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Canon party run for the series

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  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438
    If I do this, I'd like to stay true to form. That is, I'd only do two handed weapons and eschew shields completely. I wouldn't cop out for inconvenient situations. It's an RP thing. I'm just thinking about the situation in bg2 where the beholder shield is super useful and wonder how many situations are going to be made a -lot- more difficult not letting my main/tank use shields or one handers.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    And that is fine, as RP things are always fine. But the staff is the only 2hander that let's you use the proficiency while using a shield or DW, for someone that can reach GM is even more relevant.
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 950
    I alays consider some item mod, that create more superior shields, thst grants physical dmg reduction or status effect immunity, passiv spell effects etc.
    @gorgonzola the one handed staff use the single weapon style? Or two handed weapon style? I never try myself and i dont how is the engine use this items.
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438

    And that is fine, as RP things are always fine. But the staff is the only 2hander that let's you use the proficiency while using a shield or DW, for someone that can reach GM is even more relevant.

    I get what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that this character (concept) would never use a shield or one handed weapon (even the staff mace) even though it is technically an option with the proficiencies. I'm going to have to find another way to deal with challenges with this mind. As is, I don't know yet what I'm going to do about the beholders without that shield. I could technically give it to Jah and have her run point, but then my main will have nothing to do since it also won't be using ranged weapons.
    gorgonzola
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    edited November 2016
    Edit: deleted.
    Post edited by Gallowglass on
    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    Danacm said:


    @gorgonzola the one handed staff use the single weapon style? Or two handed weapon style? I never try myself and i dont how is the engine use this items.

    Sorry, I don't know for sure.

  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438
    Yeah, I always wonder about things like that. I naturally assume these things don't work and plan accordingly.

    I'm doing the Cav, but realizing it's harder to tool up than I thought. Because I'm dualing Imoen and (long story short) can't take another thief in my party, I basically have to beeline for Cloakwood. Once I start Cloakwood, I can get Spider's Bane, but until then, a +1 Staff is about as good as it gets. You miss a ton of decent stuff along the way that comes in handy in CW.
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 950
    If you want to be leveled up fast to reach ckoakwood early as you can, go alone to the basilisk area, hire korax the ghoul or buy mirrored eyes potion and kill all basilisks. You will get 21000 xp. After you can get your party at lvl 4-5. The exeption is imoen who will be max lvl 2.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    edited November 2016
    Edit: deleted.
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438
    Yeah, I don't want to play out of character. So, soloing a ton just to start NPCs at a higher level is a little meta for me. Anyway, I'm sure the leveling (of characters other than Imoen) will work itself out easily. I'm anticipating Cloakwood being a real challenge in terms of being equipped for it. I just won't have a lot of stuff, not doing the side stuff ahead of time. Then again, I'm not sure what I really "need", though. The hugest get by this point is Spider's Bane, which I'll have early enough. My Cav alone is holding the front line so she has the Ankheg plate from Nashkel, Belt/boots of piercing. Jah only has an ordinary staff and sling, but she's just on backup anyway, so she's safe enough with common gear.
    gorgonzola
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @Kneller - don't worry too much about maxed kit. There are lots of enemies in the Cloakwood Mine, but most are pretty soft until the final level. The toughest parts of Chapter 4 are the transition ambushes between areas, especially when you run into random wyverns without a chance to pre-buff. Throughout the Chapter, your main threats are poison and electrical attacks, so stock up on appropriate potions and spells.

    One tactical tip - for the transition ambushes in Cloakwood, you really do need two characters who are equipped for front-line melee, because you'll often face attacks from two directions at once. However, by the time you complete the Bandit Camp, you'll have a Full Plate (from Taugosz Khosann) as well as the Ankheg Plate from Nashkel, and Jaheira should find a +2 Scimitar and a +2 Club (in the second and third Cloakwood areas respectively), so you should then be adequately equipped without needing to search side-areas.
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438
    I should mention, I'm playing BG classic via EasyTutu, not EE, so I know I don't have that club. I'm pretty sure I won't have that scimitar also. Regardless, Jah is ** in staves in slings right now. I'll probably do scimitar for the next 2 *s, but I doubt I'll get much use by that point as I'll likely have the staff mace by then anyway. Anyway, if I'm lucky, I'll come across a +1 staff before CW, but I doubt even that. Even though I'm skipping all side quests until after I dual Imoen, I'm half-tempted to do Silke just for the staff. However, that's metagaming, so I won't let myself.

