Canon party run for the series

Kneller

I've never completed the game with a canon party, and I want to take a crack at it. Just to be clear, I mean Imoen, Khalid, Jah, Minsc, and Dynaheir for BG1 and Minsc, Jah, Sarevok, Yoshi->Imoen for BG2. The other BG2 slots will be filled by random NPCs for their quest, but that's it. I'm half tempted to keep Jan just because I like his character, but then again, maybe not.

I've tried to play with it before, but I always get hung up on the PC's class. My main problem with it is during BG1. The front line is covered well enough with Minsc and Jah. Khalid is an archer (well, it's what he sucks the least at) for ranged support, and the magic is more than covered. It definitely hurts to lose Imoen as a thief once I dual her over, but it doesn't make it worth playing a thief through the whole series.

For BG2, there's plenty of people to add to fill out the party, so I'm not worried about complementing there. At that point, I'm thinking about what is just fun to play, has some utility, but isn't a second stringer. Also, I'm playing as a human or half-elf. This is for completely different reasons, but not worth getting into this thread. My thoughts on various options:

Bard - a lot of different things to do, but definitely a second stringer role. Even a blade is only a partial catch up.
Mage - Eventually, everything has 95% MR and super low saves, so their utility is limited. Basically, Imoen can cover this well enough on her own
Paladin/Cav - Do I need another front-liner? I have three already by BG2?
Cleric/Ranger or Fighter/Cleric (multi or dual) - I like the idea of having some divinity in the group, but enemy mages are pretty liberal with DM, so there go the buffs. And, there is nothing they can do with offensive magic that a mage can't do better.

At this point, though I'm not really feeling anything strongly in particular, I'm kinda tossed between a half-elf cleric multi (either fighter or ranger), maybe a human dual (ranger/beserker) to a cleric, or a Cav, just to have some divinity in the party (even though that's of pretty limited usefulness) and it's pretty much the only thing that's not redundant. I know the ranger/cleric thing is pretty cheese, but I actually like it more for the stealth and early start on TWF than the ironskins. Anyway, I'm open to other suggestions.

So, yeah, any ideas? What has good synergy with this party plan? And, how do I survive (i.e. traps and locks) Imoen catching up to her thief level in BG1 should I not play a thief (and don't want to cheese by sending a paired party member into a house before dropping them from the party so I can take a thief)? Thanks.

Danacm

If you plan with jan he can cover arcane magic, but magic is always good have more so a bard or a sorcerer/wild mage/specialist mage is good choice. If you feel enough arcane specialist, than try a cleric kit, because without multi or dual class you can focus on spellcasting and not melee or an avanger druid. And the archer is an option too, its fit to your party well if every role is filled.

Kneller

But what can you do with a Cleric? They're decent for bg1, but once the DMs start coming out, all that pre-battle buffing goes to waste. They don't have that much control, and mages have them beat for offense. That's doubly so if you multi since your level is also going to lag (making enemy DMs more potent).

Danacm

There are good summons, and lot of spellslots for CC. Yes a mage can do better cc and better summons especially in late game. Nowdays i download a icewind dale spells for bg mod and play with shapeshifter, the druid high level spells are great in vanilla and better with mods.
But if you want to be fit almost every role and not to specialize, than go blade, that class can fit everything in the party, use wands, amulets etc to be strong in every fights, not as strong as a specialized mage or warrior but close.

Kneller

I did consider a blade. My main gripe with it is that anything it can do (aside from lore and songs), there is someone else in the party who can do it better. He's the protagonist, but doesn't really shine.

And if a mage is all around better than a Cleric, one might as well just play a mage.

Danacm

Blade can be strong fighter, prot from magic weapon, mirror image, etc and tenser for fighter thaco and brutal hp but less apr. But for some mintues. If you plan to not rest every corner, a wand user is capable damage dealer with fire, frost, lightning wands and use cc with paralization etc wands.
To be protagonist i think you can play it as a support like a general who behind the frontline. But use a mage or sorcerer than, its the strongest classes.

