qstaff he is usually a bit behind your tanks so he won't get hit much, but I haven't really used him as the party's only thief anyways, so I usually put him in heavier armor and don't care about the loss of thief skills.

Wowo

batoor said:

3+ quarterstaff in Ulgoths Beard?

This. He is one of the strongest backstabbers in the game.

Ardanis

GreenWarlock said:

Tax is a lot of fun

No it's not. Unless you happen to be a state worker, that is

chimeric

I didn't know it's possible to backstab with a club or a quarterstaff, and I couldn't figure it out, because IT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. And why those two exceptions, anyway? A club is pretty much the same thing as a mace, and a quarterstaff is the size of a two-handed sword - it's swung, too - but somehow the sword isn't suitable for backstabbing but the staff is. By the way, Tiax can use warhammers. I'm afraid to ask if he can backstab with those.

This is all just wrong. Clubs and staves should not be backstabbing weapons, but dual-classed thieves should be allowed to wield daggers, even if it's against standard cleric rules. Many DMs would probably allow a dagger to a cleric-thief. And what a modder can make already is a blackjack - a thieves-only club that does a little non-lethal damage and knocks the target out on a failed save.

Ardanis

Backstab can be done with any weapon that single-class thieves can use. In vanilla it was hardcoded, in EE probably not (I think, never had a need to check).

sarevok57

chimeric said:

I didn't know it's possible to backstab with a club or a quarterstaff, and I couldn't figure it out, because IT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. And why those two exceptions, anyway? A club is pretty much the same thing as a mace, and a quarterstaff is the size of a two-handed sword - it's swung, too - but somehow the sword isn't suitable for backstabbing but the staff is. By the way, Tiax can use warhammers. I'm afraid to ask if he can backstab with those.

This is all just wrong. Clubs and staves should not be backstabbing weapons, but dual-classed thieves should be allowed to wield daggers, even if it's against standard cleric rules. Many DMs would probably allow a dagger to a cleric-thief. And what a modder can make already is a blackjack - a thieves-only club that does a little non-lethal damage and knocks the target out on a failed save.

hence the reason why they made 3rd edition, to allow more flexibility, although coincidently it seems to me that too much flexibility really broke the game, but ohs wells

GreenWarlock

The club kind-of makes sense for me, as a sap or a blackjack is basically a small club that is ideal for mugging people from behind in dark alleys...

Quarterstaffs never made much sense to me as a backstab weapon, but it kind of falls out of the rules. Quarterstaffs are essentially the most basic weapon in the game, that can be used by any class. Likewise, the rules say that any weapon a thief can use, can be used for backstabbing...

I suspect you would have a hard time persuading a human DM that this is a reasonable interpretation of the rules

chimeric

How about a crossbow? Can I backstab with a crossbow? You know, kind of turn it around and scratch their backs with the trigger. Ooh yeah, a little to the right, please.

I don't know how to mod the game to enable daggers to cleric-thieves or forbid backstabbing with blunt objects, but I'm gonna make that blackjack myself, soon as I'm done with the current project.

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God

chimeric said:

I don't know how to mod the game to enable daggers to cleric-thieves or forbid backstabbing with blunt objects

I herd you don't like clubbin', so change clubs into daggers and daggers into clubs.
Den you can club when you dagger and dagger when you club

chimeric

Okay, that's pretty funny.

batoor

Perhaps not necessarily for backstabbing, but I think a staff is a reasonable weapon for Rogues/thieves in general. A good weapon for a thief masquerading as a hooded street beggar, pilgrim or otherwise infirm person. It's a discreet weapon in that way at least imo.

chimeric

The Pilgrim should be a kit... I don't know why it would be a rogue kit, a cleric is more like it... Thieves in straight AD&D are hood-wearing cant-speaking wall climbers, that's all they are. Not assassins, not anything else.

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batoor

Oh well Pilgrim was just some example out of the blue..Anyway I meant mostly in terms of what was practical for a Rogue/outlaw/thief, but yeah I know it's not relevant to discussion of AD&D specifically or IE engine game mechanics.

chimeric

Sure it's practical. I just think that we should try to fit these ideas inside class concepts more or less. That way we can take advantage of AD&D's own energy pattern besides our own ideas. Anyway, I don't want to go on, but I think blackjacks and such should be reserved for the straight thief and the assassin. Anybody can use staves - yes? - but they have no business being back-stabbing weapons.