    You're right about the two tanks to avoid pincer attacks, though. Right now, Jah is filling that role, but not terribly great due to just having splint mail and a staff.

    I will say, playing a Cav starting with ** in staff and 2h weapons, then building towards ** in 2h swords is pretty satisfying so far. I developed the idea reading another thread that was a spoof on yet another thread theorizing on why Charname's class was really "intended" to be a bard. In the staff thread, they mentioned a bunch of (somewhat absurd and funny) supporting evidence for why Charname's first weapon skill would be staff. It was a laugh, so I decided to roll with it. :smiley:
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Kneller said:

    I should mention, I'm playing BG classic via EasyTutu, not EE, so I know I don't have that club. I'm pretty sure I won't have that scimitar also.

    Oh! I didn't realise you weren't running EE. Then no, you won't get the Scimitar or the Club. There's very little good weaponry for a Druid in the first half of the original game, that was always a problem compared to most other classes, which EE thankfully rectified.
    Kneller said:

    Anyway, if I'm lucky, I'll come across a +1 staff before CW, but I doubt even that.

    Probably not. (In EE, incidentally, there's even a +2 staff in Cloakwood!)
    Kneller said:

    Even though I'm skipping all side quests until after I dual Imoen, I'm half-tempted to do Silke just for the staff. However, that's metagaming, so I won't let myself.

    Yes, in pre-EE I'd also be very tempted either to take out Silke or to go meet the Dryad of the Cloudpeaks (to win the Club +1).
    Kneller said:

    You're right about the two tanks to avoid pincer attacks, though. Right now, Jah is filling that role, but not terribly great due to just having splint mail and a staff.

    Well at least the Full Plate from the Bandit Camp will help, but indeed there's not much you can do to improve her weaponry (within the constraints of your game-plan) until after Cloakwood.
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438

    Yes, in pre-EE I'd also be very tempted either to take out Silke or to go meet the Dryad of the Cloudpeaks (to win the Club +1).

    Lol...I don't have that either. There are NO magical clubs in vanilla BG. Can you believe it? She'll eventually have some decent staves (depending on what order I do ToSC content), but yeah, she won't get anything magical until after CW.

    I'm on the fence as to whether to keep her a 2h-er or build her a DWer through the series. I'm leaning towards 2h, but with my Cav and Sarevok (who I will eventually get/keep), that's a lot of 1h weapons falling by the way side. All I'll have on that is Minsc. However, as a druid, I think spears and staves will serve her better than daggers, scimitars and clubs.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Kneller said:

    Lol...I don't have that either. There are NO magical clubs in vanilla BG. Can you believe it?

    I was thinking that the Club +1 had always always there ... but yes, on further thought, I now recall that you're right.
    Kneller said:

    I'm on the fence as to whether to keep her a 2h-er or build her a DWer through the series.

    I usually keep Jaheira using a shield throughout the series, although I do give her staff (and usually also spear) proficiencies so that she can go two-handed when situationally appropriate.

    With no grandmastery and the slower progression and fewer total proficiencies of a multi-class, I find the cost (in time and flexibility) of building Jaheira for dual-wielding is more than it's worth. Better to build for protection with a shield, with a greater choice of weapons and two-handing when appropriate, and then rely on Greater Whirlwind when a particularly tough fight calls for high APR. With a decent shield, her AC and resistances can be good enough that no-one except dragons and bosses can do her serious damage anyway, so it doesn't usually matter if she takes an extra round (or even two) for the kill.
    Kneller said:

    All I'll have on that is Minsc. However, as a druid, I think spears and staves will serve her better than daggers, scimitars and clubs.