Kneller

I like your idea of a (military) general style of role. It makes sense considering I have a strong enough front line in both games. It almost helps make a case for a bard. If they had an archer version of a blade, I might be sold.

I considered a sorc. The most tempting thing there is no spell memorization, which I hate. I'd rather have fewer things I can do on command than a ton of things, a few of which I have to prep specifically ahead of time. I always thought the wild mage was a partial catch up with NRD. I don't see the sorc being all that special in BG1, though. Also, this is still magic overkill for BG1 and not really necessary for bg2.

Regardless, it seems like magery is the only worthwhile thing to do from the back lines.

Danacm

Archery is fine too. An archer is so strong in party, use crossbows in bg2 tob and you can hit everything.

Kneller

Yeah, but that's kind of a point and click role. There's not much to it in terms of gameplay. It's not very general-like.

Danacm

Than try the real general a priest of helm diamond formation for your party, you will be second line. Use buff to your front and debuff your enemies. Command, holy smight, silence early, harm, holy word, sunray and hla spells later. Animate dead is so strong with cleric, aerial servant later. If really needed buff up, use seeking sword from helm speciality to give more apr and go melee.

Its just ideas, if you never tried a pure cleric. But definately somewhat weaker than sorcerer in terms of raw damage if you use sorcerer and arcane casters to deal dmg. A sorcerer, a mage or a druid is fill well this role btw.

mashedtaters

Have you considered a human fighter dualed to cleric (level 9), wielding hammers? Very useful in BG1, even with Jaheira/Minsc/Khalid.
You will dual in BG2 sometime after you leave the dungeon, and get your fighter powers back pretty quickly. Also fits the general role nicely.
One of my favorite combos.

unavailable

Kneller said:

I did consider a blade. My main gripe with it is that anything it can do (aside from lore and songs), there is someone else in the party who can do it better. He's the protagonist, but doesn't really shine.

And if a mage is all around better than a Cleric, one might as well just play a mage.

Haer Dalis can't exactly be duplicated legally, but he's about as good as hitting things as the ranger and fighter multis really, at least until chapter 6. But like I said, he gets the elf bonus to hit, and specialization in short swords. Our party is at 2 million exp each, and haer thac0 base is only 3 worse than solaufien (the companion mod where he's f/m. It's true that sola will eventually pull ahead in terms of thac0, but it's only the underdark where enemies have good armor I find. His chaos blade does -2 dexterity damage on his, which lets him cut through drow like an knife through porridge.

Kneller

I'm not saying that bards are chopped liver, but they are definitely a second string back liner. Out of everything, it seems like a sorc would be the best foundation for leadership and the back line, maybe a wild mage for fun factor. I wish a Cleric could pick up the slack, but I don't see a good strategy for this.

unavailable

Kneller said:

I'm not saying that bards are chopped liver, but they are definitely a second string back liner. Out of everything, it seems like a sorc would be the best foundation for leadership and the back line, maybe a wild mage for fun factor. I wish a Cleric could pick up the slack, but I don't see a good strategy for this.

How about a shaman? Can just release the hounds on everyone and have your whole team flinging missles and magic.

Kneller

So, I've been doing some research on this. As much as I'm looking at function, I'm also considering what makes sense for the premise and plot (even though both are riddled with holes and inconsistencies). That's partly why I'm going human or half-elf (the age thing). Anyway, I read some old threads that actually made a strong case why the PC couldn't possess divine magic (i.e. cleric, paladin, or ranger). Basically, it had to do with Ao prohibiting any deity from interfering with Bhaalspawn. Therefore, developing any kind of divine spellcasting would be considered a favor from the gods and therefore is prohibited.