    Well eventually she'll have 12 proficiency points, so you can give her specialisation in all-but-one of these weapons (plus her sling, plus 1 point each in 2H and SS), provided that you don't waste (IMO) her points on dual-wielding. I find her versatile and effective that way.
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438
    I definitely don't think that SS is worth it. All it gives you is a bit of extra AC vs. missiles. I figure you're better off putting that extra point into 2h for the bonus to crits. You have me thinking twice about sword and shield, though.
    gorgonzola
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Kneller said:

    I definitely don't think that SS is worth it. All it gives you is a bit of extra AC vs. missiles. I figure you're better off putting that extra point into 2h for the bonus to crits.

    I agree, but here we're discussing Jaheira's end-ToB proficiency allocations. When you start BG2, Jaheira automatically comes with one point already allocated to SS, so you've got no choice. (Well, unless you mod her, obviously ... but that's too close to cheating for my taste.)

    Er ... again I'm thinking about BG2ee when I say that Jaheira automatically has a forced point in SS. But so far as I recall, the same was true in pre-EE, wasn't it?
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    About building Jaheira for BG2 the fact that there she can obtain early a +1 scimitar and a club +3 that deals also elemental damage is relevant. Jaheira with a 2 hander has 2.5APR when reaches lev 13, if she DW the APR boost tob 4.5, 80% more. And in my experience even if is never completely not useful the AC in late SoA and ToB become less relevant, the enemies will hit often even against a negative one.
    As I always equip my Jaheira with some STR enhancing item the only way that I see her competitive 2HW is with Impaler or later Ram, with their massive damage, and even so she is behind the DW one as damage output, but very dangerous in very late game as Belm does not hit the bosses and the GWWs solve the APR problem for the tough battles.
    2Hander Jaheira is perfectly viable, but in my experience, as 2 pips for staves are not a problem, if she can DW is better. And there are enough pips in the game to give her specialization in staves, sling, club and scimitar ( the latter is not really needed, one is enough as in late game she can use Ram and GWW to hit what the +3 club can not) and enough pips in DW and 2HW.
    That way she can use a shield, not only useful for AC, as there are shields that give resistances and immunities, DW for mexed damage or use a 2 hander, eventually with GWW, you can have 3 Jaheiras at the price of one, and use in each situation the one that suits better.

    About the proficiency in SS i also think that is a joke, an almost wasted point.
    And I almost always change that proficiency into something other when the game forces it to me in an NPC, without feeling that I am cheating, while I am much more reluctant in re arranging stats or operating other changes in NPCs.
    In this kind of things what is cheating and what is not imo is very subjective. The developers often make changes that have much more impact, like the new EE enchanted weapons in early BG1 for druids, or the over leveled charname that is imported from SoD. But no one feels to cheat if he uses that weapons or reduces charnames XP to a pre SoD level. A change in a proficiency has less effect on the game, and the whole NPC is changed very little, he is just 1 pip in advantage in reaching the build that you want according to your preferred playstyle. And that NPC could have been made in that way, you don't do something that is illegal in the game, only create an alternate Jaheira with different, but legit, proficiency allocation.
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438

    (Well, unless you mod her, obviously ... but that's too close to cheating for my taste.)

    I actually don't mind using SK to mod the BG2 npcs to match their proficiencies to what I had them as in BG1. It's one of the few hacks with which I don't have a moral problem.

    @gorgonzola Ok, so if you DW her, obviously you're thinking Belm in the off hand to get an extra attack with the main hand weapon. But what's a decent main hand weapon for the druid? The only thing I'm seeing pre-ToB that could possibly fit the bill would be Blackblood, though I'm not super impressed with it. What am I missing?
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438
    And I have to admit, I cheated. BGT allocates proficiency points on it's own due to the conversion. In BG1, Jah starts with ** in blunts which BGT moves to clubs. I SK'd that to staves figuring I would do a 2h weapon build for her. After this, I sent them back to clubs and am going to have her at ** in scimitars by the end of BG1. From there, I'll go DW. I figure, it's only a technical cheat because of all the game I've played so far this run, it only would have been easier with a club instead of a staff as she would then also have had a shield.

    :smiley:
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    Kneller said:

    Yes, in pre-EE I'd also be very tempted either to take out Silke or to go meet the Dryad of the Cloudpeaks (to win the Club +1).