I think this made a much stronger case for an arcane caster. I'm liking the sorcerer more for both story reasons (naturally manifesting magical powers) and functional reasons (not having to deal with spell memorization). The spells would be less specialized, which makes sense for someone generally running things from the rear. I'm not keen on how "soft" magic users are, but something has to give.

For similar reasons, this also makes a strong case for the wild mage. NRD is my most favorite spell in the game. Then again, if one is looking to actually get through the game, rather than have a sex change after your money magically vanishes while a cow is summoned and dropped on your enemy, it's probably not the best of choices.

I'm still deciding between the two, though it leaves me with a back line for BG1 that's -all- mage (PC, Dyn, and eventually Imoen). I'm leaning towards the sorc, though. I'm reading up a bit on spell picks, and downloaded Roman Grigoriev's guide, but I'm seeing pretty varied perspectives on spell picks. Some of the spells that are sworn by some are considered to be a waste of a pick for others. I'm not necessarily looking for a full breakdown of what every pick should be, but (per level) are there any absolute, universal must-haves for picks?

Also, what do you do in BG1 after you dual Imoen at level 7 until she gets her thief levels back? I figure, you're just after cloakwood, but before DT, WWI, and all other places with tons of experience to level her up, but these places also require some good thieving so as to not get torn up by traps. Keep in mind, that at this point, I'm sticking with Jah, Khalid, Minsc, Dyn, and Immy, so I won't drop anyone for a thief temp. I can put off getting Minsc and Dyn for a while if it helps her level faster in the early stages, but I don't see this helping much.

Thanks.

Danacm

Hm divine spells from a god is not interfere in terms of AO prohibiting. It means intervencion directly or by the gods champions. The druid example can gain spells from the Nature itself (btw it is from a god too but manifesting to the nature). And magic is all from the wave arcane and even divine magic. If the wave is collapse in an area nobody can use magic, or saw the spellplague event etc.

Francois

Presently I am playing a FMT. I like it because it gives the feeling of being a polyvalent adventurer who's always ready to do any cool stuff. It's someone who learns from all his companions and even if he's not as good in any specific task he is the most self-reliant. I like to have more than one thief especially in early BG1. You and Imoen can focus on different skills at first, but eventually you'll have more than enough. You would also get HLA traps.

Speaking of canon party I would also consider Aerie in BG2 to be canon with Minsc.

mashedtaters

Sorcerer spell picks depend mostly on play style. But for BG2, definitely Greater Malison, Breach, Skull Trap, Lower Resistance. For BG1, I like Spook and Melf's Acid arrow (for trolls in bg1 and bg2). Everything else is play style. I love CloudKill for
Sorcerers, but so many people hate it.

Edit:
One more piece of advice. The guide you downloaded is aimed at succeeding in in ToB. This is nice, but I, and many others here, don't play all the way through ToB (mostly because our restartitus is so bad). Designing your character with the end game in mind...and then not even playing the end game...while still fun...isn't really necessary. Choose what spells you like. You will find that most spells are useful in some way (when you first get them, at least). There are a few duds, like find familiar, as picks for sorcerers, but otherwise you can't really go wrong.

ineth

Also keep in mind that many Sorcerer spell pick guides are designed for soloing the game, thus they try to make the spell picks as varied and comprehensive as possible, instead of choosing only the "best" or "most powerful" spells.

If you play with a party, though, your sorc doesn't have to cover all bases - so you are more free to specialize, and stick to spells that are highly effective in most battles.

No need to pick spells that are only situationally useful, if a party member of another class already covers those tasks.

Kneller

@Danacm I think there's plenty of room for interpretation as to where the line should be. I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but my perspective after reading about Ao is that gods granting miracles to Bhaalspawn crosses that line.

As for the sorc, I started the character, but I'm not feeling terribly connected to it. Maybe I'm just not that into dedicated magic users. I was starting to think about a monk, but they take quite a while to come into their own and their AC, never gets that good.

I dunno. Maybe I'll should be liberal with Ao and run a Cav or something.

Danacm

Kneller said:

@Danacm I think there's plenty of room for interpretation as to where the line should be. I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but my perspective after reading about Ao is that gods granting miracles to Bhaalspawn crosses that line.

As for the sorc, I started the character, but I'm not feeling terribly connected to it. Maybe I'm just not that into dedicated magic users. I was starting to think about a monk, but they take quite a while to come into their own and their AC, never gets that good.

I dunno. Maybe I'll should be liberal with Ao and run a Cav or something.

Cavalier is fine if you never played with it. I played fighter types a lot, its boring after a while, but one or two run can be fine. Nowdays i liked shapeshifter, it can cast spells, fight as a weaker fighter but u enjoy the class with iwd spell mod, and i modified the werewolf form a little bit.

Kneller

I've played one before. A good party party leader and a solid fighter/tank. A lot of good options for loadouts. What order is good for weapon profs, do you think? I don't think there are any must haves for bg1 really. There's something decent in each of the swords. If I have Minsc with me (twf), he'll get the best one handers. 2h swords are obvious, but what else is fun for a paladin?

Kneller

Also, in 2e is it possible to be a paladin to an ideal (like clerics supposedly can) instead of a god?

Francois

Hammer is good, because there's a +2 you can get early in BG1, then a +3 in SoD and finally there's Crom Faeyr in BG2. Eventually you could dual wield Crom F and the Paladin bastard sword from Watcher's keep. Mace is useful for the Mace of disruption in BG2, but I usually give that to Minsc.

Kneller

Because I have Minsc for the one -handers, I was kind of toying with the idea of making the Cav exclusively a two hander fighter. 2h weapon style, staves, spears, 2h swords, halberds. I'd totally have to give up on shields, though, so it might be more annoying than fun. Any thoughts?

Francois

For 2h I always go with swords, but staff is also good. You can get the Staff +4 pretty early in BG2. You can start with 2h sword then also include staves and eventually halberds for the Ravager. I think shields are not that useful in the long run. I would also start with longbow and make sure you have digh Dex for it and to compensate for losing the shield.

Danacm

Shields only if you want an rp run, not that useful shields in the game. Warhammers are good choice against undeads, two handed sword, axes, halberds are you need and bastard swords but this is last, because hard to get good one early on. I may try undead hunter for rp run, with mace, warhammer and shield

If you want, i can spoiler the names of good weapons but i think you know them.

Ever play with wizard slayer rebalancing mod ? Cause it can be fun, just use a lots of weapons with passives for immunities and actives for spell effects.

Kneller

I know most of the weapons through the series, but I've never played an exclusive two hander character. Twf has always been a more versatile loadout in my experience, but I've never really dabbled with two handers. Also, there have been some shields that have been absolute life savers on my main tank at times. Especially since my PC is my main tank, I want it to be well protected.

Also, I'd be playing a Cav so I wouldn't take bow.

Rp-wise, I was thinking of starting with ** in staves and 2hf, putting my next 2 in 2h sword for the spider sword, then I guess spear and halberds (not sure which order, but it probably doesn't matter). I'm going to have a ton of extra *'s eventually.

Danacm

The easiest to reach +3-4 enchanted weapons is axes, two handed swords, halberds, long swords.

Kneller

Yeah, but that's way down the road, by then I'll have all 2h maxed out and then some. It's just how I will fare getting to that point.

gorgonzola

Francois said:

staff is also good. You can get the Staff +4 pretty early in BG2. You can start with 2h sword then also include staves and eventually halberds for the Ravager. I think shields are not that useful in the long run.

And you can use a staff and a shield as soon as you find the staff that becomes mace when welded, but retains the staff proficiency. If you can find 2 you can even dual weld staves.
For those particular battles where AC is crucial, the particular effect of a shield is needed or the maximum APR is preferred to a better weapon they are viable alternatives to Ryn->Ram.