    Lol...I don't have that either. There are NO magical clubs in vanilla BG. Can you believe it? She'll eventually have some decent staves (depending on what order I do ToSC content), but yeah, she won't get anything magical until after CW.

    I'm on the fence as to whether to keep her a 2h-er or build her a DWer through the series. I'm leaning towards 2h, but with my Cav and Sarevok (who I will eventually get/keep), that's a lot of 1h weapons falling by the way side. All I'll have on that is Minsc. However, as a druid, I think spears and staves will serve her better than daggers, scimitars and clubs.
    What about Silke's +1 quarterstaff, in Beregost? You didn't side with her against the merchants, did you?
    JuliusBorisov
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Kneller said:

    Ok, so if you DW her, obviously you're thinking Belm in the off hand to get an extra attack with the main hand weapon. But what's a decent main hand weapon for the druid? The only thing I'm seeing pre-ToB that could possibly fit the bill would be Blackblood, though I'm not super impressed with it. What am I missing?

    Well if you're going to build her that way, then not only is Blackblood a pretty good weapon (+3 can hit almost everything, and elemental bonus damage is often very handy), but also Gnasher (+2 can hit most things in SoA athough not so useful in ToB, and the splinter damage which continues for 4 rounds is great for disabling casters as well as adding considerably to the total damage output). They're both fine mainhand weapons for SoA, better than most bladed weapons of the same enchantment levels, and have the added advantage that few enemies have crushing resistance (whereas slashing and piercing resistance is more common).

    In my own current run I'm now in late-SoA, and I continue to have Jaheira in the lead slot and using a shield. She's using Belm +2 mainhand to mow down weaker enemies more quickly, and switches to Blackblood when she needs +3 and/or elemental damage against tougher opponents. With Iron Skins and a heavy shield, she's taking no damage at all in most fights, and is drawing most of the enemy fire away from my less heavily-protected companions, so she's doing a fine job of tanking even though her kill-rate is unspectacular. In ToB, mainhanding Belm will be less useful, but Blackblood will remain effective against most enemies and she'll have multiple Greater Whirlwinds (and Impaler, and later the Spectral Brand and the Staff of the Ram) for tackling more serious opposition.
    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    edited November 2016
    Kneller said:



    @gorgonzola Ok, so if you DW her, obviously you're thinking Belm in the off hand to get an extra attack with the main hand weapon. But what's a decent main hand weapon for the druid? The only thing I'm seeing pre-ToB that could possibly fit the bill would be Blackblood, though I'm not super impressed with it. What am I missing?

    @Gallowglass has already told about clubs, blackblood is not the best weapon in the game, but is a good weapon.
    Let me add that the bulk of the damage comes from STR, she needs an enhancer, better a good belt,n but the gauntlets are fine in SoA, from specialization and from other items not related to the weapon itself.
    You gain 2 APR, the 80% more.
    Let me compare

    Impaler 1d6 (3.5) + 13 + lets say 10 dmg not weapon dependent (it vary according to the equipment, but it can even be more). Total x attack 26,5
    APR 2.5 so 66.25 average/round.

    Blackblood + Belm
    Blackblood 1d6 (3.5) +6 (3 are elemental acid and that is good for disruption) 18.5dmg , Belm 1d8 (4.5) + 2 total 16.5.
    APR 4.5 (1 with Belm) so 84.75 average/round. 27% more, even with the bonus 10dmg of Impaler, before Impaler or Ram there is no comparison, probably 75% more, as your best weapon is Rym.
    And if you get to have more than 10 dmg not dependent from the weapon, using STR, proficiency and gauntlets is doable, the benefit is even more.
    Switching to shield or Ram+GWW with no problem when needed.
    Best as damage and best as flexibility.

    Edit corrected an error in calculations.
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438
    Yeah, I'm with dual wielding her with scimitars and clubs. After that is covered, I'll branch into 2h weapons and style and she should be getting HLAs at that point.

    I'm guessing I shouldn't bother with the third pip in twf, though.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    You can live without.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    edited November 2016
    Of course you can live without the third * in dual-wielding, but I don't recommend it. Against enemies with reasonable AC (which most have later on), you'll hardly ever hit anything with the off-hand stroke, so you're negating half the advantage of dual-wielding.

    (Incidentally, this is why @gorgonzola 's calculations above are sadly misleading - wrongly assuming that every stroke will hit will inevitably produce exaggerated results.)

    Edit: spelling.
    gorgonzola
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438
    I was considering that. The difference is magnified based on the idea that all attacks hit, which is of course not what happens. However, all attacks will likely miss equally (all other things being equal) with the off-hand weapon hitting 10% less often (20% with only two pips). If the damage gap between her viable one handed vs. two handed weapons was greater, I think a case could made for the 2h weapons. But, with Belm and imp. haste, she'll be at 9apr, as opposed to 5apr with a 2h weapon. GWW will change things, but she should have at least ** in a 2h weapon by then.
    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    The fact that I am using mainly 3-5 people parties and efficient leveling strategies make my usual Jaheira be higher level than a 6 people party one. But she hits often with the off hand. And some of the late game enemies that have very good AC need better enchantment than the +2 of Belm. But at that point I have Ram and GWW to deal with them, DW is for the regular foe. Also the fact that she gets usually one of the best STR belts helps to boost her thac0 of 4 points and gauntlets and helm/ioun stone to get an other couple of points. Even with only 2 points in DW her off hand thac0 gets quite fast in negative values, with 3 is better, and the 3rd is welcomed, but not desperately needed. I also use Doom and/or GM when I want my party to hit often.
    With a Jaheira of lower level and not equipped with the best items she probably loose some points of thac0 and the things can be different, that 3-4 points less can make the difference.
    I usually go for the 3rd * in DW, but I don't rush for it, in some runs UI take it after the 2nd * in scimitar, useful when she switch to Belm and shield to tank, but getting specialization only in staff or in spear there are enough pips.

    My calculations assumed that all the hits land successfully, and it is not true. But you have to know the AC of the enemy to know the real in game percentages. But also a Jaheira with shield or a 2hander don't hit always, with a good 2 hander she will hit more often as the weapon has better enchantment, but with the help of spells that buff the party, doom the enemy and with the help of thac0 enhancing items I don't have that big problem of DW Jaheira missing a lot.

    I suppose that the playstile is important, my DW Jaheira is effective because she suits well my own style, with mine even Haer Dalis, that uses rogue Thac0, hits often, if my party start to miss too often I rethink the whole battle and buff better.
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 438
    @gorgonzola I don't think you're wrong with favoring dw. 9 apr hasted vs. 5 apr hasted is pretty much a no brainer. 9 apr hasted is basically like a gww effect for as long as the spell lasts. I don't think the enchantments are really any better with 2h weapons though. You can get Belm and blackblood pretty quickly, and those are +2 and +3 respectively. You can get a +4 staff from Ribald pretty quickly, but it's vanilla otherwise and blackblood trumps it. I wish the 2h weapons were better balanced though.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    I am not wrong, but also @Gallowglass is right, and in a such complex game this is not a paradox.
    Belm is +2 and has a penalization of 2 or 4 if you use it in off hand, depending on how many points you have in dual welding style, upgraded ram is +5. In late game there is a problem against good AC enemies, Belm will hit less often. it will hit with 5 or 7 worst thac0, depending on the pips in DW.
    Switching to Ram and GWW is a solution, but GWW are limited and last just a round, you can win the boss battle with it, but not take down the many fire giants or deal with other large number of enemies with good AC you find in some areas, not to talk of the final battle.

    In my playstyle I boost the STR of jaheira the best I can, not only to boost a damage that is carried with all the hits, but also to boost the thac0 and address the problem. And I have enough casters to use spells that boost the party and lower the enemy defense. I often don't build the hammer because I prefer to have 2 items that boost STR instead of one that boost it more and I never have charnames with super natural STR. My playstile is oriented to make Haer Dalis, Jan and Aerie effective in mlee, Jaheira's off hand benefit from that. So I don't have the problem that Gallowglass addresses. But the problem is real and with other play styles, where the good boosting items are concentrated on other NPCs, there is less magic power so spells like GM must be spared for the main battle and a more point and click approach is used, the things can be completely different and factoring the percentage of missing can make the calculations that I made misleading.
    Gallowglass
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